[BTS] NC 194 Ragnar of the Vikings
- Thread starter elitetroops
- Start date
still have a lot to learn obviously. Also the war date is crucial, turn 54 is very early!@elitetroops - Thank you again for the extensive and helpful post. Noted on BUG- was wondering why everyone else's screenshots looked slightly different.
Thank you for the explanation of markets! The math makes sense! To me, it seems like Libraries and Unis provide more utility because you cannot directly gain science with failgold and thus are more worthwhile (plus for that second border pop!). Is that true, or is it more of the same idea?
Regarding my strategic play:
@gramm87 Thanks for the quick run through of useful buildings. Would you say courthouses are always worth it, or just in further cities with high maintenance? Is the utility over, say, markets because of the fact that they are always saving gold regardless of slider position?
My game is going well! I should be able to clean up for the win (played a bit more) and will post a post-mortem to hopefully help any players around my level with things I learned from the game. Thanks again everyone for the help!
@Pedro78 Thank you for the writeup!
Thank you for the explanation of markets! The math makes sense! To me, it seems like Libraries and Unis provide more utility because you cannot directly gain science with failgold and thus are more worthwhile (plus for that second border pop!). Is that true, or is it more of the same idea?
Regarding my strategic play:
Spoiler :
@gramm87 Thanks for the quick run through of useful buildings. Would you say courthouses are always worth it, or just in further cities with high maintenance? Is the utility over, say, markets because of the fact that they are always saving gold regardless of slider position?
Spoiler :
My game is going well! I should be able to clean up for the win (played a bit more) and will post a post-mortem to hopefully help any players around my level with things I learned from the game. Thanks again everyone for the help!
@Pedro78 Thank you for the writeup!
I'd say courthouses are rarely worth it, unless going for space victory using corps. Reason is twofold.
Firstly because at that point you are usually building something that pays back better, like units. If you have already taken someone out, move to the next victim, capitulate, repeat until conquest victory. Saving some gold per turn changes nothing, while extra units will help.
Second reason is communism, which unlocks a very powerful civic (state property) and makes courthouses very modest. It's also the direction you usually take if you want to go deeper in the tech tree.
Firstly because at that point you are usually building something that pays back better, like units. If you have already taken someone out, move to the next victim, capitulate, repeat until conquest victory. Saving some gold per turn changes nothing, while extra units will help.
Second reason is communism, which unlocks a very powerful civic (state property) and makes courthouses very modest. It's also the direction you usually take if you want to go deeper in the tech tree.
gramm87
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2015
- Messages
- 41
Well I haven't done serious calculations on courthouses, but I think they are worth it to recover your economy after taking over a neighbor (so you don't build them right away when you get CoL, but a little later). Let's see...
I usually build them when they save me at least 5gpt. They cost 120 hammers to build, so they start making money (120/5) = 24 turns later, which is not horrible, especially if you're playing until industrial era where you need a few dozen turns to modernize your empire (rifles until tanks). Furthermore they become more efficient as the number of your cities increases (NumOfCities maintenance). Finally you can 2 or 3 pop rush-build them with overpopulation.
I have two counter arguments to your arguments:
- I don't think it's so often that you can capitulate all civs without having to take a break to recover your economy, but maybe it's because I'm not a good deity player.
- SP comes relatively later, although now I see how advantageous to get it as soon as possible in a big empire going for a domination win. Even with SP though, I think courthouses have still time to be efficient, and still make a little bit of money after SP.
To summarize you are right that they are not so efficient as I first thought, however I would still build them when they save me more than 5 gpt, or in cities where I have idle population.
I usually build them when they save me at least 5gpt. They cost 120 hammers to build, so they start making money (120/5) = 24 turns later, which is not horrible, especially if you're playing until industrial era where you need a few dozen turns to modernize your empire (rifles until tanks). Furthermore they become more efficient as the number of your cities increases (NumOfCities maintenance). Finally you can 2 or 3 pop rush-build them with overpopulation.
I have two counter arguments to your arguments:
- I don't think it's so often that you can capitulate all civs without having to take a break to recover your economy, but maybe it's because I'm not a good deity player.
- SP comes relatively later, although now I see how advantageous to get it as soon as possible in a big empire going for a domination win. Even with SP though, I think courthouses have still time to be efficient, and still make a little bit of money after SP.
To summarize you are right that they are not so efficient as I first thought, however I would still build them when they save me more than 5 gpt, or in cities where I have idle population.
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2013
- Messages
- 14,977
Yup, CHs are a "maybe if there's nothing else i want" type of building for me too.
Results from many other ways to make gold in this game, they are much more popular in multiplayer i.e. where you cannot abuse AIs
If i capture a big, far away AI city i will certainly consider them as those usually cost a lot.
As mentioned, State Property makes them almost useless thou.
Results from many other ways to make gold in this game, they are much more popular in multiplayer i.e. where you cannot abuse AIs
If i capture a big, far away AI city i will certainly consider them as those usually cost a lot.
As mentioned, State Property makes them almost useless thou.
Last edited:
)!!!
