Need help making the jump

[namliaM]

I guess my original question was whether or not epic or marathon speed make the game easier...

It totaly depends on your playstyle:
Peacefull builder:
Faster speeds = easier
Warmonger:
Slower speeds easier

This is due to the fact that at Marathon your units do not outdate so fast as they do as Quick. This makes it easier at Quick to be the defender, if you start a war with Maces (offensively) you might be looking at knights or Musketmen pretty soon.

Where as at marathon it requires a significant amount of beakers more to get from macemen to Knights/Muskets... therefor you can finish the war with the same units you started.

Same thing goes for mapsize, the bigger the map... the slower the techs...

 

[Brian Boru]

Great thread guys!

Davey, one thing I found very useful early on was to play Custom Games [main menu > single player > custom game] where I'd pick a leader, turn off various things, reduce number of opponents etc.

So eg you want to focus on learning the economy and research aspects of the game--turn off barbarians, war and tech trading. Play 50-200 turns and then start again with same/other variation.

There's too much going on in Civ to take in all at once imo. So break it into chunks and you should make progress faster. Btw, a good variation to learn city management is the One City Challenge option.

Re research %:

As Namlia said, the overall number of beakers you're producing is the key, not the slider %. I find that around 60% seems to be the sweet spot for a balanced [economy, military, number of cities] civ. That is, I have enough cities and units costing me upkeep, but they're generating good commerce so I'm still teching quickly.

Sometimes though, you're research can be at 20% and you're doing fine--typically after building or conquering a number of cities, which have upped your upkeep costs. Your priority then changes from expansion to upping your economy.

You're making good progress in this thread, thanks to Namlia's great help--keep it up

 

[davhey04]

Thanks to all for their comments - and welcome to the new comers to the thread.

**Actions at start based on previous feedback**

Lots of great points from namliaM about how to fix my unhealthy crisis in Athens. I give Zara a call to see what he wants for the wine. His offer seems crazy - cows, rice and gems all for wine? I lose 2 health producing resources to gain 1? No thanks. I ask him if he will spare it for me for free - we are good friends after all. To my shock - he agrees! Like a good neighbor, Zara is there. The wine won't help until my cities have grocers, but I'll get on that as soon as I can. Next I call up Akosa and break the news that I am going to need those clams back. Once that is done, the skies over Athens clear and clean air fills the skies.

Trying to understand the ratio between the science slider and science output, I reduce the slider to 80%. This puts me a +11 gpt.

Trying to get the city specialization and tile usage down, I'm going to look at my big cities to see what it is they do best. I understand that a lot of this is a result of what tiles are being worked now and what buildings are in the city, but it's a start.

ATHENS (14)
Sci: 66
Cul: 25
Esp: 6
Gpt: 13
Prd: 28

CORINTH (13)
Sci: 37
Cul: 22
Esp: 2
Gpt: 24
Prd: 5

SPARTA (12)
Sci: 54
Cul: 30
Esp: 2
Gpt: 14
Prd: 22

THEBES (11)
Sci: 28
Cul: 14
Esp: 4
Gpt: 5
Prd: 15

ARGOS (9)
Sci: 14
Cul: 17
Esp: 2
Gpt: 2
Prd: 21

Ok, the first thing I notice is that my Capitol is the best at Science and Production. Sparta seems similarly well rounded. Other things that jump out are that Corinth is a gold factory, but has little production, while Argos is just the opposite. Thebes seems pretty weak compared to the other cities, and doesn't really seem to be too great at anything.

So, I think I can say that Athens and Sparta are Hybrids, Argos is a Hammer city, Corinth is a Gold city (which helps research, right?) and Thebes is just a Broken City. I'll try to keep this in mind as I play.

**Turn log**

Turn 177: Astonomy is done, on to Philosophy. Didn't want Music, as it is a dead end I can probably trade for. The war between Charlemagne and Isabella has ended.

Turn 178: Rangar (still at war with Spain) demands I cancel the deals I have with her. While I don't sweat Ragnar much, his buddy Charlemagne is one I want to keep on my side and I know he doesn't like Isabella. I agree and cancel the deals.

Turn 179: Sparta finishes its Odeon. I had decided Sparta was a Hybrid city and it has good science output. Since Observatory just became available, I'll make one here.

Turn 180: Philosophy is done, and with it comes a choice. Do I give up Organized Religion for Pacifism? My goal is the spaceship victory, and it seems that Pac will be more expensive thus cutting down on my science output. On the other hand, Great People are great for getting techs and finishing wonders quickly. Hard to say, for now though I think I am going to stick with OR. Paper comes next to continue with the science theme.

