NC CLXXII - Wang Kon of Korea

[elitetroops]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Wang Kon of Korea, whom we last played in NC CLIV. The Koreans start with Mysticism and Mining.

• Traits: Wang Kon is Protective and Financial. Protective gives free City Garrison I and Drill I promotions to archery and gunpowder units, as well as boosts production of walls and castles. Financial adds one commerce to every tile that already has 2 commerce and boosts construction of banks. Financial is generally regarded a very strong trait, which is easy to use, because the benefit is passive. Just build cottages and you will feel the results.
• The UB: The Seowon, a University with +35% science instead of the normal +25%. You don't need universities in every game, but when you do, the bonus is welcome.
  
  
  
  
  
• The UU: The Hwacha, a Catapult with a +50% bonus against melee units. This makes the unit very useful, especially on higher levels where the AI often builds more melee units than archers.
  
  
  
  
  

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Pangaea, random opponents. First map I rolled.

Spoiler edits :

Swapped one resource in the starting area for a strategic resource.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC172_WangKon_Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[elitetroops]

Reserved.

 

[yyeah]

Thats start.
Warrior 1NW and i think i will settle 1NW or 1W dont want to have tundra in Capitol in other hand this plains tiles arent too tempting as well.
tech path Agc-Hunting and should i risk going BW , looks like we are in the middle of wild north, archery looks a lot safer, and wont hurt that much with this furs.

Great to have back NC series elitetroops.

 

[elitetroops]

Played to 1200BC, immortal NHNE:

Spoiler :

Okay, this is a strong start, maybe I should have played on deity. And originally it was even stronger, the edit I made was to

Spoiler :

remove gold from starting BFC... The original map I was given seemed too ridiculous. But I hope there will be some challenges along the way anyway.

So far: SIP, explore a bit, find some dudes, get WMII warrior, steal a TON of workers. I found the perfect worker stealing machine nearby. Have declared on the dude 4 times and stolen 8 workers so far. Didn't even take any diplo hits from declaring so many times, he was just cautious with everybody. My plan was to go construction and start stomping, but this plan changed when nobody seemed interested in the Oracle. Got it very late, 1200BC, could have taken construction, but decided to try a different strategy instead. Oracle MC in 2nd city, will build forge in cap in 2 turns, then run engineer, use GE for mids. In the mean time, tech construction, build an army and start killing. Possibly I head straight for engineering after that, this map shouldn't require much more. Engi bulb should be possible if I want to. Only 3 cities, I don't think I will settle any more. The rest I'll capture.

I avoided alpha, thinking I'll trade for it, but it isn't available yet. Alpha beeline and backfill would have been a much faster path to Oracle MC.

 

[obsolete]

Gave this one a try on immortal, while I re-learn everything I have forgot. It's a good thing too, since I was making mistakes all over the place still. Ahah.

Was able to get domination in the 1700s. Nothing special, decided to let the workers go on automatic, lest some monarch-struggler newb tell me again I played it all wrong by not using any cottages. Haw!

Spoiler :

Did the oracle-->metalcasting gambit... then mids. Instead of going my usual representation route... instead I went for early police state...

All in all it was kinda fun, and after playing OCCs on immortal, this was a joke...

 

[Gumbolt]

Good to see the NC back.

 

[elitetroops]

Well done obsolete!

All in all it was kinda fun, and after playing OCCs on immortal, this was a joke...

Yup, this is definitely a map to up the difficulty. Playing this on immortal is indeed a joke. At least compared to last SGOTM.

175BC

Spoiler :

Skipped mids plan, don't need them. Went for GS instead to bulb engineering, need the road movement mainly. Unfortunately I got an unlucky GE anyway. Will have to part bulb engineering with that one, takes a bit longer.

I took out Pericles, except for some tundra city he settled in the last minute. Went on to kill Boudi completely and currently my old Hwacha+Axe stack is stomping Shaka in the west while a fresh elehwacha stack is beating up Giggles in the east. Feudalism is in, from now on I'll just cap them asap and move on. Shouldn't take long anymore.

