National Wonders: what to do?

[vormuir]

I'm having some trouble placing National Wonders. I know these guys can produce serious synergies if used right, but the advance planning is getting to me.

Here's what I have so far:


Globe Theater -- Apparently there are a lot of ways you can use this for military benefit. Things like whipping and drafting don't matter if you have the Globe. I haven't really done this... instead I mostly ignore the Globe, unless (1) I'm going for cultural victory, in which case it's very good; or (2) I have a neighbor I want to stay at peace with, but there are border issues. In which case the Globe is very good for keeping the border where it belongs.


Heroic Epic -- Build this someplace that has good production, right? Then make sure you keep the production up with forge, factory, etc.

You can combine this with the Ironworks, and that's good. Or with West Point, and that's good too. Seems straightforward enough.


Hermitage -- This seems great if you're going for a cultural victory, but pretty useless otherwise. Am I missing something?


Ironworks -- Placing this seems to be a very fraught decision. I guess you'd naturally want to place it in your highest production city. But then two problems arise.

First, what do you pair it with? It seems like there are several strong candidates: Red Cross, Heroic Epic, West Point. Maybe Scotland Yard if you find spies really useful (I don't).

Second, what if your best production city is also your commerce city, or a major cultural center? This happens to me a lot. You might really want to build the IW/RC pair there, but find that it's also the ideal place for Oxford U and/or Wall Street. Balancing this can be really tricky. Suggestions are welcome.

Oh, and: if you have Angkor Wat, that affects your thinking. Suddenly putting the Ironworks in the GP farm makes sense, because all those priests producing up to four hammers each (with Iron, Coal, a forge and a factory) is pretty tempting.

National Epic -- I'm still having trouble handling GPs, so this is tricky for me. Put this in your GP farm, right, check. But what goes with it?


Oxford University -- In the big research city, obviously; and you keep it operating at max efficiency by building all the knowledge buildings, and an Academy, and maybe running a scientist or two. I got that. My only problem is what to pair it with.


Red Cross -- I keep seeing people talking about an IW/RC pair. I see the power of that, but do we really want to wait around that long? RC doesn't usually appear until quite late in my games.

Otherwise, I guess you'd just build it in a good production city. If Ironworks is unavailable, maybe pair it with the Globe, so you can draft and whip a bunch of slave-doctors? I guess you would call that the MASH combo.


Scotland Yard -- Are spies really all that? I have the feeling I'm underusing them. I sometimes don't even build this.


Wall Street -- This is a good one, but placing it gives me fits. My best commerce city is usually my best research city (which is usually my capital) so it usually seems to end up teamed with Oxford U in the capital.

I guess if you have a holy city, you want it there. (In Civ IV, you WANT the moneychangers in the Temple.)


West Point -- Costs 800 shields, and it's basically a second barracks that stacks. (Although, oddly, you don't need a barracks to build it. In which case, it's just a barracks that costs about 13x more than normal.)

I'm a little skeptical of the value of this. Okay, you get units starting with 8 points instead of four; run Vassalage or Theocracy, and you have fourth level fighters from the git-go.

That's nice, but it's just in one city. And, cripes, 800 shields. You could build almost seven cavalry for that, or four and a half tanks. By way of comparison, a Barracks just costs two and a half Axemen. Doesn't seem worth it unless the city is already a production monster. Like Scotland Yard, I sometimes don't even get around to this.


Finally, a general observation: I often find myself waiting many turns to build the two Epics. As in, I may not build them until well into the Renaissance (standard game). Is this common, or is something terribly wrong with me?

Thanks in advance,


Waldo

 

[cabert]

I'm having some trouble placing National Wonders. I know these guys can produce serious synergies if used right, but the advance planning is getting to me.

Here's what I have so far:


Globe Theater -- Apparently there are a lot of ways you can use this for military benefit. Things like whipping and drafting don't matter if you have the Globe. I haven't really done this... instead I mostly ignore the Globe, unless (1) I'm going for cultural victory, in which case it's very good; or (2) I have a neighbor I want to stay at peace with, but there are border issues. In which case the Globe is very good for keeping the border where it belongs.

well, the effect of the globe is to suppress any unhappiness
so, it's place is in the largest (to be) city = fastest growth city.
It can be your GP farm (big food necessary too), or not.
If it isn't, you can use the big food to draft a unit every turn, when in need since you won't get any unhappiness. you can also whip a lot of things without looking at the unhappiness effect.

