Need help making the jump

[Swedishguy]

Rush Axemen and use the Philosophical trait OR the Financial trait (not both). It helps!

 

[namliaM]

Rush Axemen and use the Philosophical trait OR the Financial trait (not both). It helps!

Hmz, the poor guy is stuck without ANY metal what so ever... Axemen are out of the question for the time beeing. But thanks for your input tho

56: Writing is done - which is good since my cities are running out of things to build. Sparta starts a library and I pick AH for the next research.

Hmz, you went the Writing => AH way anyway...

Horse Riding

Now this could be a solid choice... Horses are your only line of defense at the moment.

60: Zara gives me a call, wants Open Borders. In the past I have always said no to this,

Bad mistake... to not open borders. No open borders costs a lot in lost commerce. This alone makes good on 1 level, Get OBs with everyone ASAP.

I get the Library done fast.

Dont over use it now...
I sure hope you put some hammers into the library before you whipped it. There is a severe penalty on whipping anything without any production started on it.

Athens makes military units so fast, I'll build a barracks there

You build 2 archers without a barracks there? OK not to bad of anything but... barracks is a solid choice !

I turn one of Athens citizens into a Scientist. I'm just experimenting at this point.

For an experiment OK... but production mixing with GP generation is usually not a good thing.

Corinth needs to finish that settler, which I probably should have built somewhere else.

You build a settler in a size 1 city ??? You are right... probably should have build it some place else....

67: Horseriding is done. With the continent explored, 3 turns on Sailing seems like a good investment.

Good choice, do you know why tho? NOt cause of the 3 turns, but it enables trade along the coast, allowing you to start trading with the AI.

Thebes is founded

Please explain to me WHY you founded it on the gems tile?? WHY??
This is a leathal sin to found a city on a grass gems tile!, moreso since you also pick up 3 mountains in your BFC. 1 West would have been SO MUCH better.

Athens is unhappy again, and I notice the scientist I created is gone. Hmm - I need to understand why that happened.

This is party due to the (heavy) whipping of Athens, I propose you use this time to run the scientist again. Take away some food by removing one of the crabs, the city is now stagnated (not growing) so the 1 angry person can "heal" and get happy again.

**HAPPY/UNHAPPY**

You just about got it...
The easy way tho... Open up a city and look right next to your production (galley in Athens at the time of the new save) next to that it says 6 < 7
This means your "happy cap" is 6 and you currently have 7 angry folks.
Now put your mouse over this part and the game will show you how this is build.

We just enjoy life is the "default" happiness you get for playing your difficulty level. As you go up this figure goes down. Less pop for free makes the game harder to play.

**GENERAL**

In general I think you are making progress and yes you still are making mistakes but that dont matter.

Why tho build stonehedge? It enables free monuments which we established earlier you do not need. Therefor you do not need Stonehedge??

Why research Horseback riding? You are yet to build a barracks or a single Horse Archer

On the risk of to much information:

Worker actions:
- Athens
It is working a forrested hill, meanwhile it also has 2 cottages not beeing worked, work what you build with the workers or work-er something else... In this case I think Athens needs the production of the hill, not (yet) the commerce of the Cottages. Mining that hill would have been better use of your worker turns.
Right now tho, you need to mine that hill ASAP as you are losing 1 hammer EACH turn. Lets say you are now at turn 76 and you worked that hill for atleast 25 turns, in another 25 turns you would have had a "free" HA (Horse Archer)

- Thebes
The road to thebes, why? It sure doesnt need one as it is on the river, automagicaly connecting it to Sparta and the rest of your empire.

Tile working
- Sparta
Sparta is working a grass hill (1 food 3 hammers) while it is not working the Cows (3 food 3 hammers) and/or the farmed Banana (4 food). Food is king! Work those food tiles, open up the city and re-assing the workers or click on the city center to do so automaticaly.

Having 120 gold in the bank is rediculous much this early in the game. But do not let your gold go away all together, you need some reserves to handle events... Keep it floating at about 50 for now (early game) but as you progress this reserve should increase slowly... ever so slowly...