 

[yyeah]

Only im going for this Deity pain

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

Have been lurking for a while, playing some of the old NC entries. A new map seemed like a good time to start posting .
Anyway, not a very hard map, but quite fun. Got an early 1500's victory after playing a bit sloppy, especially with regards to diplo, on immortal difficulty.

Spoiler :

Horse rushed eliminated Mansa quite nicely and wanted to go after Pericles with what remained of my army. He was wonder whoring like mad as well as teching quite well. Athens had ALL the wonders for the longest time and he kept going, as well as de Buddism shrine which had spread far and wide. Managed to get 3 cities, 2 fairly useless, before Boudica DOW'ed me and I had to sue for peace. I couldn't get to Athens with a big stack of HA's, sadly as I was planning. Still, probably set him back a bit and he was the scoreleader before.

Turned my attention to the Celts and managed to capture her capital instead, but now Gilg got in on the action and captured a city. I traded for feudalism, but Boudica would not capitulate, so normal peace it was so I could get Gilgamesh off my back. Got my city back and one of his that was isolated from the rest of his cities and he would sue for peace.

I wanted to finally get back to fighting Pericles and get my hands on Athens, but Shaka attacked first and the AP vote came up to end war with the Greeks. I didn't realise I woud be unable to declare if I did not chose 'never' even though I had not declared yet. Le sigh. Everyone but Toku was in Buddism by now, but I could have easily ignored the effects, I was only in Buddism for the diplo bonus, hardly any cities had the religion itself.

Having a few turns of peace with the Greeks to spare and nothing to do with my army, which by now consisted of a bunch of fancy Korean catapults and assorted dudes, I decided to go for Boudica instead. Bit of messy fight, as fights often go in the medieval times, but she capitulated. Moved my attention to Pericles and finally got a hold of Athens and another city. Having lost the capital of the world, he also capitulated.

I was quite behind in tech by now due to eternal warfare and Peri had won the lib race. No one had rifles or grenadiers yet, so trebs and whatever would still work fine. Went for Gilgamesh next and managed to get him to capitulate just before he got riffling. Not before Shaka would DOW on me though. He got a city, but a hastily whipped/drafted force with some leftover siege support destroyed his offensive stack and he was contained. I was quite close to a victory now, so instead of marching my main forces back to take on Shaka, I just went for Toku. Toku had been doing nothing but occasionally defend himself against Shaka all game. He capitulated easily to my military might (I had just got rifles myself now after trading with my techological advanced vassals and Athens fueled golden ages) and that was enough for victory.

This might have been a lot easier, and most of all cleaner, with a bit more careful diplo. I basically do not do micro after the beginning, so I accept sloppiness on that front, but diplo is macro and that should be better.

 

[elitetroops]

@ConfusedCounsel

Congrats!

Spoiler :

What was your reasoning for going after Mansa first? This is something I would do very rarely, because he is such an easy guy to deal with and great to keep around for tech trading. He's presence has such a big impact on the game that in the HoF forum you often see players attributing strong results to "having a strong Mansa", as in Mansa grew strong and helped push through the tech tree very fast. While he is a strong techer, he's otherwise a wimp. He can even peace vassal to you at cautious, so no need to ever go to war with him if you can fill the requirements (you need 2x his land or pop and 1.5x his power (assuming he's a landtarget), and he needs to be below average power).

In addition, his skirmishers make him a tough target for an early rush. I don't know what's up with him in this game though. Not a great techer at all.

You seem to have suffered from some dogpiles in the game. These can often be avoided if you keep track of the AI that can be bribed on you and make sure the civ you are at war with doesn't have any techs to bribe with. To know which AI could be bribed, refer to this thread and check your diplo screens. In my game I sold Alpha, Med and PH to Shaka for 30 gold when I declared on Boudica, because she had too many techs on him and could have bribed him on me. Not that I couldn't have handle him, but I didn't want him to go into war mode and start building units yet, as I was about to attack him in about 10 turns.

 

[Gumbolt]

Up to about 2000bc.

Spoiler :

Played without any reall purpose. Found Mansa and worker stole. Found Gilga and stole another worker.

Agri - BW- TW- AH- pottery - hunting.

Should of spotted the plains in BFC surrounded by forest.

2nd settler on way for 3rd city.

