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National Park dilemma- to chop or not to chop at your Capital

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Sephlock, Aug 21, 2007.

  1. Sephlock

    Sephlock Chieftain

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    Maybe its just me, but it seems like in BTS I tend to start off in heavily forested areas (I play primarily on "Big and Small). The problem is that I can never find a potential site for a city that has anywhere near as many nearby forest tiles as my original city started off with.

    So... should I leave the forests alone for a future National Park? Should I make a worker and research bronze working first thing so I can fuel an early game explosion? Should I wait until mathematics and THEN chop?
     
  2. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    keeping a forest around for 5000+ years so you can get maximum value from a late game wonder is, I think, a big error. National park belongs in any big city, noy just the capitol besides a forest preserve has a resonable chance to bring forests back when you need them.

    Get bronze, enslave your people and chop forests. They'll forgive you.
     
  3. jray

    jray Chieftain

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    How exactly does this work? Do new forests only sprout up on unimproved adjacent tiles, like the existing passive mechanism already in the game? Do roads/railroads still decrease this probability?

    So how does this super-free-specialist-city thing work in practice? Do you keep a handful of forested/jungled tiles around your target city and build the basic buildings, wait for the tech to build Forests Reserves, then go pillage all your roads and improvements to encourage them to spread? It seems a little far-fetched to me that this could be more beneficial than just developing the city as normal. Maybe it's more effective on higher difficulty levels with more stringent health limits or something.
     
  4. Unthinking Pain

    Unthinking Pain Chieftain

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    Personally, what I do with a forested capital depends entirely on what I find around it. If I find the capital has heavy forest + at least 1-2 good food resources AND I have at least 1-2 good spots for commerce cities, I leave the forests alone (maybe chopping 1-2 and replacing with mines at an opportune time for the extra :hammers: from chopping).

    I do this now because the National Park rocks. Until National Park, my capital is a production center for my empire (really, really good one with Bureaucracy). With Replaceable Parts, production ramps up. With Biology, the lumbermilled production builds the National Park as I rip down all the mills and replace with Preserves.

    Can't do it every game, but it's been very effective in the right setup.

    Forgot to add - I would never count on the spread rate of forests, enhanced or not. Keep them or forget about them, but no middle of the road stuff :D
     
  5. sneaky

    sneaky Chieftain

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    I normally just build the National Park in a city I settled late in the game and especially for the purpose.
     
  6. Sephlock

    Sephlock Chieftain

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    Basically they only appear on unimproved tiles (though I think roads don't count as improvements in this case).

    Not sure about the pillaging thing, I remember in Civ3 (I think it was Civ3) there was this whole issue with tiles being "flagged" as improved and therefore NEVER becoming forested.... w/e. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me will come along.
     
  7. axident

    axident Chieftain

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    Find some crappy tundra city with some forests and spam preserves there, building the Park there too. Early chops accelerate you WAY too much for you not to do any of it.
     
  8. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    I had a late settled city with some forest tiles. At the point I was at I put lumbermills in them and later changed them to forest preserves.
     
  9. Tennyson

    Tennyson Chieftain

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    After a couple of strategic chops, I tend to leave forests alone in the capital because the capital is just a place to spawn settlers and units. And cottaging instead of forest removes hammers. (I do mine forested hills though). If the capital has the most forest when the time comes, then it gets the national forest.

    Recently I've been reading that capitals should max hammers and cash to get the maximum bureaucracy benefit - have to try that.
     
  10. Underdawg

    Underdawg Chieftain

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    A well cottaged capital along with some mines and a few bonus resources can drive your research through the middle ages with bureaucracy. I don't think leaving those forests in your capital for over half the game is a very good use of them.... those forests should be chopped for settlers/buildings/wonders especially after Mathematics.
     
  11. DiabolicX

    DiabolicX Chieftain

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    I tend to find a city that is going to be my science city with alot of trees or swamps and grassland/flood plains. I have been doing Oxford/National park for usually 4-7 great scientists that works out great w/settled scientists and acadamy.

    Heres a pic of my last city with the pair of Oxford/national park with CE. 505 Beakers
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    If you put it with a production city does it not remove the coal access from producing those units in that city? Am I understanding that correctly?

    That screen shot looks horrible cant read any of the numbers.
     
  12. Cookie Crumbs

    Cookie Crumbs Emperor

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    If possible, conquer a nearby neighbour early and use their capital as a NP city. I have to agree though, the production from chopping early-game and the potential for cottages in your capital far outweight its use as a GP farm.

    Yes, your NP city cannot use coal so building Ironworks in the same place is a big waste.
     
  13. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    Sometimes I like to settle it in someone else's capitol that I conquer because the AI doesn't seem to like to chop too much around their capitols.
     
  14. snipafist

    snipafist Chieftain

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    It really depends. If my capital starts off surrounded by food resources and forests, I usually leave the forests there, as they generate +1 hammer for each tile, and I can afford to leave them as my food resources keep my people fed. If I'm a little lower on food resources (will need to irrigate through forestland) or forests (not enough to merit a national park) then I'll chop as needs be.
     
  15. Carnage04

    Carnage04 Chieftain

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    Besides the chopping, I think leaving your capital surrounded by forests would be rough just because forests aren't the greatest tiles to work. Leave Nine of them and you have only 11 other workable tiles. Those tiles had better be good or you are going to have a very small, very poor capital.
     
  16. Gelvan

    Gelvan Chieftain

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    I did this one time and had forests (and rivers) around my capital for 5000 years, but forgot that you can only build 2 national wonders in a city... well.. :)
     
  17. PibbZ

    PibbZ Paladin

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    Haha auch :lol:
     
  18. gettingfat

    gettingfat Chieftain

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    Some random thoughts:

    • I don't think the reforestation rate due to the preserve is really that noticeable. I play regular speed, so I guess it must be more obvious at epic or marathron. But counting on regrowth at standard speed is too unreliable
    • The forests at the capital mean too much: settlers, workers, early military rush, winning the great wall or Oracle race.
    • Leaving them unimproved till lumberjack and then preserve for a few thousand years is just too much. The first half of the game is way more important.

    I say chop at least half of them
     
  19. Mewtarthio

    Mewtarthio Chieftain

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    I believe it increases forest growth by a factor of four. Negligible * 4 = Waste of Tile
     
  20. alex sword

    alex sword Raging Barbarian

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    If you find a place with 4-5 good food tiles (it's quite feasible to find such a place, you may capture some neighbor capital, for instance) and many forest tiles, place GP factory here and build NP.

    But never do NP in your own capital. Ability to chop in 2000bc gives much more than a brunch of specialists in 1500ac.

    In real life all great ancient cities were far and far away from grean peace views. If there were any grean peacers, they would not have a very long life. Different times have different priorities. And different places. Please imagine - you live in Afganistan. I don't think you will have any concerns regarding Amazon jungles.
     

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