[BTS] My new project - not a shadow game

[NightOnEarth]

I did some more experimenting and also considered choosing the Quechua rush, but for learning purposes I went with my original plan.

Spoiler one step back - Huayna t30 :

the settler will found the second city 3S of Cuzco in the next turn, the worker has just chopped the second forest, tech-wise I'm on my way the wheel - pottery.

My thoughts and questions:
- from chopping into quechua (fogbusting) or second worker?
- How urgent is fogbusting? I still have some time I think.
- Pottery unlocks Inca terrace and saves me mysticism > monument for now
- Where do I found my third city? At the wine? That would incidentally block Asoka.
- Expanding peacefully (I would have enough space)? There's no need for an attack on Asoka, I think, and the window for a Quechua rush seems to be closing.
- Worker – settler – quechua – inca-terrase: how many and what priorities?

 

[sampsa]

- from chopping into quechua (fogbusting) or second worker?

Chop into a worker surely, finish with another chop.

- How urgent is fogbusting? I still have some time I think.

I wouldn't care about fog busting very much. You have quechua so you can deal with barb archers when they show up.

- Where do I found my third city? At the wine? That would incidentally block Asoka.

For me, the best area is along the river, which interestingly you haven't even scouted! I would not care at all about blocking below deity, for two reasons. 1)AI expands slowly 2)it's easy to capture cities.

- Worker – settler – quechua – inca-terrase: how many and what priorities?

You have lots to chop and cottage, so probably need many workers. Granaries are less important than expanding. Enough quechua to be safe.

edit: you should mine the sheep, if that wasn't already clear

 

[NightOnEarth]

Thank you very much for your support, sampsa. It is really helpful to me. What has happened since the last break?
- Asoka founded his second city SE of Cuzco at the river.
- My quechua has now explored this area and discovered Frederik's city of Hamburg on the coast in the immediate vicinity.
- Roosevelt has writing (t43). I have open border with him.
- After pottery I was faced with a difficult decision for me: writing (library, cottages), hunting > AH (horse?, deer in the N) or meditaion > priesthood (Ind, marble, oracle). I chose writing. Hopefully this made some sense.

Spoiler Huayna Capac - t48 :

- With the exploration of the river in the SW, I am now faced with the question of whether I should really settle there or better SE with the wine.
- Little food, difficult selection of worthwhile spots for cities.
So many questions, so little personal knowledge:
- Spread all espionage points on Asoka or to be able to estimate the military strengths of my opponents?
- Road to Asoka? (after OB)
- Explore the river in the far E for later cities?

I have two more questions that have nothing to do with the game itself.
- What happens to the wild animals when barbarians appear? Do they dissolve? In t35 I still saw two lions, in t37 the first barbarian appeared and all the animals had disappeared.
- In screenshots I saw that you can mark units with a green bar over them. How does this work?

 

[sampsa]

Expansion seems very slow. I think you should've 1-pop whipped the worker in 2nd city (don't do it now though), and should've chopped more instead of cottaging. I hope you haven't invested in granaries yet.

whether I should really settle there or better SE with the wine.

I think your marked SE-spot is fine. Can't settle on the river anyway and no besides floodplains and you don't want cultural fights.

Spread all espionage points on Asoka or to be able to estimate the military strengths of my opponents?

I always go for one AI. Here I'd go for Roosevelt, because he got writing early and the other two are very good victims for you (close, low unitbuildprob).

Road to Asoka? (after OB)

Yes.

Explore the river in the far E for later cities?

Sure. I would again just catapult war, in which case I'd just get 4th on the NW copper area. Targets don't get any juicier than Asoka or Fred.

What happens to the wild animals when barbarians appear? Do they dissolve? In t35 I still saw two lions, in t37 the first barbarian appeared and all the animals had disappeared.

Animals just start to just vanish, yes, but it's not instantaneous. They don't turn into human barbariabs.

In screenshots I saw that you can mark units with a green bar over them. How does this work?

Somewhere in the settings click health bar. It just shows how much health left and compares it to the healthiest unit on the map. It's quite neat since you can basically see if someone already has a 5str unit. Not that it's useful in most games.

 

[War Master in Training]

I knew about the health bar option, but I didn’t know about that neat hidden use!

 

[NightOnEarth]

Expansion seems very slow. I think you should've 1-pop whipped the worker in 2nd city (don't do it now though), and should've chopped more instead of cottaging.