Head towards construction here to grab some Ai land. HA rush would of probably worked too. Nice UU here.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

@ConfusedCounsel

Congrats!

Spoiler :

What was your reasoning for going after Mansa first? This is something I would do very rarely, because he is such an easy guy to deal with and great to keep around for tech trading. He's presence has such a big impact on the game that in the HoF forum you often see players attributing strong results to "having a strong Mansa", as in Mansa grew strong and helped push through the tech tree very fast. While he is a strong techer, he's otherwise a wimp. He can even peace vassal to you at cautious, so no need to ever go to war with him if you can fill the requirements (you need 2x his land or pop and 1.5x his power (assuming he's a landtarget), and he needs to be below average power).

In addition, his skirmishers make him a tough target for an early rush. I don't know what's up with him in this game though. Not a great techer at all.

You seem to have suffered from some dogpiles in the game. These can often be avoided if you keep track of the AI that can be bribed on you and make sure the civ you are at war with doesn't have any techs to bribe with. To know which AI could be bribed, refer to this thread and check your diplo screens. In my game I sold Alpha, Med and PH to Shaka for 30 gold when I declared on Boudica, because she had too many techs on him and could have bribed him on me. Not that I couldn't have handle him, but I didn't want him to go into war mode and start building units yet, as I was about to attack him in about 10 turns.

Thanks!

Spoiler :

I went for Mansa because he seemed like the best target at the time. Both Gilgamesh and Pericles were tougher at the time. I also find that Mansa can be a double edged sword, sinds he will trade with anyone, which can pan out to your disadvantage when you are behind in tech, which can happen if you horse rush and/or warmonger a lot early, especially if you go for a tougher opponent. The additional land Mansa provided seemed like it would be sufficient to win me the game, through production rather than a tech lead.

Mansa's lack of spamming make skirmishers less of an issue, that attack went smooth. They are tougher then archers but rather two skirmishers and a spearmen then 3 archers and two spearmen or something.

Thankfully the dogpiles weren't to big, but yes. Some of them could probably have been avoided. However, I was behind in tech for significant portions of the game though, so I wasn't always in the position to alleviate tech leads, but between that, begging, bribing others onto each other etc., something could have been done at some point.
You are right that it is in general a weakness of my game. I tend to feel uncomfortable giving away techs to civs that could become a target at some point.

 

[Pangaea]

Not checked any spoilers yet in case I decide to give it a go. Looks a fine spot to SIP, and that plains spot may well contain a resource, tucked away in between the forest. Double corn is always a nice sight, and one is wet too. At least 5 riverside cottage spots for some FIN-goodiness. Possibly a little short on hills from what I see in the screenshot, but lots of tiles to reveal, so probably not. And many forests. Looks like a strong start.

Not sure how I would play it. Maybe go for catas just to take advantage of the unique ones. Much depends on what is around us, and if there is a strategic resource in BFC.

Agri->BW I suppose. Oracle would be nice, but those religious techs always feel like such a bad diversion.

 

[Gumbolt]

25bc

Spoiler :

Declared on Greeks and took them down to one city before taking IW, MC, Sailing, poly and archery peace.

Shaka declared on Celts and I have dog piled in taking the Celts capital and 2 other cities. No one has monarchy yet. Celts have 3 cities left. Toku has only got 3 cities too.

Shaka would appear to be biggest threat on map with 9 cities. Should have him pleased soon. Need 8 border tiles to test peace vassel.

 

[Gumbolt]

Thoughts on map.

Spoiler :

The Ai in some respect were really crippled here. It's 75ad and some of these Ai cities are struggling to get above size 4-5. It's unusual to see most Ai struggling to reach Monarchy on a map like this.

I am at the point where I can bribe Sumerians to war with mansa. Rest should sort itself out. I don't anticipate needing any more techs beyond feudalism at current pace.

 

[Gumbolt]

560ad.

Spoiler :

Teched Feudalism and Mansa capitulated on the same turn.

Sumerians, Toku and Shaka are only real AI left here. Greeks have 2 cities but I think Shaka is plotting against the greeks.

Just declared on Toku for fun. Mansa should have fun with him. See how they do.