Heroic Epic -- Build this someplace that has good production, right? Then make sure you keep the production up with forge, factory, etc.

You can combine this with the Ironworks, and that's good. Or with West Point, and that's good too. Seems straightforward enough.

Good enough explanation for me.

Hermitage -- This seems great if you're going for a cultural victory, but pretty useless otherwise. Am I missing something?

the effect is doubling the culture per turn
so indeed, it's mostly useful for cultural victory, but can also be used for land grabbing / keeping your ground like you said about globe theater

Ironworks -- Placing this seems to be a very fraught decision. I guess you'd naturally want to place it in your highest production city. But then two problems arise.

First, what do you pair it with? It seems like there are several strong candidates: Red Cross, Heroic Epic, West Point. Maybe Scotland Yard if you find spies really useful (I don't).

Second, what if your best production city is also your commerce city, or a major cultural center? This happens to me a lot. You might really want to build the IW/RC pair there, but find that it's also the ideal place for Oxford U and/or Wall Street. Balancing this can be really tricky. Suggestions are welcome.

why would you want that much spies???
my usual combination are heroic epic + west point
and IW + Red cross,
because this way you get 2 different cities able to build experienced units very fast
(of course, red cross only gives medic, but medic leads to march!)

problem is Red Cross comes quite late, so it's not really necessary to wait until then, and you don't need that much medics

so it's not really a problem to have IW + any other, you don't lose much

about wall street : it only doubles your cash, so it's usually something to put in a big $ holy city

Oh, and: if you have Angkor Wat, that affects your thinking. Suddenly putting the Ironworks in the GP farm makes sense, because all those priests producing up to four hammers each (with Iron, Coal, a forge and a factory) is pretty tempting.

National Epic -- I'm still having trouble handling GPs, so this is tricky for me. Put this in your GP farm, right, check. But what goes with it?

depends on the GP you aim for
if you want artists, globe theater is perfect
if you want engineers, IW is your friend (never did, comes too late for any effect).

Oxford University -- In the big research city, obviously; and you keep it operating at max efficiency by building all the knowledge buildings, and an Academy, and maybe running a scientist or two. I got that. My only problem is what to pair it with.

you give it max efficiency if you put it where you have the most base beakers (without all those buildings)
and it's not a problem if you don't know what to pair it with
If you don't have a shrine, you'll end up pairing it with wall street.
If you have, it's just a lonesome national wonder.

Red Cross -- I keep seeing people talking about an IW/RC pair. I see the power of that, but do we really want to wait around that long? RC doesn't usually appear until quite late in my games.

Otherwise, I guess you'd just build it in a good production city. If Ironworks is unavailable, maybe pair it with the Globe, so you can draft and whip a bunch of slave-doctors? I guess you would call that the MASH combo.

nice one, must try it

Scotland Yard -- Are spies really all that? I have the feeling I'm underusing them. I sometimes don't even build this.

same for me, too late, too expensive, too little use

Wall Street -- This is a good one, but placing it gives me fits. My best commerce city is usually my best research city (which is usually my capital) so it usually seems to end up teamed with Oxford U in the capital.

I guess if you have a holy city, you want it there. (In Civ IV, you WANT the moneychangers in the Temple.)

agreed, like i alreayd said

West Point -- Costs 800 shields, and it's basically a second barracks that stacks. (Although, oddly, you don't need a barracks to build it. In which case, it's just a barracks that costs about 13x more than normal.)

I'm a little skeptical of the value of this. Okay, you get units starting with 8 points instead of four; run Vassalage or Theocracy, and you have fourth level fighters from the git-go.

