'National College first' build - incredibly cheesy

[Strategist83]

It has become a very popular build for the science advantage it gives - although of course in a real game against opponents smarter than the current excuse for an AI (such as online), the instant College build is suicidal.

What is less discussed is how incredibly cheesy this build is as a concept. 'National College' implies that there is a *nation* in the first place. A 5,000 inhabitant primitive town in the BC's does not constitute a nation. Just like how a such primitive upstart society does not yet have an idea of 'who they are as a nation', ie. the national/heroic epics. Notice what the Heroic Epic icon actually shows? It's the US marines on Iwo Jima planting the flag - meaning the icon belongs in the Industrial Era, when the US has become an actual nation.

The real problem with the College, then - as with all the other national wonders - is how it becomes almost impossible to get them built in a game that is competitive on any sort of level: You're required to basically chop your own one leg off by seriously hindering expansion for a huge number of rounds while you are constructing required buildings in every single city. Then, and only then, are you allowed to construct the very expensive national wonder which, due to how quickly the wonder cost increases with each additional city, can begin to rival world wonders for cost. The Heroic Epic seems especially problematic: Having to pay upkeep for a Barracks in every single city when many of these cities will likely never produce a unit is particularly bad.

They need to revamp the national wonder system. I suppose not much is to be done to stop the silly one-city National College joke build (which, after all, is not problematic in itself but simply due to the AI's incompetence) but at least they should allow players with an actual 'nation' to construct the wonders at a more moderate cost. It might make sense to ease up on the 'X in EVERY city' requirement and simply allow players to construct the national wonder once player has, say, five of the required building or the building in every city - whichever is smaller. Granted, the rules shouldn't necessarily be loosened so much that every nation will have every national wonder regardless of specialization, but the current rules are too restrictive, with the National College being apparently the only national wonder players ever build, and that only as a cheesy one-city science slingshot exploit.

 

[Kyroshill]

agreed.... should be "build X in Y number of cities" and it should scale with map size

 

[comablack]

the NC first build is BAD in single and multi
sure it might a nice early since boost, but a expand to 3 then libx3 NC then expand to 5 build will overtake the science output rather quickly

for heroic epic, sell the barracks in every city after you built it

 

[MkLh]

It's true that national wonders are extremely expensive and weak - except the College. It's another design decision that is hard to understand. In Civ4 NWs were really powerful and I don't remember people complaining about it. So what was the point of doing things like reducing National Epic from +100% to +25%? I'm quite sure NC also will be nerfed to uselessness soon.

 

[Kyroshill]

for heroic epic, sell the barracks in every city after you built it

You wouldn't keep any barracks??

If you're going to spend the effort building them, I'd think you would want to keep barracks in your military production cities

 

[Nares]

A 5,000 inhabitant primitive town in the BC's does not constitute a nation. Just like how a such primitive upstart society does not yet have an idea of 'who they are as a nation', ie. the national/heroic epics.

Nonsense. The Pyramids were built and their builders probably forgotten by the time you would complete the national college in-game.

 

[joyous_gard]

lol, this will be post that successfully gets National College nerfed. Don't hate the player, hate the game. They made a ridiculous game.

In designing the game, they didn't go for realism or any semblance of historical actuality. So players are playing with the rules of the game. Stop changing the ruleset. Their patches have been largely reactionary and CYA. Oh, saving SP is bad? We won't allow that. Oh, too many people are using the honor SP? We will make it worse. Oh, people are using libraries to advance in tech? We will strip out their usefulness. Oh some people say that Golden Age is too long? We will knock that down a notch.

The game is nonsense war game with some leftover buildings from the previous Civilization games. The nonsense, make-believe feeling of playing it is part of what makes Civ V a crappy game. I am used to that now and don't really need any new rule changes.

 

[Deussu]

Hmm, might not be a bad idea to incorporate a minimum amount of libraries etc. for national wonders, scaled to map size of course. Duel would require 2 of the said building, Tiny 3, Small 4, Standard 5, etc.

Might pass this idea on to the mod boards.

 

[MkLh]

Hmm, might not be a bad idea to incorporate a minimum amount of libraries etc. for national wonders, scaled to map size of course. Duel would require 2 of the said building, Tiny 3, Small 4, Standard 5, etc.

Might pass this idea on to the mod boards.

Yeah, then we would have one opening option (an early NC) less. That would be great as there are now too many of them.

 

[Celevin]

Yeah, then we would have one opening option (an early NC) less. That would be great as there are now too many of them.

When it dominates most other options in most situations, removing it actually opens up more strategies.

 

[UWHabs]

Want to get rid of the NC-first build? Move it to the next tier of techs. Put it in Philosophy, and suddenly it becomes a whole lot worse

 

[hix]

I don't know if a strategy that doesn't really work on the higher levels can be considered overpowered.

Immortal and above, NC start can be disastrous, I am usually forced to expand or die, at least on deity.

It seems to me to be a pretty good trade-off for vertical or horizontal power.

 

[trueblue]

yeh lets change a perfectly viable strategy.


the trade off is there. build the nc or build settlers.

 

[trueblue]

yeh lets change a perfectly viable strategy.


the trade off is there. build the nc or build settlers.

 

[Elenhil]

The whole idea behind ciV gameplay design is to give smaller civs more or less equal chance compared to big civs. SP and golden age cost scaling speaks for itself. absence of fixed 'build >x buildings' targets a la cIV follows the same decision.

 

[rkay316]

National college is the least of this games problems.

 

[code9]

Hmm i'm not sure what to think on this matter. However, if what the OP is proposing was possible, then I'd agree, however it's not, because i'm not sure you can have a "if A or B then allow" in a game mod (ie, there is no OR).

 

[EndoConvert]

There are a lot of problems with this game, but the National College is not one of them. On Immortal and Deity, you usually have to expand or die, so insta-College definitely involves a tradeoff.

Also, your contention that ancient people had no concept of "nation" is just flat out wrong. Ancient nations were much smaller than they are now, but people definitely had a sense of themselves (those "of the tribe") and others (those "outside the tribe").

 

[qwerty25]

Do you think they should give you guys more hammers in the game overall???

 

[Tabarnak]

NC can be build with a minimum of population also. Let's say 6. Growing at 6 pop in capital can take time. So it adds a penalty to wait for NC first in capital.

Player may expand first with a liberty tree strategy for going to NC faster later, or going for Tradition to let capital grow faster for NC first, or going settlers also but with a slower time to reach NC with multiple cities. Sounds like a good rock-paper-scissor move for me.

This gives more balance between early grow vs hammers and between Tradition vs Liberty.

But it think the cost of NC should not scale from # of cities with this idea.