NC206 - Montezuma

[krikav]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Montezuma of the Aztecs, whom we last played in NC117. The Aztecs start with Hunting and Mysticism.

• Traits: Montezuma is Aggressive and Spiritual. AGG means faster barracks and drydocks, and a free Combat I promotion for melee and gunpowder units. SPI means faster temples, but its chief benefit is no anarchy when switching civics. Despite Monty's usual psychopathic aggressiveness as an AI, this can be a diplomatic trait: it lets you yield to AI demands for civic and religion switches, gaining you improved relations, while allowing you to change back easily five turns later.
• The UB: The Sacrificial Altar, a Courthouse that reduces anger duration from whipping by 50%. This lets you build an army more quickly, giving a critical advantage in warfare.
  
  
  
  
• The UU: The Jaguar, a Swordsman with Woodsman I. With one promotion from a cheap barracks, you get Woodsman II city-attackers who move through forest and jungle at 2 tiles per turn.
  
  

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Planet generator, rolled a few interesting starts, every time I saw one that caught my eye I checked the overall map briefly. Did not check for resources and/or AI land imbalances.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 206 Monty Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[krikav]

Uumm.. Is photobucket down or having problems. Or have dalambs account been taken down? All the images are missing.

 

[krikav]

Things where to silent on the NC-front, so I decided to post this one abit quickly.
I rolled for a start I thought was interesting, and then just briefly checked the overall map to make sure nothing crazy was going on. However I did not study AI positions nor check for strategic resources, we will just have to cross our fingers and pray to the rng-gods!

 

[Kjotleik]

Thanks.

Always good with another NC-map.

I've not been active on Civfanatics lately (like in posting), but I've been downloading all the NC maps. I'll take a look at this one the upcoming weekend... is the plan.

I can see the starting position, but the top three pictures are not there for me. They all say "photo not found, click for photos" with a nice little yawning kitten in the background.

 

[Pangaea]

I can see the starting position, but the top three pictures are not there for me. They all say "photo not found, click for photos" with a nice little yawning kitten in the background.

Fair enough about the first two pictures, but the third is actually the unique unit.

 

[krikav]

Nice to see that you are still around @Kjotleik !
I really appreciate your zip-bundles of the NC maps.

 

[krikav]

Anyone played this one yet? I'm puzzled right from turn 0.

Spoiler :

I really can't think of any compelling reason not to SIP.
1E to grab that other deer is out since it moves of coast, 1N looks like it could ensure river access which can be nice, but that deprives me of the 4yield tile in the first ring, it will also cost me another workerturn when improving it.

Not great cities around, but one could squeeze in 4 more coastal cities right around the capital, one of them being offshore for better traderoutes. This map could be a map for the great lighthouse.
A city 3N of capital will get both ivory and deer with the aid of capitals culture when the third ring opens up, a city there can also help work 3 riverside cottages for the capital.

But what on earh should one build first? Fishing seems like one good option to go for early. just that unimproved deer can get a workboat out in 8 turns.
A big problem here is the lack of useful things for a worker first to do. If worker first and fishing, there will be ages when the worker can't do anything but to stand and fogbust...
Postpone fishing and go straight for mining->bw?
Some unorthodox thing like building some warriors first while teching fishing?
Even settler first could be an option?

 

[krikav]

Still T0:

Spoiler :

Looking at the screenshot now, I realize that all worker and tech-problems would be solved by settling 1N.
That would claim the extra deer and a ivory, keeping the initial worker busy while teching mining->bw or providing enough hammers and tiles to bypass BW completely for a while and just go fishing and onwards.
This would have been evident had one moved the scout up on the grassland hill too.

 

[krikav]

To T41.
I think this map is rather hard for a NC-map. Sorry about that!

Spoiler :

At T5 when it was time to choose tech, I opted for fishing. with 3 hunting resources within reach, and some hammers, I figured that the worker would be busy, and that I would reach BW through fishing->mining->bw in reasonable time.
Planning for the great lighthouse here.
The next turn, I meet Saladin who comes from the west. He is kind of a nice neighbour in that he all but guarantees you to get a religion.

There is absolutely no food north, making a helper city along the river problematic. (I want a city that can basically just perform the task of constantly working the cottages for the capital).
As it is here, that tundra hill east of the deer is a decent candidate, it can take the deer and mature two riverside grassland cottages.

Saladin settled toward me, really squeezing me for land, as the north was food starved. Medina is likely to become a Hindu holy city soon, culture pushing me hard.
On other difficultes, Mecca (his capital) would become the holy city.

Yep, he got Hinduism. Just like a clockwork...
I climbed the grassland hill 2N of medina, and can gaze in the fog that Mecca is on a hill. This is problematic as it will be difficult to conquer since he is protective.
Attacking protective archers (or longbows) on a hill, is not something you want to do if you can help it.

