[BTS] My new project - not a shadow game

[Fippy]

Funny start..i wouldn't settle on silver, could be so much more seafood destroyed with that.

 

[sampsa]

Yep, not on silver here. You are struggling to use all that early game, so the silver tile is very welcome.

 

[antimony]

With SIP, I think Fishing-Mining-BW gives you more options here. Worker first and mining should be done by the time he reaches that silver to improve. Research will speed up with the silver at size 2 and while the worker is waiting for BW you can connect the silver and even farm the sheep.

 

[NightOnEarth]

I'm back from a short trip. Thank you for your advice. This is the situation after turn 15: the worker is done and ready to farm the sheep and mine the silver. Fishing and Mining (1t left) are researched.

Spoiler a bad start :

t does not look good. No helper city can share crabs or fish with Thebes and the surrounding area is miserable. I've marked three possible locations for helper cities. Is it even possible to settle on snow? At least fog busting would be possible with little effort.
I think the further order would be workboat - warrior - settler - workboat.
Bronze working would be the obvious next technology, but perhaps animal husbandry is an option. More on that in a moment.

Spoiler it gets even worse: :

A narrow peninsula, tundra, then desert in the south, behind it the mainland seems to widen. Hammurabi is just beyond the desert.

I'm at a loss. I see three options.
a) I try to found two or three more cities near Thebes and attack Babylon with everything I have. The Egyptian war chariot would help me with that, but will I have horses around Thebes? To find out, I would have to quickly explore AH.
b) I build a settler as quickly as possible and try to forestall Babylon with a desperate leap and found my second city close to the wine in order to gain a foothold on the "mainland".
c) I give up this game.

 

[sampsa]

I think it's very important not to overreact and try something reckless in such spots. You can get 3 pretty high quality cities in your initial area, which is enough for a construction war. I think knowing how to reliably win a construction war is one of the most important tools especially for aspiring immortal players. Then you have the overpowered UU (well, even without it you'd have the overpowered HAs). Having horse would make it a cakewalk.

Even if for some reason you can't go early war, non-IMP immortal AI is very slow in expanding. It's very unlikely that you can't expand beyond 3 initial cities, assuming there is no undiscovered seafood. CRE is very good, if there is ocean fish. You will be quick to writing with double silver, so he can't really block you off. There seems to be plenty of land NE of his capital.

Starting save?

 

[NightOnEarth]

Sampsa, your encouraging words boost my confidence. I played until my first settler (t42), met Tokugawa and Napoleon, too, researched Bronze Working and AH and soon pottery. All my opponents founded the second city and accepted slavery (except for Hammurabi). The first three religions have been explored, but not by my neighbors who don't like each other. Unfortunately there is no copper in my area and no horses either.

Spoiler the northern country :

Unfortunately no more sea food. According to the "construction war with three cities" plan, I should actually follow the AI's suggestion and settle near the silver. Food (sheep) is only in the second ring, but I'm creative. The worker has already built the road and is currently replacing my second warrior as the fog buster to the east.
In the north there is still a chance for ocean fish, there I could also use the sheep for the third city.
What do I build next in Thebes? A workboat to have a fourth, improved tile for workers and settlers, or a worker to chop forests? I think the work boat would be best, and then at POP 4 another worker and one more settler.

As the next technology, writing would probably be the best because of OB and direction to construction.

Spoiler the southern country :

A horse! Hammurabi has just founded his second city somewhere else and I would have the chance to found my second city at the marked place, for example. Plus wine +1, wheat and four FP plus fresh water. Without copper and horse on the peninsula, a tempting alternative, I think. The war chariot is overpowered (sampsa), so bring it on.

I am very interested in learning how to do a construction war with three cities, but I would prefer the lunge to the mainland. What do you pros and comrades-in-arms think?

@sampsa: I attached the starting save.

 

[sampsa]

I think there is a decent chance you can claim the horse with your 3rd city. That would make everything easy. Not sure arbeitsboot is what you need, you need em bautrupps und settlaas.

 

[sampsa]

Hatty T5

Spoiler :

I think it's much better to go AH and thus delay fishing. Having 2nd sheep available makes a big difference! In general, work boats are trash compared to workers. They cost half a worker and can improve ONE tile, then get disbanded! Thus, you should IMO go early boats only if forced or maybe if you start with fishing. Like if seafood is your only food or if worker would have nothing useful to do. Non-fishing starter very rarely should go fishing first to improve seafood if there are alternatives, because fishing starts are very slow. And slow is bad.