Declared on Giggles and he has now capitulated after 2 cities fell. His 6-7 strong stack was a big problem. haha.

Preparing for Shaka and Toku 3-4 city empire. Pretty much me vs shaka now.

 

[Izuul]

I've played a little bit of this on Immortal (around 1000 BC).

Spoiler :

SIP. Worker steals didn't work out for me. I scouted west, found Pericles and left my starting warrior next to his gold waiting for the worker to show up. 4-5 turns later he did, but he was escorted by not one, but two, archers. By the time i found the other guys it was too late for the early worker stealing.

This still seems like a pretty easy map though. Lots of commerce potential, room for 5-6 cities just around the capitol, and marble to the east if you settle an ice ball city for it.

I just got the Oracle without intending to go for it at all. Pericles had Poly and PH available for trade on the same turn so i picked both of those up and settled my marble city right on top of the marble for instant access instead of next to the deer. 2 chops allowed for most of the Oracle to be built in 1T. Took CoL and will try to go for quick CS soon, but i also want Lit for the TGL and probably Music as well since I have marble and Aesthetics.

Looks like i can get some action with Shaka for Alpha + Aesthetics. Not sure who i want to bribe him on yet, but I'll probably put him on somebody soon. I might even give him CoL instead of Aesthetics. I'd prefer to keep the AI away from the Aesthetics path so i can delay Music until after CS.

Pericles has 2 horses, 1 not far to the west, so I'll either go after him with some hwachas and take horses, or possibly trade for them later if i want to stay peaceful. I'll probably just go for Cuirs here assuming there's iron around.

 

[yyeah]

Deity 25AD.

Spoiler :

Settle 1W. And start Rexing, idea was that well 1st of all i neeed to practice with this kind of plays, and idea was that i have a lot of in capitol to suport my expansions.
Another thing was that Gilgamesh, settled hes 3th city preety close to me and its guy is ...hmm i dont want to say that Sumerians are expanding fast beocuse there are a lot faster leaders, but hes at least decent with it and combining that with hs Cre trait, he just could grab a lot of land from me.

But yea i did one 3 pop whip too much in Capitol, and had late Monarchy, allso switched in to Judaism couple of turns too late i belive. Consequences of this are that he DoW on me and i just could get him to pleased befor he attacked ( 2 turns after fist).
So yea that was preety big mistake but in other hand i didnt want to switch in to Jud too fast beocuse there are other preety dengerous guys on this map, i did it when they were at war with each other i meen Bud part of Earth.

A little bit behind in tech but i just start to reseching was waiting for academy in Cap.

 

[elitetroops]

225AD conquest:

Spoiler :

Last update, 175BC, I had killed Boudi and was at war with Shaka in the west and Giggles in the east. I was fighting Giggles with a not very impressive stack of WEs and Hwachas, but he was still a sitting duck. There is absolutely nothing he can do against that combination. I could walk around freely with no fear of counter attacks, picked three of his cities, then:

Spoiler :

In the meantime I had also sent a few dudes I chopped/whipped in old Greek cities to take out Pericles' last tundra city.

Not many turns later Shaka had had enough as well:

Spoiler :

After this I put my Sumerian army and some newly built units in place to attack Mansa. Took 3 cities the turn after I declared and the next turn he was begging for mercy on his knees:

Spoiler :

Only Toku remained, but he was in the far corner and my army was slow, so it could take a while to get there. That's when I remembered a neat little trick. First I moved some HAs into position, next turn I gifted him 4 cities, including two of my three core cities:

Spoiler :

I immediately declared and took them back, unopposed, with my HAs. Then press end turn 2 times until he is willing to talk and:

Spoiler :

The trick here is that +40 war success is needed for him to accept capitulation (assuming the other requirements for capitulation are met). Conquering a city gives +10, so as long as I didn't fight any other battles, he would be willing to capitulate. This is kind of a dirty trick, but I just didn't feel like walking a ton of units over the map and keep microing my army through his lands when the game already was won anyway.

So, yes, not very hard map. But I'm glad it's at least giving yyeah some challenge on deity!

 

[lymond]

nice game, elite...which joker did you worker steal from?