Wanted to give everyone (especially @elitetroops and @gramm87) a follow up- it's the end of the semester and I have been swamped with work so I haven't officially finished the game, but I'm at around 40% for both domination limits around 1600, so I can't imagine it taking longer than another 100 years.
3 reflections on the game
1. This really hammered in the power of a good Navy- Navigation 1 + circumnavigation bonus meant I could run circles around the AI during wars with naval strikes from Zerkers to weaken coastal cities and reinforcing key areas quickly. This was especially notable during the Galley era where I was up to double traditional galley speed.
2. I think I learned a TON (and put a bit into practice) various things about the idea of really exploiting your civilization, through things like settling your cities for food NOW rather than the ideal BFC, heavy whipping, and focus on immediate gold/units rather than buildings. It's a shift in thinking for my old bad habits but something that really paid off.
3. I felt as though my late game micro needs some work. After I took over Shaka I was a world power and it was hard to care about squeezing out every bit of efficiency from my empire (and it was boring!). Looking for advice regarding managing the tedium because I think I will need to focus more on that as I move up in difficulty.
4? I know nothing about when to use various civics (especially religion). If anyone could point me to a guide I would really love to dig into that aspect. Maybe I'll take on a SPI civ for my next game to really get the full experience.
This should be my fastest victory ever and I will be moving up to Monarch, which I have never beaten. Feeling pretty confident.
Anyone have any favorite maps/games they would recommend for my next one? I figure this forum has such a wealth of great maps that I would crowdsource it a bit. I was thinking about finding a leader that seemed interesting and pulling their most recent NC game. Not looking for a particular map style or anything, but something of around average difficulty would be my only stipulation.
Thanks everyone for the help!
3 reflections on the game
1. This really hammered in the power of a good Navy- Navigation 1 + circumnavigation bonus meant I could run circles around the AI during wars with naval strikes from Zerkers to weaken coastal cities and reinforcing key areas quickly. This was especially notable during the Galley era where I was up to double traditional galley speed.
2. I think I learned a TON (and put a bit into practice) various things about the idea of really exploiting your civilization, through things like settling your cities for food NOW rather than the ideal BFC, heavy whipping, and focus on immediate gold/units rather than buildings. It's a shift in thinking for my old bad habits but something that really paid off.
3. I felt as though my late game micro needs some work. After I took over Shaka I was a world power and it was hard to care about squeezing out every bit of efficiency from my empire (and it was boring!). Looking for advice regarding managing the tedium because I think I will need to focus more on that as I move up in difficulty.
4? I know nothing about when to use various civics (especially religion). If anyone could point me to a guide I would really love to dig into that aspect. Maybe I'll take on a SPI civ for my next game to really get the full experience.
This should be my fastest victory ever and I will be moving up to Monarch, which I have never beaten. Feeling pretty confident.
Anyone have any favorite maps/games they would recommend for my next one? I figure this forum has such a wealth of great maps that I would crowdsource it a bit. I was thinking about finding a leader that seemed interesting and pulling their most recent NC game. Not looking for a particular map style or anything, but something of around average difficulty would be my only stipulation.
Thanks everyone for the help!
@trexmix I'm no expert, but as far as civics / religion go its pretty much situational to fit the game. A lot of it comes down to playing politics and managing relationships. It's less important on lower difficulties, but it seems to be a big deal in imm/deity games from what I've seen in write ups on the boards. The best way to understand the impacts of civics / religion is to understand the leaders you're facing, so I'd recommend looking up your opponents in this article https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/ to get a better idea of what you're dealing with game to game.
So if you have a game with let's say, Shaka and Catherine you can see that you only get a -1 bonus with shaka for having a different religion, but up to -3 with Cathy. The higher the difficulty you play on the more military power other civs have in the early game so if you don't manage your relationships properly you could catch an early DoW that ends your game before it even gets started. If a civ has significantly more military power than you and is annoyed with you, you're in bad shape.
Depending on the situation you might use certain civics to boost your relations with another civ as well, and its not that uncommon for players to settle a trash city early and gift it to a war mongering civ to try and keep them from declaring war.
As far as the general uses of civics here's a quick rundown.
So if you have a game with let's say, Shaka and Catherine you can see that you only get a -1 bonus with shaka for having a different religion, but up to -3 with Cathy. The higher the difficulty you play on the more military power other civs have in the early game so if you don't manage your relationships properly you could catch an early DoW that ends your game before it even gets started. If a civ has significantly more military power than you and is annoyed with you, you're in bad shape.
Depending on the situation you might use certain civics to boost your relations with another civ as well, and its not that uncommon for players to settle a trash city early and gift it to a war mongering civ to try and keep them from declaring war.
As far as the general uses of civics here's a quick rundown.
Spoiler :
Last edited:
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
ArchGhost
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2016
- Messages
- 582
It can be helpful to know the relative prices of the civics too, if you find yourself in situations where you're not sure if one option is more effective for what you want to do.
