NC XXII: Suleiman

[dalamb]

Noble, Epic, restart 4000 BC - 1610 AD.

I decided to play a much more aggressive game. If I'm going to control the continent, I need to do it a lot sooner than the first time around.

Spoiler :

Last time around, I got to 1180 AD and had just finished conquering the Romans, after the Germans and Koreans, and was gearing up for a hard fight against the Persians. I decided I had attacked too slowly and decided to restart with the goal of axe-rushing more instead of waiting for swords. This pause is just before I go finish off Germany's annoying island city.

• I attacked Korea first, before Wang Kon could build up too many archers. Archived with 6, 1 lost to an archer, in 1700 BC
• By the time I got to Persia, he'd created 3 cities, all in locations I wanted to keep, so I needed a more axes (10 on site at DoW, 2 more on their way). I noticed a suspiciously high-value tile off to the west and figured it was his horses, so I sent two off to be in position to pillage. War started in 1025 BC; I conquered Persepolis in 975 BC, and Pasargadae in 925 BC, whereupon Frederick at the other end of the continent declared war. I diverted some war production to building archers in Istanbul, but Freddy never showed up. I had to pause to heal for a while so didn't finish off Susa until 750 BC. In retrospect it may not have been worth keeping at that point, but in the long run it has produced a few Great Scientists for me and wound up being a decent location for the Forbidden Palace.
• Fearing Rome's upcoming Praetorians I tackled Julius next. At this point my empire was overextended but I decided I couldn't wait. I traded with Sitting Bull for Iron working in 20 BC and started building swordsmen. I declared in 5 BC with just axes, conquered Rome in 25 AD, then destroyed his west-coast city Neapolis in 190 AD. I then took a few turns to heal and bring in some swords from Seoul and Istanbul, each of which had a settled GG by this point. I destroyed the last of his cities in 580 AD having had to declare peace once to heal, and having run out of cash in 475 AD.

The next many turns were brutal as units disbanded every few turns from lack of money. In AD 700 I tech'd CoL and started whipping courthouses, and kept city size small until enough were built for my economy to recover.

I tried several wonders and lost most of them by only a few turns, but managed to build the Colossos. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have bothered, though the cash let me keep up a modest science slider (30-40% most of the time).

Finally in 1250 AD I was ready to attack Germany with swords and catapults and leftover CR axes. I conquered his last continental city, Berlin, in 1400 AD, only to discover he must have settled elsewhere; eventually I found him on the island to the NW, which he likely settled after his borders expanded to cover the intervening ocean tile, which I wasn't able to bridge. Meanwhile he had build several annoying triremes to blockade me; I eventually tech'd Optics and destroyed them with drill-promoted caravels. I got Astronomy in 1585 AD and have started building galleons; I expect to conquer his last city shortly.

Spoiler current map :

I've tech'd gunpoweder and am building my first Janissary; I expect to invade Suryanarman with them eventually. Sitting Bull has two annoying cities on my continent in gaps I left from destroyed Roman cities, but since he's protective I'm reluctant to go after him first. I figure I can probably hit the Domination limit without conquering the Native Americans.

Spoiler victory condition status :

Spoiler power :

Spoiler score :

Other small notes:

• Founded Taoism in 1190 AD.
• Circumnavigated with caravels in 1550 AD.
• Won the liberalism race 1570 AD and took Nationalism, having bulbed other techs like Printing Press and being nearly done with Astronomy.
• Four great generals, one each settled in Seoul and Istanbul, one producing a Medic-III chariot, and one saved for a possible Military Academy.
• Two great prophets, one each for the Hindu and Buddhist shrines. A third is due soon; I may use it for a golden age rather than a third shrine.
• A great engineer (at low odds) in 1735 AD; I rushed a wonder with it but forget which one.
• Three great scientists, for an academy in Istanbul (1010 AD, quite late because of he preceding great prophets and earlier lack of a city that could afford to run 2 scientists from a library), bulbing Philosophy (1190 AD), then two more in 1510 AD and 1545 AD whose purposes I didn't record -- likely 2 more bulbs.