That's nice, but it's just in one city. And, cripes, 800 shields. You could build almost seven cavalry for that, or four and a half tanks. By way of comparison, a Barracks just costs two and a half Axemen. Doesn't seem worth it unless the city is already a production monster. Like Scotland Yard, I sometimes don't even get around to this.

you're nuts?
of course, it comes rather late
but remember you build it in a good production city, so you won't have too much trouble building it
and it's 8 xp isn't grand but 10 xps is!, you start with 3 promotions, and that's a big deal!
if you're agressive, you're just one promotion away from commando
i do love those city raider 3 artillery right out of the barracks
And those 10 xps you get with barracks, west point and one civic (theocracy or vassalage) or pentagon.
Since it comes so late, best thing is barracks + west point + pentagon somewhere else (IW city will be much faster, probably)

Finally, a general observation: I often find myself waiting many turns to build the two Epics. As in, I may not build them until well into the Renaissance (standard game). Is this common, or is something terribly wrong with me?

wrong yes, terribly no
obviously, you lose GPP if you don't build the national epic asap
but, it's only in one city and it's not always a big deal
Sometimes you need those macemen more than those GPP

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Globe Theater -- Apparently there are a lot of ways you can use this for military benefit. Things like whipping and drafting don't matter if you have the Globe. I haven't really done this...

It's worth looking into. If you aren't using the whip, the natural home for the Globe Theater is a city with evenly distributed surplus food (ie, floodplains, rather than corn).

Heroic Epic -- Build this someplace that has good production, right? Then make sure you keep the production up with forge, factory, etc.

You can combine this with the Ironworks, and that's good. Or with West Point, and that's good too. Seems straightforward enough.

Ironworks, not so much - for the simple reason that your IW shop is often busy with pumping out wonders. Not to mention the fact that HE + IW is overkill (60 hammers base + 100% for forge/factory/power + 100% for HE + 100% for IW = 240 hammers per turn.... when the most expensive unit is 200 hammers? wasteful).

Hermitage -- This seems great if you're going for a cultural victory, but pretty useless otherwise. Am I missing something?

You and me both.

Ironworks -- Placing this seems to be a very fraught decision. I guess you'd naturally want to place it in your highest production city. But then two problems arise.

First, what do you pair it with? It seems like there are several strong candidates: Red Cross, Heroic Epic, West Point. Maybe Scotland Yard if you find spies really useful (I don't).

Second, what if your best production city is also your commerce city, or a major cultural center? This happens to me a lot. You might really want to build the IW/RC pair there, but find that it's also the ideal place for Oxford U and/or Wall Street. Balancing this can be really tricky. Suggestions are welcome.

If (as mentioned above ) Ironworks is going to be dedicated primarily to building wonders, then the military choices are wasted.

Super Scientists give hammers, and Super Engineers give research, so IW + Oxford has some nice synergy to it. Late in the game, though, my science slider tends to be pretty high, and I'm likely getting more raw research from a cottage town (the watermills just aren't kicking in that much).

My preference is the Ironworks/Shrine/WallStreet/Angkor Wat combo. There downside being that's an awful lot of GP slots going to waste.

I've also tried Ironworks with National Epic - on the theory that multiplying the points from the wonders, and the engineer specialists, would be a good thing, but truthfully I've never been all that happy with the results.

National Epic -- I'm still having trouble handling GPs, so this is tricky for me. Put this in your GP farm, right, check. But what goes with it?

Oxford if you want Scientists, WallStreet if you want merchants. The latter fits nicely if you manage a shrine or two in your GP farm. With Angkor Wat in play, the priests specialists really start giving you production kick, which may let you build some wonders there.

Red Cross -- I keep seeing people talking about an IW/RC pair. I see the power of that, but do we really want to wait around that long? RC doesn't usually appear until quite late in my games.

I had some success in a recent game with RC + West Point + an airport. Capture a city, and immediately airlift in a CGIII Medic so that the attackers can heal.

Scotland Yard -- Are spies really all that? I have the feeling I'm underusing them. I sometimes don't even build this.

Well, I don't know that they are going to be a big help in a cultural victory. But the use of sabotage is pretty obvious in Military and Space games, and I've read reports of sabotage used to good effect in a diplomatic win.

But you can't build many of them, and they don't cost a lot of hammers, so any reasonable production city should be able to crank them out quickly enough.

Wall Street -- This is a good one, but placing it gives me fits. My best commerce city is usually my best research city (which is usually my capital) so it usually seems to end up teamed with Oxford U in the capital.

I guess if you have a holy city, you want it there. (In Civ IV, you WANT the moneychangers in the Temple.)