Turn 181: Great Spy is born in Athens. I have him join the city, Athens is my top Esp producer.

Turn 183: Paper is done, on to Education. Akosa calls and wants to trade me Theology for 30g and Compas. I agree, and now another Civics choice. Theocracy, considering my defensive non-military posture and the fact that all my neighbors love me, doesn't seem worth it. Isabella loses a city to the Vikings.

Turn 185: Pacal wants to trade maps. There's nothing he can offer me I haven't already seen, but I see no harm in doing the trade.

Turn 186: I decide to build the University of Sankore in Athens. It boosts science production from my Conf buildings, of which I have many.

Turn 189: Akosa trades his fish for my incense. Education is done, I pick Gunpowder so as not to become to soft on defense.

Turn 192: Gunpowder is done, I pick Liberalism hoping for the free Tech. I'm watching Akosa's score get closer and closer to mine. That's all tech I'm sure. Zara calls, we trade maps and he gives me Music for Guilds. Inspired, I call Charlie and offer him Guilds. He gives me 80g for it and moves from Annoyed to Cautious. Offering one of my 3 Dyes to Rangar gets me 5 gold per turn. Wheeling and dealing.

Turn 194: Somone made the Apostalic Palace and now it's time for a vote. Look at that: the Candidates are Zara and me! I vote for me.

Turn 195: I ran a good campaign and everyone votes for me except Zara. I guess I didn't get enough votes though.

Turn 196: I am first to Liberalism. For a free tech I pick Printing Press for the money boost. I hope all this extra money is turning into Science. I'll check at session's end. The civic Free Religion seems better than Org Religion. Science boost and more happiness. I pick Chemistry next, mostly so I can see if I will have oil.

Turn 198: The revolution is over and WOW I'm making 52 gold a turn! Hard to tell if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

Turn 200: A lot going on, including a big mistake. By switching to Free Religion I think I just rendered the (just completed) Univ of Sankore useless. Oops. In other news, Charlemagne asks for open borders, which I grant. Ragnar wants me on his side in the war with Isabella. 'Pick a side' everyone said - so I do. It's war with Spain - even if only in a technical sense. I have no intention of sending any units over there.

So - I wanted to look at my science/economy when all this was done. I have 1152g in the bank, I'm making 50 gpt and my science is at 80% (382 science pt). If I up that to 90%, it's 426 per turn and I'm still making money (+16 gpt). This is something I will have to go back and read other comments on and then check back in.

At the very least, I still seem to be winning. Since namliaM usually points this out I wanted to see where I was tech-wise compared to my closest rivals.

Akosa: I am up 5 techs. He has 1 (Banking) I do not have
Zara: I am up 4 techs. He also has Banking
Charlemagne: I am up 7 techs

So it seems that Zara and Akosa are the two I need to stay ahead of.

I will watch this thread for comments and give more thought to the money/science situation.

Thanks all!!

 

[namliaM]

Trying to understand the ratio between the science slider and science output, I reduce the slider to 80%. This puts me a +11 gpt.

This was not the point, lowering your slider does not speed up research unless you increase your empire size... in this case.... to coin a fraze.... *This means war*

Ok, the first thing I notice is that my Capitol is the best at Science and Production. Sparta seems similarly well rounded. Other things that jump out are that Corinth is a gold factory, but has little production, while Argos is just the opposite. Thebes seems pretty weak compared to the other cities, and doesn't really seem to be too great at anything.

So, I think I can say that Athens and Sparta are Hybrids, Argos is a Hammer city, Corinth is a Gold city (which helps research, right?) and Thebes is just a Broken City. I'll try to keep this in mind as I play.

Capitols (as in Athens in your case) with Burocracy (+50% hammers and +50% Commerce are generaly hybrid cities.
Corinth is a research city as is Sparta (basicaly) with a nice production kicker... (hybrid... probably)

Turn 179: Sparta finishes its Odeon. I had decided Sparta was a Hybrid city and it has good science output. Since Observatory just became available, I'll make one here.

Yep !

Turn 181: Great Spy is born in Athens. I have him join the city, Athens is my top Esp producer.

*Bleg* another Spy? Atleast you didnt build Scotland yard

Akosa calls and wants to trade me Theology for 30g and Compas.

Did you check who else (on this continent) would give you something usefull for Compass? Or did you allow the AI to trade among themselves?

Turn 185: Pacal wants to trade maps. There's nothing he can offer me I haven't already seen, but I see no harm in doing the trade.

Wrong! IMHO, why give him the benifit of your maps, when you learn nothing new?

Turn 186: I decide to build the University of Sankore in Athens. It boosts science production from my Conf buildings, of which I have many.