Yes, that's right. I realize there is a difference between understanding your explanations and practicing them myself. I replayed a few moves and tried to do better.

I have some questions to learn and understand "the big picture".

If I understand correctly, the core statement is: rapid expansion > growth of cities. Therefore settlers and workers asap, even with POP 1 or 2. Whip and chop for this purpose.

When is the time to slow down the first expansion, to let the cities grow to their limits, for example to exploit cottages and thus boost the economy? Just being financial should benefit from that I think. I believe the answer to my question is central to my understanding of the game.

Also, I understand that the catapult rush should now be the appropriate strategic target. How many cities do I need for this, four?

In my ignorance, I probably would have taken a peaceful approach and built many cottages and towns to show off my trait financial, especially in my hinterland. Would this even be a real alternative?

I think I was on the right track with technologies until writing. mathematics - masonry - construction would now follow, right? For this I would have to speed up my research with cottages and possibly a library in Cuzco, correct? I don't think there's time for the oracle.

 

[sampsa]

If I understand correctly, the core statement is: rapid expansion > growth of cities. Therefore settlers and workers asap, even with POP 1 or 2. Whip and chop for this purpose.

In short, yes, but it makes sense to investigate a bit to make more sense of it.

For me, the biggest goal in the first say 75T is to work as many good tiles as possible as quickly as possible. I think you could say that the city center is a good tile, because it's extra 211 and no citizen is eating that . Hence it's comparable to a workable 411-tile. What is a good tile is of course a bit vague, but I'd still count 31 (unimproved floodplain) as a good tile, because it allows growth and doesn't cost you anything.

When is the time to slow down the first expansion, to let the cities grow to their limits, for example to exploit cottages and thus boost the economy? Just being financial should benefit from that I think. I believe the answer to my question is central to my understanding of the game.

In general, I'd try to found the 2nd city very quickly if you can defend your empire, 2nd city is connected (+2) and it has good tiles to work. Without connection that city probably costs you some which isn't optimal, but of course not the end of the world. The sooner you found a city the sooner it develops.

Anyway, here you tick all three boxes. For me, settler in size 2 makes most sense because your capital has two tiles you really want to work all the time (dry corn and mined sheep). From there I'd just try to found as many good cities I can (floodplain cities are imo always good, especially with a FIN leader). Even a city with a single (farmed) floodplain and some grass cottages contributes a lot pretty quickly. Like here, 4th on copper is sensible, extra and has enough good tiles to grow on.

Also, I understand that the catapult rush should now be the appropriate strategic target. How many cities do I need for this, four?

In my ignorance, I probably would have taken a peaceful approach and built many cottages and towns to show off my trait financial, especially in my hinterland. Would this even be a real alternative?

Four is fine, yes. Usually the timing seems to work best with 4 cities. The strategic reason why I think a catapult war is good here is that you cannot easily claim more good land peacefully. What makes it a no-brainer for me is the AIs in question, both total pushovers and you can just take all their land.

FIN is useful long-term too of course, but I think it's most useful when you have lots of river tiles to work early. That extra allows you to reach key techs faster and fund a lot of cities soon after. Early expansion via war fits into this very well. Also like I mentioned, my attention in scouting would have immediately been along the river. We know there can't be anything better in the north, so just ignore that direction. Special UU makes it even more easier to totally ignore that direction.

I think I was on the right track with technologies until writing. mathematics - masonry - construction would now follow, right? For this I would have to speed up my research with cottages and possibly a library in Cuzco, correct? I don't think there's time for the oracle.

Yes, tech path seems fine! I think trying to oracle construction (or even maths) is a good idea, because HC starts with myst (plus is IND). But if it doesn't seem viable because of timing then don't do it. Library in capital yes, if you have time for it. Remember to stay at 0%-slider while building it to get the max benefit.