Research, Calander... hmz, when are you going to build them Plantations and what are they going to bring you i.e. WHY research calander?
Many worker turns (Mine(s) at Athens, Farms and cottages at Corinth and Farms, mine and Cottage(s) at Thebes) need to be invested, before (I think) you can start Plantations. It is atleast some turns before you can start them Plantations (again I think) tho you need time to research calander too.

Now happiness = bigger cities = More cost but also more commerce...
What else will calander bring? Some food for Sparta IF you work the banana
and a food and a commerce at Thebes.
Lets examine some alternatives...
- Metal Casting
Forges allways nice, more production = stronger cities.
- Masonry
If you going to build a wonder, build a usefull one! Meaning not Stonehedge.
Pyramids, Great Lighthouse or even The measly Greatwall are much better if you build a World wonder at all. All require Masonry.
- Alphabet
Start tech trading, tho this should really not be a factor... Maybe you can trade for some religious techs ?
- Currency
Get an additional trade route in each city +2 commerce in most cases, this means 4 cities * 2 = 8 commerce bonus automatic, no tiles to work nothing. Allways a good tech to get.
- Construction
A warmongers choice, you need them catapults if you are a warmonger. Colloseums are a builders reason to research this tech.

Aesthetics, Meditation, Polytheism and Compas I wouldnt touch yet.
Compas, who needs harbors at this moment where only Athens would benefit from it. Also I think, you should never research Compas before Currency. Currency doubles your trade routes in all your cities, a harbor only puts 50% bonus in 1 city.

Meditation + Poly are allready researched by the AI, no religion to get. Which might have been a reason to get either.

Aesthetics, brings nothing for the time beeing.

Still some more stuff on my mind... but I think I will leave it at this for now...

 

[davhey04]

Thanks for all the excellent comments and advice namliaM! I'll try to heed them in my next 25 turns!

So I don't miss the point, you seemed to feel my location for Thebes was my worst mistake. Can you explain more why it was such a bad location. Don't I still get the gems even if I cannot mine them? (I thought if you built a city on a resource, you don't have to mine it.)

 

[Rub'Rum]

You do get the ressource if you build a city on it, but you can't IMPROVE the resource because your city is on it. Improving a resource with a mine really increases its output and is more useful to your city.

 

[davhey04]

Thanks SimonL - that helps me see what a bad move that was

Well - live and learn!

 

[Rub'Rum]

I guess it can be a good move to put a city on resource... sometimes... If it's on a strategic resource, for example, if you happen to have the only patch of iron in the world (hehe) well, if you put a city on it, nobody can have it unless they capture your city, no pillaging crap... But I rarely think of it in this way, I'd rather have the iron the production bonus and all.

 

[namliaM]

Simon said it, improving.... I think you will notice the difference if you look at the mined gem and what your city is producing. Also the 3 peaks/mountains are a dead give away, you can NEVER work those mountains.

There are SOME cases. Like I would settle ON TOP of the gems to the West of Thebes, because this city would be/is geared to production and needs the food from both the banana and (IIRC) Rice.

 

[shmoolie]

I've learned a lot from this thread. I can't wait to try these out tonight.

 

[davhey04]

I'm glad to hear this thread is helping someone else out Maybe I'm not the only lost sheep after all.

I'll try to get another 25 turns in in the morning and post another log of my (ahem) progress.

 

[Verge]

My schedule is starting to clear up, so picked up my shadow game again. I decided to go ahead and try for a largely peaceful win, playing until Turn 90 or so in what little playtime I had tonight.

I haven't figured out if I'm going to do a play by play of my game, or just power through the whole game and write up a single, comprehensive postmortem. We'll have to see.


Good stuff in this thread so far, however.

 

[davhey04]

**Actions at start based on previous feedback**

Sending a worker to the hill east of Athens to get that mine built recommended by namliaM.

Redirected a citizen from the 3H1F hill east of Sparta to the 3H3F farm to the west. Sparta now grows in 2 turns instead of 6!!

