Nazi Racial Doctrine

[Yeekim]

Just goes to show how nonsensical it all was, even from their warped POV

Exactly - now that is a post from you I can agree with.

And even less credibility for statements like: "Had the Nazis won, Hitler would have eradicated every Slav in the world". Most of this stuff was kept up with for purely propagandistic reasons. There is a very strong chance it wouldn't have justified itself any more and would have been dropped.

 

[7ronin]

One particularly interesting application of this was in the brief period when Franquist Spain thought about throwing its lot in with Nazi Germany.

Franco did send one Spanish Infantry Division to assist the Wehrmacht. It fought in the Leningrad area.

 

[RedRalph]

Exactly - now that is a post from you I can agree with.

And even less credibility for statements like: "Had the Nazis won, Hitler would have eradicated every Slav in the world". Most of this stuff was kept up with for purely propagandistic reasons. There is a very strong chance it wouldn't have justified itself any more and would have been dropped.

How nonsensical it was has no bearing on how likely they were to try and implement it. Thinking Jews were subhuman devils is nonsensical, yet they tried to do that. think it through before posting.

 

[Agent327]

Just for the record: there never was any "Aryan race", only Indo-European languages. (All that can be said is that Germans, Jews and Arabs belong to the same, caucasian, race.) And the name in post #1 should be Joseph Mengele.

Having said this, Finns and Magyars fall outside the Indo-european language category (as do the Basques).

 

[Verbose]

Exactly - now that is a post from you I can agree with.

And even less credibility for statements like: "Had the Nazis won, Hitler would have eradicated every Slav in the world". Most of this stuff was kept up with for purely propagandistic reasons. There is a very strong chance it wouldn't have justified itself any more and would have been dropped.

No he didn't plan to eradicate them, if one goes by his dinner conversations from the bunker.

What he did plan was to make the a hereditary, analphabetical agricultural servants caste. They would farm for their German overlords in rural villages. Occasionally the Master Race would ride through in their armoured vehicles.

There would be no books, but the radio would be ubiquitous, and when not broadcasting propaganda, it would play light and jolly dance music. There would be much dancing and singing in the post-war existance of the Slavs, in Hitler's imagination.

 

[RedRalph]

No he didn't plan to eradicate them, if one goes by his dinner conversations from the bunker.

What he did plan was to make the a hereditary, analphabetical agricultural servants caste. They would farm for their German overlords in rural villages. Occasionally the Master Race would ride through in their armoured vehicles.

There would be no books, but the radio would be ubiquitous, and when not broadcasting propaganda, it would play light and jolly dance music. There would be much dancing and singing in the post-war existance of the Slavs, in Hitler's imagination.

I think thats quite questionable and paints a picture where they would be like Indians to the Brits. I think they would have been more like the Native Americans to the yanks. I dont think every last one would have been killed, however I could see them surviving as an ethnic group in any real sense past a few decades.

 

[nonconformist]

sharwood, for "the only guy with a thorough understanding of Nazi racial policy", you're making a number of gross generalisations, if not falsehoods, maybe because you're not clarifing between national socalism and nouveau racism.

1) blacks; blacks were not subject to a classfication, and certainly not in between jews and gypsies. Blacks had no real policy, because, fairly broadly speaking, blacks were not an issue. Though blacks did end up in KZ, it wasn't policy.
Blacks were a discriminated minority, but weren't at al where you categorise them.
Would Jesse Owens have been allowed to compete, and would aryan posterboy Luz Long have been allowed to give Owens advice which allowed him to win the long jump?

Why were the Afrika Korps then, the most distinguished troops in the Wehrmacht, and had a clean record? Why weren't racial purification orders given?

2) Mongols so high? Goebbel's line was always the "Asiatic Hordes"

3)You're assigning much too much consistancy to Nazi doctrine.
A number of Jews and part Jaws served in the Wehrmacht, SS and Nazi party, with the tolerance of the Nazis.

The SS ended up a majority of Lithuanians, Latvians, Cossacks, Serbs, Muslims etc.

A special army was formed by the Nazis, the Russian Liberation army, under Vlasov, composed majorly of slavs and such.