 

[NightOnEarth]

sampsa, thank you very much for your explanations and for the time and effort you devote to my project . I think I'll benefit enormously from it, and I hope the non-pro readers will too. I had continued playing in the meantime, but didn't want to make my previous message too long.
What has happened in the meantime? (I hope I didn't do too much wrong. If I did, please point it out)
- My quechuas explored the hinterland extensively and found interesting things.
- The fourth settler is nearing completion.
- I farmed two floodplains (temporarily?) and mined a hill to speed up the growth and production of the cities due to the lack of food. Hope this wasn't a stupid decision.
- I grow on quechuas in the cities so I can do 1-POP whips. Later I can definitely use the them as a mop-ups in my attack or as MP in my cities.
- My second city will soon finish the fourth worker.
- I just researched writing and have now OB with all three visible enemies. So I can connect to Asoka.
- Lincoln has alphabet. I don't have anything to trade (yet). But now I can follow his technological progress.
- Stonehenge was built elsewhere in t53.

Spoiler Huayna capac - t57 :

I need advice on how best to proceed.
- Taking into account all the newly explored territory: still settle at copper? Settling next to the cow would be an alternative for me, but for that I need AH, which would slow me down for the catapult rush. But I could also upgrade the gold for 1
- How many workers would make sense?
- Leave forests to chop catapults later? Or better whip catapults?
- Do I need the marble now? It would then be a +4 tile with 2.
- Starting to cottage floodplains and grasland?

Screenshots are slowly becoming confusing. So this time I attached the save file.

 

[sampsa]

I farmed two floodplains (temporarily?) and mined a hill to speed up the growth and production of the cities due to the lack of food. Hope this wasn't a stupid decision.

I think farms are good, you need to grow cities. Mine is bad IMO, for exactly the same reason. It stalls growth.

I grow on quechuas in the cities so I can do 1-POP whips. Later I can definitely use the them as a mop-ups in my attack or as MP in my cities.

Well, if you don't need those quechuas now, you should start on terraces! I think you have enough forest to get them up (or 2-pop whip). The Hatty game was more of an exception (no granaries) because land was bad for them (very limited number of strong tiles).

Your -cap is low, which is bad for granaries/whipping, but OB with Asoka should give you religion soon. Hope he starts wasting on spreading the religion to you!

- My second city will soon finish the fourth worker.

Yes, whip it now.

- How many workers would make sense?
- Leave forests to chop catapults later? Or better whip catapults?
- Do I need the marble now? It would then be a +4 tile with 2.
- Starting to cottage floodplains and grasland?

4 workers should be good for 4 cities. I think it's best to put chops into terraces so that you can whip efficiently later. Marble not urgent IMO, fp cottages are better. I think you are starting to cottage soon yes, though getting those terraces up should be higher priority still.

 

[NightOnEarth]

Library in capital yes, if you have time for it. Remember to stay at 0%-slider while building it to get the max benefit.

Sampsa, a really good hint that is having a positive effect on my game. I'm now 3t away from masonry, have four pop 4-5 cities with inca terraces for effective whipping, two libraries to boost my research, and axemen to support the catapults. As you suspected, Asoka's Buddhism has spread to two of my cities. My fourth city with the long name has improved silver and has raised my handicap.
My opponents Lincoln and Asoka have alpha and are way ahead of me research-wise. Asoka has accepted hereditary rule. Meanwhile, the fifth civilization has appeared - Darius. Frederick converted to Buddhism.

Spoiler Huayna Capac - t88 :

I think now is the time to plan my attack. I hope for support and advice again.
- Asoka just founded his fourth city on copper . I have a quechua there who might try to cut the road to the other cities.
- Asoka currently has 1-2 archers in his cities as far as I've seen.
- Troop strength 7 cats, all axemen and the two city raider II quechuas, would that be enough?
- Will Frederick enter the war as Asoka's co-religionist? How big is the danger?
- Invasion route Bombay, then Delhi I think. Or should I attack the capital first? Or even both at the same time?
- I guess Delhi will have 40% and Bombay 20% city defenses. Should I bomb the city defenses first or attack directly?
- Once I've conquered the two cities, I could extort some technologies from Asoka for a 10t peace. After that I can decide whether I should take the rest. Then Asoka could become my vassal once feudalism is explored.
- In the east, at a very favorable point, a barbarian city (wheat, cow, fish) has been founded. I could then take this and save a settler.
- What is a good long-term strategy here: fight Frederick afterwards or grow peacefully with the large hinterland?

 

[sampsa]

Asoka just founded his fourth city on copper . I have a quechua there who might try to cut the road to the other cities.

Defender having copper is mostly irrelevant in construction attacks, especially when you have metal. Axes don't get +50% city defence like archers, no +25% hill defence bonus and no relevant defensive promotions. Maybe you'd even rather have him put towards axes than archers.