Here we even have the wheel, so the worker is never unemployed. Intuitively BW 3rd rather than fishing to start chopping asap, fishing 4th, but depends a bit on timing. Settler size 2, just to get the 2nd city up asap.

In general I like to fog bust with the initial warrior rather than wander away (more of a deity play though), but here the land is so easy to spawn bust with a single warrior that I think the initial warrior should take some risks trying to meet someone.

 

[sampsa]

Hatty T50 (nothing overly spoily compared to your T42)

Spoiler :

AH-mining-BW-fishing-writing-(masonry). Capital builds worker-warrior(grow to 2)-settler-worker-settler. Still haven't found time for boats, I think 3rd city is just more important to get up asap. It will be T52 3rd city, which is very slow for my taste, but will do.

Building 4th settler to grab some spot in the south, probably on wine. Construction isn't that far, especially once I get the CRE library up in capital. Hmm, should turn tech off, get the library and go maths before masonry. I think horse/copper is not necessary to win the construction war. Catapults do all the work and archers can mop up. So it's a non-res "rush" that is doable every game, assuming you have a neighbor. I only now realize this is emperor, not immortal, which doesn't really matter.

Note, no pottery. I do love granaries, but they go very poorly with tiles like silver/gold. The value of the granary comes from fluctuating in size (grow,whip) and I am stagnating in both cities. Possibly building granaries only after the war is won, which means not many whips. Probably not many forest left to chop either, so it will be a bit challenging to produce those cats. Hmm, need to reconsider granaries.

 

[NightOnEarth]

Sampsa, thank you very much for taking the trouble to play this game yourself, for your analysis and for the insights into the mind of a pro. I'm amazed again at how multifaceted and variable CIV IV can be played and what else I can learn. Based on your explanations, I can fully understand your strategy and your decisions. I'm amazed that you can attack without horse and copper, I didn't expected that. Now I'm seriously considering restarting the game on your base to internalize all the things.

I have two more questions. Would you build the third city on the snow in the far northeast? And the fourth city on the wine or right next to it to get the wheat? In any case, I could use the horse to build war chariots that only cost 30 .
If I attack Hammurabi with catapults, how many of them would I need, what kind of support troops (archers would require archery, otherwise I have practically no choice, my opponent will have combat archers) and how much do I have to fear axemen?

Edit: math before masonry because of chopping forests for 30 instead of 20?
Edit2: WB after settler? This way, 3rd city could work sheep, and Thebes fish. Or library first?

 

[sampsa]

No problem!

My 3rd city was settled on the grass where the worker is currently roading (the road is to settle 1T sooner). It has an extra grass hill and can sometimes borrow southern silver, which I think are more important things than having an extra grassland tile. The city can borrow the sheep, can work the lake, borrow the silver if cap cannot work it etc. For the 4th city, I like the wine because of the +1 and it doesn't kill a forest (30 down the drain). Dry wheat isn't that special anyway. Probably not a huge difference though, and yes getting the horse would be very good even if going for construction attack. 30WC >>> 25archer obviously.

I think something like 7+7 should be easily enough to take the capital on emperor, if you can attack pre-T100 (easily doable here). 7 cats and 7 other units, that is. Yes, axes and especially swords are annoying if you have nothing good to protect your cats with, but at least you can move via forest/hills. One trap to fall into is barracks. Not every unit needs to be promoted, even 0xp cats are very good because they bombard the same as 3xp cats anyway and you will lose some no matter the xp. 50 is a steep price for a small amount of xp and often you'd just rather have extra units. That being said, it's nice to have at least some units with higher xp.

 

[sampsa]

Edit: math before masonry because of chopping forests for 30 instead of 20?

Yes. Masonry is useless, while math at least has the chop bonus going for it. In my game I had chopped most of the capital area forest pre-math though.

Edit2: WB after settler? This way, 3rd city could work sheep, and Thebes fish. Or library first?

I have played on and I think I improved fish next, then library, then crab with a boat from 3rd city. Last crab was unimproved for a long time since couldn't really use it for much and are scarce.