Reichsfuhrer der SS, Heinrich Himmler, the man practically responsible for the Holocaust, once signalled to Vlasov his "Comradely Greetings" and commended him on having fought "outstandingly well".
The German press also reported that these untermenschen had fought with "enthusiasm and fanaticism", and they wre named the "Panzerknacker" by other German units.

 

[Sharwood]

sharwood, for "the only guy with a thorough understanding of Nazi racial policy", you're making a number of gross generalisations, if not falsehoods, maybe because you're not clarifing between national socalism and nouveau racism.

That comment was not meant to be serious, and you'll note my source. Perhaps I should have made it clear that it was not the official Nazi Party policy, but that of some of their theorists.

1) blacks; blacks were not subject to a classfication, and certainly not in between jews and gypsies. Blacks had no real policy, because, fairly broadly speaking, blacks were not an issue. Though blacks did end up in KZ, it wasn't policy.
Blacks were a discriminated minority, but weren't at al where you categorise them.
Would Jesse Owens have been allowed to compete, and would aryan posterboy Luz Long have been allowed to give Owens advice which allowed him to win the long jump?

Why were the Afrika Korps then, the most distinguished troops in the Wehrmacht, and had a clean record? Why weren't racial purification orders given?

2) Mongols so high? Goebbel's line was always the "Asiatic Hordes"

3)You're assigning much too much consistancy to Nazi doctrine.
A number of Jews and part Jaws served in the Wehrmacht, SS and Nazi party, with the tolerance of the Nazis.

The SS ended up a majority of Lithuanians, Latvians, Cossacks, Serbs, Muslims etc.

A special army was formed by the Nazis, the Russian Liberation army, under Vlasov, composed majorly of slavs and such.

Reichsfuhrer der SS, Heinrich Himmler, the man practically responsible for the Holocaust, once signalled to Vlasov his "Comradely Greetings" and commended him on having fought "outstandingly well".
The German press also reported that these untermenschen had fought with "enthusiasm and fanaticism", and they wre named the "Panzerknacker" by other German units.

This goes to my points about Hitler certainly caring more for power than theory. This thread was never meant to be anything but general, more to point that the Nazis weren't simple white supremacists.

 

[nonconformist]

That comment was not meant to be serious, and you'll note my source. Perhaps I should have made it clear that it was not the official Nazi Party policy, but that of some of their theorists.

Sorry, bad day at the labs, thught you were being an arse

This goes to my points about Hitler certainly caring more for power than theory. This thread was never meant to be anything but general, more to point that the Nazis weren't simple white supremacists.

Definitly, I recall during my studies that Hitler during his early years in office also gave large sums of money to Jewish shops etc. to try to help the economy.
If you have a source on this, I'd be most grateful, snce I haven't found it in any of my books.

 

[Sharwood]

Sorry, bad day at the labs, thught you were being an arse


Definitly, I recall during my studies that Hitler during his early years in office also gave large sums of money to Jewish shops etc. to try to help the economy.
If you have a source on this, I'd be most grateful, snce I haven't found it in any of my books.

Dude, I specifically state in the OP that I have no sources. This all comes from personal dealings with neo-Nazis, including one guy that claims to be Joseph Mangele's grandson - which is entirely possible, his mother's the right age to be Mengele's Australian daughter, and spent her youth in an orphanage. It's therefore anecdotal, but I was sick of briefly explaining that the Nazis weren't simply white supremacists every time someone brought it up, so I started a thread i could link to next time it happened. It actually better with guys like you and Verbose improving upon the areas I lack knowedge in.

While I do have some written notes, they're not online, and I can't put them on here for several reasons. Among them, I don't need to get sued for posting confidential sources from my journalist days. And it's entirely possible that Dr Joe's grandson has made some 'improvements' of his own to the theory, although he told me this is stuff his grandmother told him.

 

[Verbose]

I think thats quite questionable and paints a picture where they would be like Indians to the Brits. I think they would have been more like the Native Americans to the yanks. I dont think every last one would have been killed, however I could see them surviving as an ethnic group in any real sense past a few decades.

Interesting that you bring up British India. This is Hitler in his wistful mood after all, and one of his great inspirations for what he wanted for Germany was the way the British ruled India, except he wanted the Russians in the role of Indians.