Wall Street multiplies gold (rather than commerce), so a shrine is almost a given. When the circumstances are right, work toward getting two religions in a single city, and the location of WS becomes a no brainer.

Finally, a general observation: I often find myself waiting many turns to build the two Epics. As in, I may not build them until well into the Renaissance (standard game). Is this common, or is something terribly wrong with me?

Depends on why you aren't, I suppose. Heroic Epic looks to me like an easy win, so I'm inclined to suspect putting that one off is an error. National Epic... it's probably better to hold off on this one until you have a good GP farm available, rather than putting it into a poor one.

 

[ese-aSH]

my synergies :

heroic epic + ironworks : this THE military production way ! these must be build in my most producting city. the use of this city is constant production of military unit (most of them to defend or be sacrified).

globe theatre + nationnal epic : to be put in the most foodable city ! THE main GP farm, also usefull for drafting during war times (you should have other GP anyway...)

redcross + west point : a good producing city. Unit built here are veterans, only. I use this city to produce fast-moving unit wich are my scouts, my raiders (they pillage everything !) and when red cross come it allows me to make complex medical chain to assure that all my unit eligible for healing will be effiectively healed

wall street + oxford : THE most comercial city, as beakers and gold both come from commerce these 2 wonders should be built in the same place.

hermitage is usefull when you reach 1300AD - 1500AD, by then you might start a moove to cultural victory, ermitage is needed in the last of your cultural top 3 cities (ranking by culture/turn, not global culture) so that it can stick to the 2 first.

scotland yards : spy... you cant miss them ! theyre one of the key to space race ! scotland yards should be close to your space race opponents, your spy has to stop production and destroy all aluminium mine (aluminium is okay in english ?). If you dont use spy the only way to prevent an ennemy to win space race is war, and you would probably avoid war to performed yourself !

 

[jkp1187]

Just an observation...if your most productive city happens to be your capital city, the Ironworks + Bureaucracy leads to an incredibly productive powerhouse. Add a factory and power supply, and watch the hammers roll in! (And then hold off on any more small wonders until SDI, which can be built in a hurry this way.)

I typically try to combine heroic epic with west point in my most productive *port* city, so that both land and naval units can get the extra experience and production boost.

 

[Zombie69]

I agree with VoiceOfUnreason and disagree with ese-aSH :

- Heroic Epic and Ironworks in the same city is a waste. Much better to combine Heroic Epics and West Point, and then build Ironworks in a coastal production city to build wonders and combine it with Red Cross later on so that you can make medic ships.

- Wall Street should normally go in your best shrine city, not your best commerce city.

 

[ese-aSH]

@zombie : question of preferences, i usually prefer having the minimum military cities, having one able to produce any needed unit in 1 turn is really usefull (i play standart map size).
i'm never very cautious with religion because I often switch to avoid war and finally when i go to free cult the only point is to built a many shrnes as possible.

 

[Zombie69]

Even with only one military city, i'd much rather have it produce units at +100% speed with +4 XP than produce them at +200% speed with +0 XP. Besides, West Point comes earlier than Ironworks, so if you want to make full use of your military city as early as possible, West Point is the way to go. It also has perfect timing with regards to Cavalry, since the same tech gives access to both, and you can also build West Point while waiting gunpowder which allows you to actually make them. Also, by the time you reach the techs for grenadiers and riflemen, your West Point is already done and ready for use. Finally, if you're going to have only one military city, it's great to put in it the two national wonders that give bonuses only to military units, while building the Ironworks in another city and using it to produce other kinds of stuff (like e.g. wonders), since this bonus applies to everything.

If short, if you're going to have only one city producing military units, that's the best reason in the world to put the Heroic Epic and West Point together and Ironworks elsewhere.


As for Wall Street, it doesn't have anything to do with "being cautious with religions" or anything like that. Heck, in a typical game, the total number of religions i found is zero. But i do capture Holy Cities, and those make great candidates for Wall Street no matter what type of game you're playing.

 

[Nares]

I can see the value of Ironworks and Red Cross for later game Medic Carriers, but with unlimited rebasing, do you really need it?

On the other hand, Ironworks and National Epic could be an interesting pairing(assuming you're not working some crazy high GP output strategy from the start). GEP are hard to come by. I know it seems to defeat the purpose of IW, but 3 Engineers aren't exactly not contributing / .