Throwing out some possible city locations. 1W of ivory is not coastal, and is likely to lose it's deer eventually due to culture pressure. However it can help mature two more cottages for the capital, and it's a good outpost, being on a hill, just in case I get a early DoW from Saladin, I can use that location as a hard turtle shell, stocking it full of archers.
In a later possible attack, I could possibly try to goad him into suiciding his army against that hill as well.

BW is in, and reveals a source of copper. the city I planned on the tundra hill will have to move north to gain access to the copper which is a superb tile to work.
Moving it 1N is possibly a gold cheaper in upkeep, and still holds two cottages of the capital, but 2N would instead settle on a plains tile, saving a valuable grassland tile and claiming some more land up north.

Saladin is settling even more in my direction. He might be squeezed in his west too? Espionage indicate that he has met at least one more AI.

T41, Saladin builds SH. This is important.

His library, the madrassa can run priests as well as scientists, and if he doesn't run any specialists at all, he will get a GProphet at T91. So in all likelyhood, he will make a Hindu shrine in Medina at the lastest T93.

I have quite abit of forest, and I have ivory. If I settle these 4 cities and get the great lighthouse, I will get very good teching capability, and could possibly pull of a construction attack on Saladin.

This is no easy map at all, amost like semi-iso, being squeezed by a protective opponent with a love for culture while you have only food-starved land.

 

[krikav]

Starting to shape up to a really fun map!

T42-T66

Spoiler :

Had Hinduism spread to my southern city, very nice, that will eventually let me move that barb-galley spawnbusting warrior into the city as military police. Also I'll be completely safe from a DoW from Saladin soon.

Reaching masonry, starting production of GLH.

I was following Saladins archer up north, but apparantly that archer didn't fare too well, I jump toward that barb spear to try finish him of, if he is allowed to heal and march south he would be dangerous.

Reaching the wheel, there is a pre-whipped, but not finished workboat in the southern city, that city will also 2pop whip a settler and needs at least 40 hammers invested in the settler to do that.
Capital will whip a galley and that will provide some overflow into GLH.
The plan is for the galley+settler+workboat to get the tiny island functional. Since that island is ofshore it will give me +2 commerce in every city.
Getting at least 4 cities quickly is important to reap the benefits of GLH, since each city being coastal will have 3 traderoutes.

Overflow from the workboat and a chop easily reaches 40h in a turn.

Settler and GLH finishes. A big advantage with being boxed in is that you don't have much problems with barbarians.

Kublai is comming with a workboat from the north.

Reaching pottery at T66, this is the overview of the land.
Have spotted a decent city spot up north that I will try to get. The main plan is still to tech toward construction and take at least Medina.

 

[Olafeson]

Interesting write up Krikav. I am currently at T245 of this map on deity NH/NE

Spoiler :

] in the start i was a bit annoyed about the lack of food in the north. Like you i did settle 1 N of SiP and grabbed another deer. It did also free up another spot to share the double clam in the southwest. with the tundra deer. That was my 2nd city.

As you mentioned the GLH, i was also going for it and unluckily i missed it by 1 turn. Lately i have been missing the GLH a lot, even though i had 2 workers chopping into it, did build it with only 2 cities and even did grow capital to size 6 for a 3pop whip at the end. Well that was really annoying and i almost wanted to quit the map. But since its a NC game i played on.

Map is pretty hard, even after the initial rough start and losing the GLH made everything more complicated. Around 220 failgold from the GLH helped a bit, even though the failgold really sucks and getting the GLH is so much better. I decided against an elephant attack against Saladin. Instead i settled the poor land in the north and went for an early CoL to get out some GS.

I was kind of playing a bit confused since i couldn t decide if i go for astronomy bulb or try for Lib. In the end i went for Lib and somehow managed to take chemistry . So i had a decent attack time for a canon attack with maceman and some musketman for hill defense against saladin.

But even after taking him out the game was kind of hard. Do not want to spoil too much, you will see why later in the game i guess. I think i am on track to win this game very late. I am already in modern era and have factories up everywhere

 

[Olafeson]

@krikav

Spoiler :

the clam spot with the ivory looks nice, in my game i had no one to fogbust in that aea and a barb city did spawn which Saladin got later. So i settled the poor land to the north and farmed a bit. Even after Civil Service the cities have been rather bad and a lot of workerturns have been needed to spread irrigated farms to those places.

Will be interesting to see how well your planned elepult attack against Saladin will turn out. I think for a NC game the map is quite challenging. All NC maps lately have been rather hard. At least for me. But you have enough space for at least 4 rather good cities that can share the food resources around your capital. So i think that is quite nice.