But that's it, Hitler monologing in his bunker towards the end; never claimed it was more than that.

 

[Sharwood]

Interesting that you bring up British India. This is Hitler in his wistful mood after all, and one of his great inspirations for what he wanted for Germany was the way the British ruled India, except he wanted the Russians in the role of Indians.

But that's it, Hitler monologing in his bunker towards the end; never claimed it was more than that.

I remember reading once that Hitler was asked if there was any nation on Earth he'd like to visit, and he said India, to inspect the caste system first-hand.

 

[obliterate]

Nazi doctrine posits that the entire Northern part of the world, that is all of Eurasia outside of India, and according to some North Africa and the Americas, was once under the rule of a great empire (Reich), that of the Aryan race. This Aryan race was tall, around 6'3"-4", blond-haired, white-skinned and blue-eyed. This empire achieved greatness because of its racial purity, because it had evolved to a higher level than all other races of humanity, of which the number varied according to the theorist.

This empire began to collapse due to the fact that the Aryan people interbred with the inferior races, thus losing their natural evolutionary gifts. Without these gifts they stagnated, but pockets of people with a great deal of Aryan blood remained. Finally, the empire collapsed, and the Aryans split, with some going to India.

Sounds a bit like Lord of the Rings history. Numenor. Gondor and Arnor being the successor states but with mingled blood. Rohan being the 'honourary aryns'. Orcs = Jews, gypsies.

 

[Verbose]

Sounds a bit like Lord of the Rings history. Numenor. Gondor and Arnor being the successor states but with mingled blood. Rohan being the 'honourary aryns'. Orcs = Jews, gypsies.

The original Aryan literary fantasy of the 19th c. is Arthur de Gobineu's "Essay on the inegality of the races of man" from the 1850's. And it has precisely the same kind of makeup. (Gobineau and Tolkine were both drawing on the same sources of inspiration, but it's a bit too long to go into.)

The "Essay" was the original inspirational work for a lot of this, particularily for making the "Aryans" easily identifiable as Nprdic/Germanic.

I wouldn't slam Tolkien too badly over this though. The real similarity between him and Gobineau is that both proceeded from the assumption of the existence of "natural aristocracy". Except Gobineau claimed it was for real, while Tolkien made the claim within the logic of his fantasy universe.

In a sense the "Essay" and "Lord of the Rings" are both literary works of massive wish-fulfilment, about how the authors wish things were.

 

[Shekwan]

Funny how they say that Persians are superior because they've survived all these years whereas Jews did pretty much the same. Although I guess they lacked a nation state.

Also where do Scottish, Irish and Welsh ( I guess Gaelic? ) races fit in in the hierarchy?

 

[Sharwood]

Funny how they say that Persians are superior because they've survived all these years whereas Jews did pretty much the same. Although I guess they lacked a nation state.

Also where do Scottish, Irish and Welsh ( I guess Gaelic? ) races fit in in the hierarchy?

Usually accepted as Germanic, since the Celts were, but sometimes as slightly inferior. English, being of direct Germanic descent, were higher in the hierarchy in this case.

 

[Traitorfish]

Also where do Scottish, Irish and Welsh ( I guess Gaelic? ) races fit in in the hierarchy?

The Nordicist view was that the Celts represented "Nordicised Mediterraneans", somewhat like the French, Italians and Spanish- people who were basically of the "Mediterranean race", but had a noteworthy degree of Germanic ancestry due to the Migration Period (and, in Britain and Normandy, Viking Period) immigrations of various Germanic periods. Not quite on the level of the "true" Germans, but above most over ethnicities.
That said, the Nazis tended to make it up as they go along, so I can't say what their particular policy was. Honestly, I don't think that the issue of the Celts ever came up much. The only Celtic region- in the sense of a continuing Celtic identity, and not some ancient ancestry- that the Nazis ever occupied was Brittany, and I don't recall the Bretons being treated much different than the French. Even if the Nazis had managed to take over all of Europe, I imagine that the Celtic peoples would just be lumped in with all the other "non-Nordic Aryans", or whatever you want to call them. We hardly represent a significant population compared to English or French.