 

[cabert]

I can see the value of Ironworks and Red Cross for later game Medic Carriers, but with unlimited rebasing, do you really need it?

On the other hand, Ironworks and National Epic could be an interesting pairing(assuming you're not working some crazy high GP output strategy from the start). GEP are hard to come by. I know it seems to defeat the purpose of IW, but 3 Engineers aren't exactly not contributing / .

the only problem is that IW come late, with very little wonders left to build

well, kremlin and space elevator, can both see the use of a GE, so is eifel tower or pentagon.
But given the fact that you top at 4 engineers for most of the late game, it will take a while to get those GEs. pacifism can help, though.

 

[ese-aSH]

@zombie : in the late game I mainly play with planes. Having West point in my most producing city is useless then. My late armies are hundreds of marines cover by planes and boats, attacking directly from sea. I do care having a few modern armor (medic thanks to RC + blitz + city raiders thanks to WP ) and inf mec (medic + walk('marche' in french) + combat) but thats rarely the base of my army.

 

[Ballisto]

I had some success in a recent game with RC + West Point + an airport. Capture a city, and immediately airlift in a CGIII Medic so that the attackers can heal.

Nice! I'm gonna have to try that.

How do you pick which city gets Heroic Epic/Westpoint in and which one gets Ironworks?

 

[ese-aSH]

Iron works should go to a costal city.
Epic, which comes a lot earlier, should be in one of the first cities you founded with LOTS of hills around it.

3 or 4 plain hills are far enough. workshop, lumbermill and watermill will complete anyway (percfect place : some food resource, plain hills and lots of rivers =]).
whats the point on coastal cities ?? fishing is quite poor for hamers and AI never build big fleet

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Nice! I'm gonna have to try that.

How do you pick which city gets Heroic Epic/Westpoint in and which one gets Ironworks?

In my mind, the key difference between Heroic Epic and Ironworks is that the Epic comes much sooner - usually when I'm looking at population caps < 15, and at a time when the only really strong production tile is a mine. So the Epic doesn't need as much good land around it, because you aren't working all the tiles anyway (not in the early going). The Epic also needs hills, because you don't yet have the more flexible production improvements.

So Heroic Epic - mines. food to feed the mines. Coastal is good. Rivers are useful, but not essential. Lakes, Mountains, desserts are a small minus (eventually, these will make you unhappy, but in the early going you just don't work them).

Ironworks - landlocked, without lakes mountains desserts (you want 20 productive tiles). River is a much bigger deal - fresh water without wasting a tile, AND clean power, AND a shot at the 3GD. Flat makes it easier to get up to size with temporary farms. Generally, the city gets better the more river edges it has (increased flexibility), so a river junction is ideal.

The Ironworks also opens up a bunch of Engineer slots, so it's a better fit with those cities that have lots (50) of food.

Having the Ironworks in the back lines - where it can easily be defended - with the Heroic Epic up front, where it can quickly contribute troops to the battle line, would be very nice, but I wouldn't expect to see that used as the tie breaker very often.

In terms of pure hammers, there's basically no such thing as too many hammers per turn in your wonder city, but you can reach a point where you are wasting hammers building units in one turn - so of the two, Heroic Epic probably goes into the city with less total production.

the only problem is that IW come late, with very little wonders left to build

Depends on when you get it, I suppose. Broadway, Hollywood, Rock and Roll, Eiffel Tower, Kremlin, Pentagon, Space Elevator, Three Gorges, United Nations, Internet. Plus Apollo and all your spaceship parts.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well the basic Synergies are

1. National Epic with Food bonuses and a Specialist allowing N.W. (Globe, Wall Street, Oxford, Ironworks)

2. National Epic with Food bonuses and Globe and Caste System

3. National Epic with Production bonuses in Wonder City

4. Heroic Epic with production bonuses with West Point

5. Shrines with Wall Street

6. Globe with Draft or Slavery and Food bonuses with Heroic Epic or West Point (or Red Cross)

 

[naterator]

I typically try to combine heroic epic with west point in my most productive *port* city, so that both land and naval units can get the extra experience and production boost

.
amen! so many people put the ironworks with west point. but why? heroic epic is a "military only ironworks", which is all you need in your west point city.

in the late game I mainly play with planes. Having West point in my most producing city is useless then. My late armies are hundreds of marines cover by planes and boats, attacking directly from sea. I do care having a few modern armor (medic thanks to RC + blitz + city raiders thanks to WP ) and inf mec (medic + walk('marche' in french) + combat) but thats rarely the base of my army.

i'd still say you're better off churning out experienced units from a HE/WP city and making planes from everyplace else. the 10 exp units allow amphipious assault modern armor, which are far superior to marines.