A few questions:

Spoiler :

• After taking Seoul I had its Stonehenge for culture, but at 1 pt/turn it was going to take forever to expand to cover the stone. I could have pushed harder to build cultural buildings there instead of military, and if so could have had stone connected much sooner and might have beat the Khmer to a few wonders, especially the Pyramids. But I figured I needed the military production. Is there any way to guess which option was better?
• Back in 750 BC when I kept 3 Persian cities and figured I had to attack Rome soon, I crashed my economy. All I could figure from the numbers in front of me was that it was going to take 350 turns at a 10% science slider (zero income), though I knew that would improve as shrines and libraries came online. If I went for Alphabet first I didn't think I'd have much to trade with the AIs to improve that number. So was attacking Rome the right thing to do?
• I have a great prophet coming up in 4 turns (plus 2 turns of anarchy). Is it better to use it on a Golden Age or create a late-game shrine? If a GA, I imagine I should use the production bonus to build lots of highly-promoted janissaries (running at least one of Vassalage or Theology).
• Is there a better use for my fourth GG than building a military academy? It'll be about 17 turns before I get Military Science, and Military Tradition (for West Point) 8 turns later.

 

[michmbk]

Since a lot of people thought this map was interesting, and since I never got around to playing this until now (when it’s a bit stale). I decided to give it a go with a twist to test myself.

The twist: Research has to be at 0% starting at alphabet for the rest of the game. That’s my only restriction.

Playing this at monarch epic, one level below the games I’m currently playing, and I haven’t read anything in spoiler, so this is going cold. I think I remember mad scientist doing a role play or two like this that I read awhile back, but I’ve forgotten how they work, so pretty much blind into an espionage economy. I do remember the great wall is important for an EE, so I’m going straight for that.

Spoiler :

Should be a good test for me – I don’t use espionage enough because I tend to spend so much time warring, I can’t afford to devote commerce to espionage. So on with the show – settle in place, worker for corn. Tech mining/masonry for GW. Maps and all-important BW from huts. You guys know all the neighbors. Anyway, Freddy lets his worker get too close. I decide that he’ll be my diplo enemy. My favorite trick in the book - worker steal.

And the start of spying:

Freddy takes peace a bit later, but I’m not done. Decide when he settles close to me he’s going to get stagnated - easiest way for me to claim land. Another DOW, and I take his city:

I’ll keep it and block him in Berlin – with no metal, he’s useless against my axe – I’ll get a few more axes out later to finish him. My first great spy pops and he’s settled – all espionage initially focused on wang, a good target for an EE game. Poor Freddy is sitting there building archers with no improvements while I take all the land.

Beelined aesthetics after worker techs, traded it for alphabet in 650 BC, and that starts it – 0% research! Time for some spies! Second great spy pops and is settled. Bait Freddy into sending some workers with archers and take them – so I’ve stolen 4 workers from him to help the cause.
And Fred is done:

Now time to focus on some spies to steal COL from Wang and settling the rest of the land. First tech steal is meditation. Realize Wang’s a bit behind, so switching to Darius as my tech victim. But I had a lot of points on Wang…enough to steal COL, HBR and Monarchy on the same turn! Awesome. Once I stole COL, I started running caste, so I guess technically this isn’t a pure EE – I’m limiting myself to running merchants and artists though – no scientists allowed (although I ran scientists once I had a couple libraries built initially, but none after alphabet).

After awhile with espionage focused on Darius, I steal metal casting and currency. Darius is a good target because JC, Wang and I share religion and I’ve got both JC and Wang pleased. Jc will likely be friendly soon because I’m giving him a resource and likely will be joining him in war with darius once he demands it (they’re at war now).

State of the empire and tech at 500 AD:

As you can see, I stole all of Darius's techs. I just stole construction from him right after he teched it, and generated a third spy for Scotland yard. So far, this seems to be working ok - almost too well. Maybe I should have looked at no caste system, but that would really waste the PHI trait. Next time I try an EE, I'll try it without caste. Running the merchants lets me go pretty high on the espionage slider.

If nothing else, it's a fun new way for me to attack a game to have no research post-alphabet. I guess this means I’ll have to war at tech parity only, which is fine - I'm used to that anyway. My only fear is not getting the steel advantage I so often shoot for. Guess I can build trebs at engineering and save them for upgrade at steel. Only real issue is that I don’t have great production sites yet, so that’ll be the focus for next round - I have 2 spots picked out for good production, just need to focus them. I do have some fantastic cottage sites and GP farms, so that’s making this a bit easier.

Pretty fun – forcing some different thinking. I’m wondering if 2 settled spies is a little overpowered though – Istanbul is generating ridiculous amounts of espionage. I loved this stretch of theft though:

 

[GGS]

1808 AD final debriefing.

Apostolic Palace diplomatic victory.