 

[sampsa]

One more thing occurred to me. I ran scientists after library and some growth, I think starting size 5. It's rare to run scientists when not in max size and no real purpose for the yet even. However, the point is simply to maximize until construction is done, not to get the out. Library only in capital. Hence capital should also mostly be working the silver.

 

[NightOnEarth]

Gosh, that was hard work. Sampsa, your timing must have been spot on because I was a bit slower to save forests post-math, so Hammurabi got ahead of me by two or three turns with his third city on wine. It finally worked on the third try.

Spoiler Hatti - t71 :

Hammurabi, meanwhile, has horse and chariots. Tokugawa is bordered to Elephantine (wine) to the east. Thebes built the library, pop 4, next turn pop 5 and a scientist, fish and a crab, the third workboat is in progress in Heliopolis. I will connect the horse in three or four moves. Masonry is explored in two turns, next construction and then probably pottery. Now I think Memphis should also grow and build a mine to help produce the units. At the moment I have four cities, three warriors and in the next turn four workers.

I am faced with the question of what to build in Thebes and Memphis until the horse is connected. The two warriors are just dummies until I make a decision. And the workers could pre-chop perhaps?
Honestly, I don't think I'm ready to attack pre-100. But let's see. Probably whip and chop until my fingers bleed. Is it a good idea to build a road to Hammurabi to get supplies faster?

 

[sampsa]

Didn't mean to mislead you , but I didn't get the wine spot.

T68 situation (same as in your screenshot)

Spoiler :

I think capital barracks is a decent idea, but 2nd barracks a bad one. Should've just built some warriors until horse is connected in 2T. I think my core is a bit better developed than yours, but getting the wine spot is obviously nice in your game. My tech is a bit ahead actually because I have extra 80. Capital works fish-crab-silver-2*sci. You can make a case for improving a 2nd crab, but it will delay construction a bit.

Some comments on your game and answers to your questions

Spoiler :

Two things jump at me in your screenshot.

1) You've built a lot of roads. In general my advice is to build exactly the roads you need and nothing more. I haven't roaded capital silver or 2nd city sheep, because roading them doesn't give real benefit right now. You can road them later once the AI has something to trade perhaps. The road south from capital is also a 7T investment and those workerT could probably be used better.

2) You started with a worker in the southern city. In general, don't start with a worker when there are -tiles around. I'd start with a warrior and grow. Start farming a fp and have the road done exactly when borders pop to get that horse online immediately. It'd be very good to have 2 workers in that area. Why should you not start with a worker? Because it's simply more efficient to 1-pop whip it. Growing to size 2 costs the lenght of the -bar which is 22. Then that 22 can be transformed into 30. Perhaps by that time you can put a chop into it, so the worker is a 2T build once you reach size 2, making it a total 9T build. You win the 7 that you've put towards the warrior plus some overflow .

These things are relatively minor and will not cause your game to crumble, at all. Just some food for thought for future!

I am faced with the question of what to build in Thebes and Memphis until the horse is connected. The two warriors are just dummies until I make a decision. And the workers could pre-chop perhaps?

Warriors are the best you have now. You could favor even coastal tiles in favor of mines if you are putting too many into them now. There is a lot to improve in the south - farming (1-2 fps), connecting to Hammurabi, at construction chopping. Pre-chop if you have nothing better.

Honestly, I don't think I'm ready to attack pre-100. But let's see. Probably whip and chop until my fingers bleed. Is it a good idea to build a road to Hammurabi to get supplies faster?

I captured Babylon T95, so it's certainly doable. Not many whips (inefficient due to no granaries). Yes, roading to Hammurabi as fast as you can is important to get the trade routes! Should be extra 3 immediately.

 

[NightOnEarth]

I think it's a good time to pause my third game at this point and start my fourth and final game in this project. Settings are as in message #1. The leader this time is Huayna Capac, financial and industrial, he starts with farming and mysticism, and has the infamous Quechua (warriors) as UU and the Inca Terrace (granaries) as UB. The climate is rocky, the sea level is high.
This is the game I'm most looking forward to. It may sound strange, but I've never done well on any game I've been fin. So here's my chance to examine one of my weaknesses. I think, I know what Huayna Capac would do as an AI, which is to found a religion and then start annoying me. But let's see what my options are.