Economy now at -3 GPT and the supply down to 39. Going to shift to 80% research just to get a little money in the bank. I'll look for ways to improve my GPT, like switching my research to Currency (which I do.)

**Turn Log**

Turn 77: Worker starts building a road to connect the horses south of Sparta.

Turn 78: Galley is done in unhappy Athens. I'll build a Stable to take advantage of the horses I'll soon have access to. This time - no whip! (Didn't know the unhappy penalty was increased if you whip a building right away.) Most of Athens unhappiness comes from overcrowding. A citizen on the Farm moves Athens from 'starving' to 'grows in 1 turn'. Will the size 7 city fix the unhappy problem? I'll know next turn. I also start the mine construction. Time to move my Galley (renamed the Learning Experience). Since the east coast is well explored, I'll head west.

Turn 79: That sound you heard last turn was namliaM smacking his forehead. Nope - growing to a 7 only made things worse. Now I have 2 unhappy folks in Athens. I now remember that I can starve out the unhappy people to 'heal' them. I restructure things to shrink Athens and get the Stable done faster.

Still can't shake the feeling I'm doing this wrong. I thought the growth of the city was in the size of the people it can support - not in the number of citizens. I guess it is both, which means a size 7 Athens would have 7 citizens. They all start unhappy. There are 6 things making them happy (resources, life and the palace) but one extra thing making them unhappy (my oppressive whipping). Resulting in a 6/8 split. So, without the whipping it would still be 6/7 - meaning the happy cap was 6 and I never should have gone over it. Aha! So, until I find a new way to make Athens happy, it can't get past 6.

Turn 81: The much maligned settler in size 1 Corinth is done. I pick Library next here - its well defended and too small to build much until I work on it. After looking at a few spots for the settler, I pick a location south of Thebes with Cows, Iron (!!) a few hills and a river.

Turn 84: Athens (again happy at size 6) finishes the Stables. I pick Horse Archer over Chariot for a build, Horse Archer seems better - though neither receives defense bonuses.

Turn 85: Horse Archer done right away due to chopping. Queued up another, might put one in each city. The new one heads out to defend the cow/iron city when it gets built. Thebes finishes its Archer and gets a Library. I really need to get someone mining those Gems next to Thebes. I notice Sparta is about to become unhappy in one turn so I do a little reassigning to slow that growth to 4 turns from now.

Turn 87: Argos is founded, with access to many good resources. Happy with my choice of city location, I tried looking at the BFC to help. Even with the Horse Archer coming, I still pick a Warrior for my first build. I glance at the top left of the screen and YIKES! -5 GPT even with 80% research. Let's see if I can figure out why. Hmm, as I suspected Argos' distance from the Capitol is at least part of the problem - it costs me 2.6 GPT. I general though I see that I have only one city (Athens) that makes more gold than it spends. Looking around, the problem doesn't seem immediately fixable, so I drop research to 70%. Still losing 1 GPT.

Also, the second Horse pasture is done. I wonder if I really needed to build that road to it - or I could I have just built a one tile road to the river.

Turn 88: Ok Stonehenge is done, and I can see why I didn't need it. But - its points in the score I guess. Barracks for Sparta. Sparta was supposed to grow in one turn and become unhappy, so I turn a citizen into a scientist. Voila! A stagnant city and +4 science to help my ailing research efforts.

More importantly, Corinth is a 2. I find that by moving a citizen off the rice farm and on the cottage, I only lose one turn on growth but pick up almost a gold in profit. I have never worked the cities on this level of detail before. Even if I am doing it wrong, I think it's progress.

Turn 89: Currency is finished, and my GPT is +1 now. Athens finished Horse Archer #2, and I pick a Market to try to get my economy fixed. Quick 2 turns for Masonry so I grab it.

Turn 91: Masonry is done, I pick Metal Casting next - Forges seem like nice options. I make a few phone calls - Zara agrees to give me 1 GPT for my extra cows. Asoka makes the same deal for my extra Clams. I'm smart enough (I think) not to trade my extra horses. Now I'm at +3 GPT, 41 in the bank. Bumping research to 80% puts me at -1, so I leave it at 70%. I move a citizen around in Thebes, slowing growth but raising profitability.