Most of the aggressive/war civics are expensive. Vassalage (while it says it saves you on military unit maintenance, it's a trap as the civic itself is expensive), Police State, Theocracy. These will all hurt economically if your empire is big or you use them too long, especially together. Bureau can too, if your empire has too much glut. The answer to that usually is to double down on your capitol's efficiency (via Academy + Oxford, rushing Market or bank with a shrine or settled GMs, etc) or to swap into Nationhood instead once you reach that point where your empire is big enough for bureau to be painful. Sometimes you never have to bother though, if you stay small, and then bureau is pretty much all gain. Hereditary Rule gets a special mention as it has a hidden cost--the unit upkeep per happy that you want to use--that can get quite expensive on higher difficulties if you have more than handful of cities and try to over-garrison too much.
Other civics that may not seem so hot by themselves, or only if used in a certain way, are fairly cheap. Pacifism and Free Religion are both cheap but have different caveats, and Pacifism can become moderately expensive if you build large armies, but it comes earlier and has a rather powerful effect that is well worth it.. Remember that you can use Pacifism just for the cheap cost without penalties by not accepting a State Religion if you want; you don't have to run a religion unless you want the GP boosting effect. In this case it's quite similar to running FR but you can do it earlier. Nationhood is a good money saver for large empires before State Property, especially if you swap from Bureau into it later-- it can be a big relief on expenses without having to harm your diplomacy standing through a Religion civic.
Free Market is okay--not fantastic -- by itself. You'll want it for Corps, but else you'll usually get more mileage out of State Property because it's stronger in effect unless you are very small. The extra trade routes help out some in crunch situations but they are not as impactful at the point you get it as earlier bonus trade routes (i.e Currency or GLH) may have conditioned you to believe. With Rep + Caste (or at least Libraries everywhere for scientists), Mercantilism is comparable (To FM, not SP), especially if isolated.
Emancipation can be an alternative way to come back in isolation besides Caste + Pacifism or Rep+ Mercantilism. Combine it with Free Speech and spam cottages, and you can suddenly become competitive in the tech race again after 30-40 turns, especially if FIN. It can be truly shocking the amount of commerce you create out of nowhere this way, but you still have to eventually be diplomatic and trade savvy in order to win since if you have to do this you'll be behind already.
Most of the aggressive/war civics are expensive. Vassalage (while it says it saves you on military unit maintenance, it's a trap as the civic itself is expensive), Police State, Theocracy. These will all hurt economically if your empire is big or you use them too long, especially together. Bureau can too, if your empire has too much glut. The answer to that usually is to double down on your capitol's efficiency (via Academy + Oxford, rushing Market or bank with a shrine or settled GMs, etc) or to swap into Nationhood instead once you reach that point where your empire is big enough for bureau to be painful. Sometimes you never have to bother though, if you stay small, and then bureau is pretty much all gain. Hereditary Rule gets a special mention as it has a hidden cost--the unit upkeep per happy that you want to use--that can get quite expensive on higher difficulties if you have more than handful of cities and try to over-garrison too much.
Other civics that may not seem so hot by themselves, or only if used in a certain way, are fairly cheap. Pacifism and Free Religion are both cheap but have different caveats, and Pacifism can become moderately expensive if you build large armies, but it comes earlier and has a rather powerful effect that is well worth it.. Remember that you can use Pacifism just for the cheap cost without penalties by not accepting a State Religion if you want; you don't have to run a religion unless you want the GP boosting effect. In this case it's quite similar to running FR but you can do it earlier. Nationhood is a good money saver for large empires before State Property, especially if you swap from Bureau into it later-- it can be a big relief on expenses without having to harm your diplomacy standing through a Religion civic.
Free Market is okay--not fantastic -- by itself. You'll want it for Corps, but else you'll usually get more mileage out of State Property because it's stronger in effect unless you are very small. The extra trade routes help out some in crunch situations but they are not as impactful at the point you get it as earlier bonus trade routes (i.e Currency or GLH) may have conditioned you to believe. With Rep + Caste (or at least Libraries everywhere for scientists), Mercantilism is comparable (To FM, not SP), especially if isolated.
Emancipation can be an alternative way to come back in isolation besides Caste + Pacifism or Rep+ Mercantilism. Combine it with Free Speech and spam cottages, and you can suddenly become competitive in the tech race again after 30-40 turns, especially if FIN. It can be truly shocking the amount of commerce you create out of nowhere this way, but you still have to eventually be diplomatic and trade savvy in order to win since if you have to do this you'll be behind already.
Last edited:
ArchGhost
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2016
- Messages
- 582
Ragnar NC194 on Immortal
Back for vengeance!
I was really wrestling with whether to do this again or not. Preexisting knowledge of the map means I'll play better (or if not better, with a good idea of what to expect) that is not going to represent a good first-time evaluation. Oh well, I guess either way I could still get AP cheesed, right?
Back for vengeance!
I was really wrestling with whether to do this again or not. Preexisting knowledge of the map means I'll play better (or if not better, with a good idea of what to expect) that is not going to represent a good first-time evaluation. Oh well, I guess either way I could still get AP cheesed, right?
Spoiler turnset :
Chop Workboat then slow build Warrior for garrison.
Spoiler turnset :
Spoiler turnset :
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
Similar threads