Spoiler Huayna Capac - t5 :

Fresh water, lots of forests, corn and sheep. Marble combined with industrial, not bad. In the north tundra, in the west coast. Since the sea level is high, opponents to the south and east are likely not far away, so the first settler may need to be completed quickly. My idea is the standard worker – Quechua (grow to Pop 2) – settler. Mining - Bronze Working first to chop forests? Or AH to improve the sheep? What do you all mean?
Or something completely different? I immediately build four, five Quechua to attack the next opponent before he has copper or horse. Is something like this feasible?

 

[sampsa]

What I see is lots of good, connected land that I think should be claimed and worked as fast as possible. Thus I think AH needs to wait, even if that river sheep would get the nice FIN bonus. BW is great for chops to speed up the expansion. Mining-BW-wheel-pottery, unless perhaps if you find something like pigs in the south by the river. 3S of cap is a clear candidate for 2nd city.

If going for BW first, there is always the possibility of 2-pop whipping the 1st settler with such tiles (5+2*3+23). Not sure if that is better than size2 though. If you go size 2, plan what tiles to work to get the quechua out the same turn as growth. Chopping a forest from the correct spot allows you to settle 1T faster.

I immediately build four, five Quechua to attack the next opponent before he has copper or horse. Is something like this feasible?

No. You don't even know if you have neighbors!

 

[NightOnEarth]

Starting this game was an educational experience. I really wanted to found my second city 3S of Cuzco. Good land, helper city and blockade of Asoka, my southern neighbor. Mining - Bronze Working and worker - Quechua - Settlers. But no matter what I tried, Asoka was always exactly one turn (t31) faster. Now I begin to understand why you pros emphazise always the importance that every turn, every action and every decision counts right from the beginning.

Spoiler t32 - different results :

I tried several variants. The worker always improved the corn and then moved south of town to chop the forest and clear the way for the settler. Once Cuzco's population grew to two, I switched to the settler. It didn't matter if I took slavery to whip 1 POP or not to save a turn and could chop two forests instead of one. The result was always the same: my settler could have settled in t32, one turn too late. Then I built the settler right after the worker, saved a turn revolte, but again with the same result – almost. For some reason Asoka was there one turn later this time (2nd screenshot, Asoka's settler is in the yellow marked spot). I don't know why and couldn't repeat it. I've attached the save file (t5) in case anyone wants to try this scenario and to win the race against Asoka.
What's next? I have a lot of hinterland for more cities. As I said, I have not real experience being financal. But with all that floodplains, pottery is a no brainer I guess. Choosing the right spots for other cities and the right order is more difficult. Food is not plentiful. I'd like to settle east to cut Asoka off my backcountry for good, maybe 3E from Tiwanaku if Asoka lets me. The area west of Cuzco is unexplored, and to the east is a grassland cow and river.
Barbarians could be a problem, and fog busting is difficult given the large area. Quechua seem actually ideal for barbarian archers, so I guess I won't need copper anytime soon.

I would be grateful for your tips and comments.

 

[drewisfat]

Going to settler size 1 immediately after worker actually does let you settle t31, so that's the micro challenge answer. You must have burned it on anarchy or something.
You'll discover your neighbor before that worker finishes, so there's no reason to go settler, building Qs and taking cities is more efficient. Incans aren't a great civ to learn with for this reason.

 

[NightOnEarth]

Going to settler size 1 immediately after worker actually does let you settle t31, so that's the micro challenge answer. You must have burned it on anarchy or something.

Yes you are right. thank you for bringing this to my attention. Played right, it fits perfectly.

You'll discover your neighbor before that worker finishes, so there's no reason to go settler, building Qs and taking cities is more efficient. Incans aren't a great civ to learn with for this reason.

Thank you for pointing this out, too. I tried it and experimented a bit with it. Although I had already heard of the infamous quechua rush, I was surprised how well it works, e.g. a quechua often received two(!) promotions after a winning attack (how comes this?). If I had really tried India would have been taken t50, Cuzco would have grown to pop 5 by then and I would have enough (promoted) quechuas for fog busting.
But yes, you are right. Inca isn't a good civ to learn how to play financial this way. For that purpose I should probably continue my game.