Turn 92: Corinth, now a 3, finishes it's Granary. Not sure of what else to build there - I pick walls.

Turn 95: My economic changes have paid off, and I can now switch research back to 80%. Proud? A little.

Turn 98: Sparta produces a Great Scientist! Good news - but oh the pressure of what to do with him. A decide on the Academy for a long term benefit. Since Sparta produces slightly more research than Athens (17.75 to 17.0) I'll build it right here.

Turn 99: Metal Casting is done, I pick Code of Laws to get Courthouses. That should help places like Argos and Corinth not be so expensive.

***

Well that's it. I look forward to the feedback. I have one burning question today:

How do the trade routes between my cities and foreign cities form? It seems almost random. I'd like to understand that better.

Thanks a thousand times for all the help and encouragement!

 

[Rub'Rum]

As for trade routes: the game optimizes them. For each of your city, it looks at all of your cities and foreign cities that are available (connected to your trade network via harbours/roads and open borders etc.) and picks the combination that will give you the best revenue. Each of your city and foreign city can only be used once though, if I remember well... So if your capital is connected to Bob's capital, then none of your other city can connect to Bob's capital. But all in all, you don't really have to worry about that because, as I said, the game optimizes it. That's what I always thought anyway. It's just important to know what alters the number of trade routes per city (some technologies, civic systems and buildings). Also, mercantilism only allows trade routes within your own country, which may or may not be a blow to your economy depending on how your game is going. I never used Mercantilism, I don't know when to use it.

 

[LilBoyBlu]

Guys tanks for taking this project on. This is fun to read/watch, and I am learning a lot in making smart early choices. I used to play Civ 3, and can win a noble game most of the timewith a score of between 5,000 to 10,000. But jumping up means learning to make hard choices early, and knowing what the costs & ebenfits of early choices will be. Opportunity Cost ! Like that early stonehenge choice Davey Made .. I Used to LOVE stonhenge! Davey keep up the good work man .. I appreate every choice namliaM has scolded you for because I'd either do the same thing or never appreciate what i SHOULD have done. Rivers count as roads ? Really ? Grass Gems should ALWAYS be a cottage ? really ? NEways keep up the good work thanks guys !

 

[namliaM]

This time - no whip! (Didn't know the unhappy penalty was increased if you whip a building right away.)

This is not true, the unhappiness stays the same, but.... you get less hammers per population point you use to whip. Simple rule of thumb for whipping, atleast put 1 hammer into a given building/unit before whipping it allways with 2 or more pop if you can...

Turn 79: That sound you heard last turn was namliaM smacking his forehead. Nope - growing to a 7 only made things worse. Now I have 2 unhappy folks in Athens. I now remember that I can starve out the unhappy people to 'heal' them. I restructure things to shrink Athens and get the Stable done faster.

Unhappy people? Yes growing makes more people unhappy. Work lower food tiles/hills/cottages if you are at the happy cap.
Whip ASAP if the unhappyness for whipping is gone and the pop has grown back (this atleast is my resolve)

Corinth is done. I pick Library next here

Does it have a Granary yet? Granary generaly first (again this is what I do)
More pop = more commerce and more whipping for more production.

I pick Horse Archer over Chariot

Thebes finishes its Archer [/qoute]
At this point why did build thebes build an archer? Your capitol has a barracks, any units should from now on be build in cities with barracks, any horse units should be build in cities with stables.

growth to 4 turns from now.

See this is good, IF you have whip angry people in the city, else GROW GROW GROW and ...

Turn 87: Argos is founded, with access to many good resources.

Could not really miss could it? It will need some farming but... it will do...

YIKES! -5 GPT even with 80% research.

Yep cities cost gold, dropping to something like 50% is not to bad...

More importantly, Corinth is a 2. I find that by moving a citizen off the rice farm and on the cottage,

Yep progress definatly, knowing what you can do with this is a good thing!
Tho, like you said this is a mistake, cause if you have room to grow... grow... and do so without delay => Work the high food tiles! ! !