 

[krikav]

@Olafeson

Very nice to hear that I have company!

Spoiler :

What turn did you lose GLH?
Did Saladin found Hindu and make a shrine in your game?
I just tagged along for the ride with an archer that Saladin was marching up there, wouldn't have ventured that far north just to fogbust.
There is something to be said for a few cities up north, since there is so much forest, I saw stone there, so maybe one can make a play for alot of chopped failgold from citizen itza, univ of sankore and the philosophy wonder.
But settling cities with just green grassland to CS-farm is not that fun.
Yes, it will be interesting to see how a construction attack goes.

I made this map blind, since I was in the mood to play it myself, and it turned out to be abit more challenging than the random rolled map I guess.
I agree that there have been quite a few hard NC maps lately. I didn't have much success with the Peter one which I abandoned rather early (wasn't in the mood for iso), the Darius one was more managable but I didn't finish that one either.

 

[Olafeson]

@krikav

Spoiler :

The GLH went at 1360 B.C. that would be turn 66? I think it is a date where it can go, still missing it by 1 turn is always unlucky.
Yes saladin founded hinduism in my game and got the Kashi Vischwanath shrine 25 B.C.

Looks like you managed to get the GLH at turn 64, so you squeezed out 2 turns somehow. I am often times very uncertain if it is better to whip something into the GLH like settlers or workers (so your food gets converted into hammers that you can use for overflow) or whip normal units/ buildings like baracks or warios or archers or axeman.

Or to just work mines and try to size 6 and then use a final 3 pop whip to finish the GLH in the end. What is your expierence so far? I really have no idea what is the best way.

 

[krikav]

@Olafeson regarding GLH.

Spoiler :

I don't think there is any specific method that works for building wonders on every map, conditions vary so much.
Here we are abit stunted by having abit ackward starting techs, and food isn't that abundant, so we can't hope to be assisted by pottery and building the wonder mostly from whipping.
So mostly slow-building and chops is the recipie here.

I think that I built GLH with first one overflow of about 35 hammers from my second settler, from a 3-pop whip.
Then I snail-growed back very slowly to pop5? Working mostly hammertiles (the ivory, no mines).
There where many chops, but only from one worker as the other one was busy helping second city getting up to speed.
Finish touch by about 20 hammers overflow from a 2pop whipped galley.

Techpath was fishing->mining->bw->sailing->masonry->Tw->pottery I started building GLH T51.

Lain did build GLH in the Zara game, could be some inspiration there perhaps?

More general lines of reasoning... When deciding what to land chops and overflow into, what to build with food and what to build with hammers, it depends alot on the available food.
With a ridiciously low food start as in NC 202, we don't want to turn a single food into hammers. So we won't whip at all in that capital. And every precious food we want to go into the food bar and build up population. So whenever a chop lands, we want it to land in a worker/settler.
The opposite is true if you have a city that is loaded with food. In that case, you want to redirect surplus food into workers/settlers, whip frequently and ensure that you get overflow, and those hammers from overflow you want to squeeze into the infrastructure and units you want to build.
Likewise, any chops in such a food rich city, you want to land into units/buildings, and not into workers/settlers.

 

[Olafeson]

Deity NH/NE Turn 297 / Diplo Win ( 1 reload, so it does not count as a real win)

Thanks for krikav for the map

Spoiler :

early game was rough. I lost the GLH 1 turn from completion. I tried to play peacefully afterwards since i still had so much space to expand in the north and i did not want to lose traderoutes to Saladin.

First i went for aesthetics for trades, then wnet for drama and won music. Did save the GA for a golden age later.
Was torn between bulbing Astronomy or Lib. Went for Lib and took chemistry for the free tech. Double bulb education and another bulb into Lib.

Saladin was easy to take out with canons. He was just too small and had no real army, also he was far away from rifles or grenadiers.

Then the real trouble began, after i took out Saladin and secured my continent, there was still a timing window to continue my attack vs either Charly or Kublai. But since both of them had 18 - 20 cities, i wanted to wait for infantry and artillery.

So peaceful teching with the help of the pyramids (Representation) i took from Saladin. Then before the attack also getting up factories and infantry.

Then 3 big wars followed. In the beginning with infantry/artillery and the rest of my medieval army. Then later fighers and tanks were necessary.

First vs Charly, then against Perikles to stop his culture victory, and later vs Kublai Khan. Each of them had their own continent, and could peacefully expand to around 20 cities. So basically 3 deity A.I. monsters. But charly was behind in tech (Infantry /artillery vs Longbows and knights) and once i got him, i already had 30 cities and 2 vassals.