Troop strength 7 cats, all axemen and the two city raider II quechuas, would that be enough?

7 cats should be enough to start the war, yes.

Will Frederick enter the war as Asoka's co-religionist? How big is the danger?

Mostly irrelevant.

Invasion route Bombay, then Delhi I think. Or should I attack the capital first? Or even both at the same time?

Bombay-Delhi seems logical.

I guess Delhi will have 40% and Bombay 20% city defenses. Should I bomb the city defenses first or attack directly?

Bombay already has popped borders twice so it's 40%. Holy city capital will be 60%. Whether you should bombard depends on how many units you are facing and what kind of casualties you expect if you go without bombarding. Usually you should bombard.

Once I've conquered the two cities, I could extort some technologies from Asoka for a 10t peace. After that I can decide whether I should take the rest. Then Asoka could become my vassal once feudalism is explored.

Possible to take 10T peace yes, but if I'd do so I'd certainly attack Fred asap after peace. You don't build units intending to make peace and wait. It's important to take many cities asap. Vassal depends, usually better to just own instead of half-own.

In the east, at a very favorable point, a barbarian city (wheat, cow, fish) has been founded. I could then take this and save a settler.

Well, decent city, but much less juicy than the river cities owned by two very weak AI.

What is a good long-term strategy here: fight Frederick afterwards or grow peacefully with the large hinterland?

Probably clear already from my answers to other questions. There is no real reason for peace if you can just grab more stuff. You are not being greedy enough. Greed (i.e. maximalist approach) is a big virtue in most games.

There are some pretty big fundamental mistakes in your save that I need to address.

Focus. When you choose a strategy, you need to execute it and not dilly-dally other stuff. Building a settler is not what you need. You could be getting almost 10 more cities via war soon, you don't need to settle! It's also not the time to build an extra worker. Useful things are units, chops (I see you've pre-chopped 4 forests though, good!), growing cities to and beyond the -cap in order to be ready to 2-pop whip cats. It's very important to be ready to attack as soon as possible after reaching construction. I don't like the 2nd library. You'd much rather have two barracks for roughly the same price. isn't and won't be the bottleneck in this game.

City management. My eyes bleed every time I see an unworked corn. Grow. Unhappiness isn't a huge deal, those pop are worth 30 anyway via whip, no matter unhappy or happy. Also, as a general rule, don't slow build worker/settler in cities that have a granary. It's very very inefficient compared to whipping. Let me explain this a bit more. -bar is 22 size 1. From there is takes 2 more to grow every size (22,24,26,28 and so on). Granary effectively cuts that in half (11,12,13,14 etc). That amount of (11,12..) is transformed into 30 per pop via whip. Slow building always transforms 1->1 no matter granary or not, which means over 100% weaker conversion rate.

I would have founded on the copper, as I think silver is too late to make an impact, while you'd save a ton of workerT for more useful things, like pre-chops, some roads and more cottages. The extra city tile is much better than the tundra copper hill (51). Still I don't think it's a huge deal, +1 is obviously nice to have, but you aren't making much use of it since all your cities are way below -cap.

All this being said, game is looking good and poor AI has no chance.

 

[NightOnEarth]

Focus. When you choose a strategy, you need to execute it and not dilly-dally other stuff.

I think that's my fundamental problem in all my games: finding an appropriate overall strategy to win the game. I've avoided wars so far and didn't know what alternative strategy to use. In most cases it ended in a space race.

I don't like the 2nd library. You'd much rather have two barracks for roughly the same price. isn't and won't be the bottleneck in this game.

Of course you are right! One might laugh, but at this point I actually completely missed the barracks.

growing cities to and beyond the -cap in order to be ready to 2-pop whip cats. It's very important to be ready to attack as soon as possible after reaching construction. Grow. Unhappiness isn't a huge deal, those pop are worth 30 anyway via whip, no matter unhappy or happy.

This is an important point for me. I actually only learned that now through you. I had a reflex to avoid unhappy citizens. But your explanation makes complete sense and fits perfectly into the catapult rush strategy.
So, because of the twin points of barracks and avoiding growing past the happy handicap, I had mistakenly seen no other way than to build settler and worker, more out of embarrassment than necessity. Lesson learned!

I am now on vacation for 10 days. After that I'm looking forward to tackling the next sequence of my four parallel games.