Spoiler :

Plan 1670, domination/diplomatic in tandem, came off with only one hitch. It took longer than anticipated to spread the AP religion - four failed attempts in a single Ottoman city. A better plan might have been to go for a conquest victory from 1230 AD as capitulation appeared to be the favoured AI strategy.

The game ended with massive Ottoman leads in gold, soldiers, land, population, techs and rainy day Great People. I suspect the key was the early running of the science/GP operation in the southern rice/pig/sugar/fish town. At the end, 233 beakers per turn in a single town at 50% with several Great Scientists sent away to build acadamies. It certainly allowed science-driven wars. Seoul and Rome were more than decorative.

The principal lesson learned? This won't work in most games but it is an excellent new arrow in the quiver. The second lesson learned? The axe-rush games were quicker and smarter.

Thank you all for the game. Oh, and any problem I had with the map was self-inflicted.

 

[dalamb]

Domination win, 1843 AD (Noble, Epic) - my first domination game.

Original game 4000 - 230 BC then 230 BC - 1180 AD
Current game (restart) 4000 BC - 1610 AD

Spoiler :

I have displayed the leadership abilities of Augustus Caesar.

Spoiler place in history :

I took most of my own continent, leaving a couple of incursions by Sitting Bull (whom, as a Pro leader, I preferred to leave until after Suryanarman) and a poorly-placed barbarian city I didn't particularly want but which could have given me victory a bit sooner. I forgot to save when I was near to winning, so don't have a map.

Spoiler power chart :

Spoiler score chart :

Spoiler culture chart :

Spoiler top 5 cities :

I took on Suryavarman's longbows, horse archers, pikes, and occasional macemen, with janissaries, trebuchets, and grenadiers. I had cannon on the way but only a few got to the battleground in time. Grenadiers came online soon enough that all those janissaries got relatively little use. Conquest was harder than I thought because, once I took a city, his huge cultural borders from other cities restricted mine to next to nothing; most of them starved for several turns despite my whipping several cheap buildings. Furthermore, his northeastern city was close enough to Sitting Bull to go into revolt around the time I took Surya's last continental city. His island to the SW put a severe dent in the borders of the continental SW city. In retrospect I should have taken the larger islands to his west, my east, since they were later, had smaller cultural borders, and had no interference from Sitting Bull.

I looked over the "stuff built" screens, which I've spoilered below because you probably don't want to look at them. I found them mildly interesting because this was a much more combat-oriented game than I'm used to, and I thus had a lot of units built (I wait until I have huge overkill on my SoDs) and a lot killed.

Spoiler sort by number built :

[

Spoiler sort by units killed :

Spoiler sort by units lost :

I think I've just recently crossed a tipping point of some sort where I can actually hang in long enough to play a game all the way through!

 

[michmbk]

Round 2 – Monarch Epic with a twist - 0% research after alphabet – only espionage and culture permitted.

500 AD to 1485 – AP cheese!

Spoiler :

Just to put one more restriction on myself – to the extent I have spy specialist slots open, I have to run spies before any other specialist. Want to make it more of a spying challenge. Time to get those courthouses in and get some production sites up and running.

Sure enough, JC asked me to stop trading with Darius, which I did, and to join him in warring with Darius, which I did. Since his city that I liked was lightly defended, I made another use of my spies – revolt!

Another decent city in time. Stole feudalism at 97% chance. Had 2 spies caught though, so need to produce some more. That’s the one issue with this strategy, making sure enough spies are produced along with military, so I can still have some wargames fun later. But spies sure are fun. Actually self teched drama in 58 turns – congrats to me – my overpowered settled spies!
Compass next on the steal list. Then machinery from Wang, and CS and music from Darius – all of these on 97% odds. Check out the espionage from my capital – I think I get the point – settled spies are overpowered.