Just a small stop to tech flight before i continued the attack vs Perikles.Here i did reload once, because i was impatient and didn t want to delay my attack by sailing to a forest with a lumbermill. I thought my army would be big enough to land on flatland. But he had a lot of artillery and i got hit pretty hard. didn t lose too much but he killed my great medic (infantry great medic). So i had to retreat to my boats again to not lose my army. That was a bit annoying so i decided to reload and land on a safer spot with the forest. So basically it is not a real win, since i did reload after a mistake.


After him it was just a matter of time to grind down Kublai Khan as well. I ignored the small Wk and Justi (each only with 10 cities) and let my vassal elect me for a diplomatic victory.

It was a nice game, even though each war took very long and i had to ship countless troops. So i took diplo win happily, since i was a bit tired at the end of the game.

 

[krikav]

@Olafeson I reloaded after settling on T0, so we are in the same boat.
Will wait untill I'm at optics contact or have a view of the total map and AIs before looking at your writeup.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T67-T110 :

Saladin just continues to make me 100% certain that a construction attack is the way to go. Look at this dude!

Then Pyramids, he already has SH there too.

I was abit worried that he would 5% luck a GEngineer due to his pyramids.

Like a clockwork, he makes that shrine.

This is the situation in my empire when I finish the library in capital. I'm getting a library in the southern city too, there is just too much food and my happy cap will be wanting for some time. The culture doesn't hurt either.

T86 he finally sends some missionaries, happines is really a problem.
T94 I meet Charlemange.

Here I have reached HBR.
Now I'm teching poly to be able to get monotheism and monarchy.
A settler is up on it's way to the northern clam spot. Abit late but I really wanted to focus on research and to build up for the attack.

T101 I get my first trades, I trade construction to Saladin for alfabet, not fun but I need to be able to start trading.
T102 I get Monarchy from Khan for Math+poly, and ironworking+monotheism for construction+alfabet with Charly.

T106 Saladin founds christianity in Medina, I didn't think that was possible, to get two holy cities in the same city, they usually spawn in some godforsaken tundra city.

I trade away Monarchy for Saladins 250G. I'm so greedy.

Fireworks start at T111, abit late I think?

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T111-T117 :

Kind of proud of this plan. This is the stack that I attack with. Medina is so culturally intense, so that it will take a long time to get there.

Unless you go by boat ofcourse, then you can land right next to the holy city on turn one! Not enough boats to fit more than a few nutcrackers, but how to get some units there in time?

Woody2 jaguars ofcourse!

This was very sloppy. I get declared by Kublai. Forgot to beg gold from him before declaring on Saladin.
A small stack that was on it's way to the barb city threatens my northern expansion. 1 sword, 2 axes and an archer. I have two axes and an elephant there though, and the workers will chop another elefant.

Time to hit the holy city! I was planning on throwing away these 4 catapults, but after the initial sacrifice, the second one survived at about 10% odds, the next one survived at 30% !

Elephant and axe make the first dent, then the speedy jaguars move in for the kill.

This city will be absolutely lovely once the war cools down. ToAR in a coastal city with GLH, dandy!

Saladin wants peace the next turn, and is even willing to pay me 10g for the peace treaty, I decline since I need to at least get the pyramids too.

He throws away his units up there, grabbing the barb city.

A jaguar leaves the stack that is busy bombarding the hill city of Mecca to steal a careless worker.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T118 :

The RNG-goods remember what happend in Medina and demand their due, 4 out of 6 catapults perish, some at very good odds. Mecca is an awesome city, Baghdad in the south is a nasty city on a hill that doesn't have a food resource, and I hope I can grab the clams soon from it.

I get the barb city, and I get to kill Saladins units too.

Nasty units close to Medina, I don't want to trade units if I can avoid it... Time to get a ceasefire.

I think that I will attack again in 10 turns, I'm on my way to Machinery and it would be nice to prop up my SoD with a bunch of xbows.

Medina is just out of revolt, looking splendid!

I got a GMerch as a first GPerson, so I lack an academy, but the cash really helped me to keep teching even though I pay alot in unit upkeep.
I seem to be kind of isolated, and since I have started teching toward machinery (I thought that it would be best to shoot for engineering, to make sure I could defeat Saladin) then it's a nice option to go for optics and possibly an astro-bulb. But I have also started building the colossus for failgold, and now I'm only 3 turns away from completing it, and all of my cities are coastal, most have seafood... So I'm abit torn in that regard.
(Astro obsoletes Colossus).

Saladin has his own ivory, and got HBR now, so I'm likley to face elephants if I attack him again. I also saw a horse archer, even though there is no horses on our island. Possibly he has traded with Kublai, or he has settled some ofshore island with horses.
Charly is up at 13 cities, which is kind of scary.