 

[pigswill]

Oxford in best research city (often capital if commerce with bureaucracy).
Wall Street in best shrine city (which might be capital). The point of a shrine is to maximise gold at high research levels so if you've been spreading a religion Wall Street is more synergistic with shrine than commerce.
I'd agree on West Point with Heroic Epic; lts a bonus if you can find a coastal production city to house them.
Ironworks in general production city.
So looking at at least two production cities: one military, other military/civ wide wonders.
Globe:high food/low production city for GP Farm/whipping city.
Red Cross-not highest priority-would fit in with ironworks.
Scotland yard-anywhere.

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

Overkill as it sounds, I like Heroic Epic+Iron Works because it allows me to pump out a unit of my choice EVERY turn, and numbers>promotions. The placing it on a coastal city doesn't really apply to me because I normally play Pangaea but I think I might try HE and IW in different cities next time. Units with 3 promotions does sound sexy.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Overkill as it sounds, I like Heroic Epic+Iron Works because it allows me to pump out a unit of my choice EVERY turn, and numbers>promotions.

Right, but you don't need the overkill - at least, not very much.

Normal speed modern armor is 240 hammers.

Let's assume a modern city in a war economy. So Police State is reasonable for the +25%? In addition, we have Forge + Factory + Power (+100%), and Heroic Epic (+100%)... +225% in bonuses. So we need a city producing 240 / ( 1.0 + 2.25) = 74 hammers per turn.

[Reality check: 74 * 3.25 = 240.5 which gets rounded down to 240.]

No doubt, 74 hammers per turn is a lot. I hereby invoke State Property. If you had 20 grassland tiles, you'd workshop all of them for a yield of 65 hammers at pop 21. If you have any production resources, add another hammer (two for the metals, which you mine). You've got two more Engineer slots (one of which I've already used), which are worth two hammers each, so up to four surplus food can be turned into hammers as well. Or maybe you have the Statue of Liberty, and have a free engineer that way. If the Angkor Wat is available, you can use priest slots as well. Getting up to 69 hammers or so takes more foresight than luck, but it's doable.

69 isn't 74 though. To get to 74, you'd probably need to catch a lucky extra resource, or some food and the Angkor Wat, or attach a Specialist or two.

On the other hand... Mech Inf is 200 hammers, which is 62 hammers per turn. So a city with 68 hammers per turn could alternate between Mech Inf and Modern Armor.

If you pair the Epic and Ironworks together, you need 57 base hammers to spit out Modern Armor every turn. which is lovely... but what about the rest of your hammers? Take that grassland city, add Statue of Liberty, and you are already talking 67 base hammers. So what are you doing with the extra 10 hammers per turn? Throwing them away? replacing those workshops with cottages?

Edit: the main point being - you can have one city that pumps out MA every turn, and waste a bunch of hammers, or you can have two cities (one with HE, one with IW) that both alternate between MA and ME. I've got to figure that twice as many units is going to be better, especially since you can now put a promotion wonder in each city as well.

Marathon speed, I'm pretty sure that Modern Armor/turn is a pipe dream; Modern Armor/2 turns should be the same math as above.

Epic speed... OK, so you would need 360 hammers per turn. Put the Epic and Ironworks together... 85 hammers per turn? You'd need a perfect storm to pull that one off, I think: resources, extra food, and you're probably still attaching 4 engineers to the city.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well the point does hold, especially on higher speeds, that you will get more production (still for high military its probably better going IW +Red Cross and HE +WP.. because then you have a Wonder City, and two that can spit out 3 promotion units to start.. assuming either Theocracy/Vassalage or Pentagon.)

HE+IW might be a good combination for a Peaceful player because
1. Possibility of not Getting West Point
2. you need to maintain a big army with the least diversion to keep everyone else happy with you.