Heck, even JC wants to “gift” me a tech:

He and Wang are friendly now – I need the AP for some AP cheese, since I think I’m #1 in pop. Wang’s building it, and everyone’s Buddhist except Darius, who has a Buddhist city. I'll need Sury and SB's votes to win, since Wang is involved. SB is pleased, and I switch into Sury’s favorite civic and start gifting him sugar to try to win him over too. Optics and theology from Wang. Then JC gets this CRAZY idea he can build Notre Dame and finish it before I do – the nerve of him. This just won’t do, so:

And Wang, how dare you as well – shame on you:

Ok, so perhaps I wasted a lot of points on that, but it was fun, you have to admit. Kind of sucked when someone still beat me to notre dame – obviously that was pretty dumb, but a fun sidebar. When JC and Sitting bull both DOW Persia, I figure that’s my opportunity for AP cheese win. Gift SB a few techs, emphasize food everywhere, and give in when SB asks me to join in with him in war with Persia. First time through, SB and Sury still abstained, but I had JC’s vote. Saw both SB and Sury go to friendly after 10 turns or so at war, and then was praying for the diplo option again. Sure enough, it popped, and:

Bingo. 0% research from alphabet on. Stole or traded for every tech from that point forward (mostly stole) and a diplo victory. Stats below and tech below at the end.

Actually not bad considering no research from alphabet on. It was getting a little tedious moving the spies everywhere though, I must admit. Sloppy spy play too - I often stole after waiting only 1-2 turns instead of the 5 I should wait to maximize discounts.

I was gearing up for war just in case – the tech rate was SO slow, I had started building trebs, jans and knights to start knocking heads. Kind of fun - made me think outside the box. Never before have I only built 4 libraries in a game!

 

[Amao]

Prince, Normal.

I have a question regarding early rushes.

Spoiler :

I have tried 3 times to rush Wang yet everytime I was disaster. Neither Chariots, nor Axemen rush worked.

So, I ended up used another approach. I REX 3 cities and then beelined construction after I got IW. Then added 4th city to the 2 fish site in the southern shoreline among the jungles beating Wang in expansion. Then, the catapults back army wiped out Fred, Wang in order. Then capitulated tech advanced Persian and Rome. Now, it's 1100AD, Thai capitulated Native Americans. I'm looking forward to build a navy to cross the straight. Millitary indicator says I'm weaker than Thai... But I have Macemen up and running and working on Engineering. My advanced army should be able to beat the other continent rivals or I should build AP and have fun? (everybody is hinduism)

 

[dalamb]

@Amao:

Spoiler :

I played at Noble, only one level below Prince, and had no trouble rushing Wang with 6 axemen -- but is it Prince where the AI starts with archery? That probably makes a huge difference.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

No archery at Prince. They have free archery at Monarch and above.

Amao:

Spoiler :

Both Wang and Fred are close and, without archery, stand no chance if you are fast enough. We have copper in the BFC here, so you don't even need to settle a second city. Just build 5-6 axes and go.

 

[Amao]

@dalamb

Spoiler :

i believe there is luck factor in the game. it's how Wang researched certain tech. in the NC 3 i just played, Wang researched BW and no Archery. And his axemen were butched by my Chariots. Fred was also a neighbor, but his plain city archers were no match for Aggressive+Barrick Axemen

@Ai

Spoiler :

i think my rex slow myself down. if i simply go axe rush, it could make a difference. i'll try that after i finish the current game. thank you.

 

[Amao]

Prince, Normal, 1320AD AP Diplo win.

Spoiler :

So, at 1100AD, I have control of the big continent with Roman and Persian as puppets. And since everybody already had hinduism, I stopped my war machine and turned to build wonders. I started several Wonders all together in my core cities. And should have built AP at where I chopped Mids in the new gained Persian city. I also rotated other core cities to pump GPs. Was hoping Seoul to give me a GPr so that I could pop Philosophy with 80% chances. it ended up gave me a GM, so i popped Banking instead. Built some other Wonders and lost a couple in racing with the other continents.

Anyway, I got AP and immediate elected myself to seat. And then nervously waiting for another 10 turns since I have never had a game with conditions that satisfying the AP win. Then at 1310AD, the election came and I myself was just a few vote shy myself, and with Roman and Persian, here comes my first AP win.

The voting result

Spoiler :

 

[Saru]

The save won't open. Says "Invalid Attachment specified". Anyone else have problems?
Would love to give this a try even as this is such an old gamethread.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Not sure what's going on with the attachment, but I can't even get it myself :/.

 

[ABCDPuppies]

I know there were a lot of issues with attachments/uploads recently. Is it possible they lost old attachments in general during that? I haven't gone back and looked at older threads.

 

[Radcliffe]

Posted this reply in th emain NC thread by mistake -

I am playing through old NC games but as the other civs in those games. There are half a dozen or so games that cannot be opened, all fronm the same period and all set up originally by TMIT. Just go on to later games, where there is no problem (or to the first ten games, which are also accessible).