....I pick a Market .... Quick 2 turns for Masonry ....

Why those 2 choices?
What will Masonry bring you? Walls? Wonders?
What will the Market bring you? 25% of 3.4 gold = 0.8 gold ! WOW, A courthouse in Argos will make 1.5 gold... Tho I dont think its a bad choice, but there could be better ones.... Lighthouse/Worker/Settler.... IMHO would have been better.

Metal Casting next - Forges seem like nice options.

This from the man that didnt build a single forge in his last game???

Not trading your horses makes sence if you plan to stomp on your AI friends. If you go lovy doffy, no need to be greedy. Go get the GPT... it will help your research, or try to get some resources from them. Also... the deals are renegotiable in 10 turns. Dont sit on the deals untill the end of the game reinspect them from time to time.

I pick walls.

Walls? What is with the walls? Lighthouse in Corinth is much more usefull as is the

Sparta produces a Great Scientist!

tho long term... I dont know... and what happened to the GP points in Athens?

MC => COL good choice... again...


Questions:
- Why the citizen in Athens? Working one of the cottages or even just getting a scientist is much better. Putting cities on stagnate -in general- is not a good idea.
- Why work the coast in Corinth?
- Why are cities working uninproved tiles? (Corinth and Thebes in particular)
- Why do you have a worker farming a Jungle tile near Thebes, if there is open grassland which can be improved much faster?

Trade routes do work automatic and do pick the best routes for your best cities.
Foreign routes are better than national ones (more gold)
Foreign trade routes tho are limited to 1 route per city... so you can only have 1 route to any given foreign city.
National routes you can unlimited routes to any city

 

[namliaM]

Grass Gems should ALWAYS be a cottage ? really ?

Blasfamy ! you are from now till monday December 15 ! prohibited to play any civ at all ! ! ! ! !

MINE gems MINE !

In this game there is a good example of the exeptions there are to this rule, but MINE them gems.

 

[Boffinbox]

All,

I know it will be hard to not fall apart laughing, but I am stalled trying to make the jump from Chieftain to Warlord.

(Waits for laughter to die down...)

No - I'm serious. I win 100% of the time on Chieftain but struggle just to survive to the end of a game on Warlord.

Some facts:

- Despite this, I LOVE Civ and am hooked. I have both C IV Expansions
- I'm not brand new to Civ - played 2 & 3 though had similar troubles
- I generally do not try for military victories

I think my problem has to do with not managing my citizens well, but my efforts there have not made things better. I have read over the many tips and strategy articles on this site (which are great) but something still is not connecting in my head. One thing is consistent, my games either end in me being wiped out or falling drastically far behind in research.

Perhaps if I understood what changes in the game and the AI between the two levels it might help. Or if anyone remembers what hills they had to learn to climb to get over this hump?

Any help, or even gentle mocking, is appreciated!

Yeah, well i struggle on settler with no enemies. Be grateful on what you can achieve.

"There is enough for everyone's need, but not for everyone's greed"
Gandhi (no he does not say that in Civ)

Even worse piles of laughter

 

[Boffinbox]

Blasfamy ! you are from now till monday December 15 ! prohibited to play any civ at all ! ! ! ! !

MINE gems MINE !

In this game there is a good example of the exeptions there are to this rule, but MINE them gems.

Get yer date right December 15 is on a friday

 

[namliaM]

Get yer date right December 15 is on a friday

Uhm... no actually its a saturday... but who said I was talking about this next december 15th?

 

[King Jason]

There are some times when I think reading about civ is just as enjoyable as playing the game itself. Reading this thread is one of those times.

Turn 79: That sound you heard last turn was namliaM smacking his forehead.

Just popped into say this gave me a hearty chuckle.

Keep up the good work Davhey, progress is progress, regardless. I'd say discovering Whipping and Specialists all in one game is quite the leap so far.

Have fun.

 

[Herocrafter]

I'm following the progress and learning along the way too.