A nice/decent wonder... OK-ish...

Turn 189: Akosa trades his fish for my incense. Education is done, I pick Gunpowder so as not to become to soft on defense.
Turn 192: Gunpowder is done, I pick Liberalism hoping for the free Tech.

You gotta be kidding? You are leading by a mile and a half! No one (even at the end of your save) even has Education! Some have not yet paper... HOPING?
If you had checked the tech screen you could have realized this and delayed getting Liberalism untill a little later...
Also Liberalism and the wonder you just build (U of Sankore) dont really mix. The strength of Liberalism lies in "Free religion" which means no state religion, which means you build UoS for nothing... You -semi- wizely addopted FR so... hammers for UoS could have been better spend on Observatory/University/units.... than on this wonder...

I'm watching Akosa's score get closer and closer to mine. That's all tech I'm sure.

NEGATIVE
Asoka has 9 cities in total you have only 7. This is the root of your "problem"

Zara calls, we trade maps and he gives me Music for Guilds. Inspired, I call Charlie and offer him Guilds. He gives me 80g for it and moves from Annoyed to Cautious. Offering one of my 3 Dyes to Rangar gets me 5 gold per turn. Wheeling and dealing.

Better... better...

Turn 196: I am first to Liberalism. For a free tech I pick Printing Press for the money boost.

This is what I meant earlier. If you had picked more wisely or maybe even delayed LIberalism ... Now you pick a 1800 beaker tech while you could easily have picked Sci Meth, which is 2800. More so I think you could have researched for example Chemistry first and picked Steel which is a 3200 beaker tech.

I pick Chemistry next, mostly so I can see if I will have oil.

Uhm... chemistry for oil? You mean Sci Meth... Wrong choice. You founded Taoism get 1 or 2 Monastaries up and running before getting Sci Meth so you can spread Taoism around for the

Turn 200: A lot going on, including a big mistake. By switching to Free Religion I think I just rendered the (just completed) Univ of Sankore useless.

Yep! Better late than never

'Pick a side' everyone said - so I do. It's war with Spain - even if only in a technical sense.

Just look at this as free +1 relations for helping him in wartime

I have 1152g in the bank,

Which is way way way to much. Upgrade some units or do something usefull with it... like running rediculously 100% science.

Akosa: I am up 5 techs. He has 1 (Banking) I do not have
Zara: I am up 4 techs. He also has Banking
Charlemagne: I am up 7 techs

Sorry but details!
Asoka, you are up 6 techs not 4. Furthermore this is what the screen is telling you, Beyond those techs you cannot see that you have Astronomy and Liberalism ... becuase he doesnt have Optics and Education. So that makes 8 techs.

Zara, 5 not 4 plus the same 2 Astronomy and Lib.
Charlie yes 7, but... missing also: Paper => Astronomy => Liberalism
PLUS missing Compass => Optics => Astronomy, makes 13!
The other continent (as to be expected at lower levels) is way behind, mostly because you have mostly traded techs/gold/resources with your home continent.

Objective:
Find one or more techs that are known to the most advanced civ on the other continent and sell it to the 2. Picking yourself up some nice cash and diplo points.

Some comments,
WHY in heavens name are you building The National Epic in your production city (argos), WHEN are you going to be running specialists there?
Again argos if this is your hammer/production city, why is it having Cottages and working them? Why not farm it and HAMMER down everything (uhm that means build barracks/stables => Units) IF it gets any wonder it should be:
- Heroic epic
- Maybe something big World wonder MAYBE
but no way National epic??

This is specialisation, "donating" or dedicating this city to UNITS only releaves your lower production cities from:
- Building a barracks at all
- Any units ever
and they -beeing research cities or maybe hybrids- can focus more on economy buildings.

Worker actions, Take a look at Sparta... You are building a cottage there on a forrest... while you have open land still ready to improve.

I think you are still underworkered a little (you should have build a worker a while ago and revolted back to Slavery to whip some of those cities sometimes)

Again it is time to investigate your EPs... I think... The other continent now have more EPs allocated than this one... Unless you have a specific reason for that.

From here on you will be coasting to a space win, I really cannot see you losing from here on in... Eventho you made many a mistake, which I hope I helped you prevent from making again... you will win this game... Congrats...

Now its time to move on to Noble

 

[shmoolie]

No you have NOT, I am sorry to say...
- Athens
Has 1 farm it doesnt need and is lacking 3 cottages
- Sparta
No plantation on the banana (1 fpt you are missing!), yet you are building a plantation on a banana you are never going to be able to work... Lost worker turns right there!
Furthermore it is stagnated, having the scientist and has many a unimproved tile
- Corinth
Working 4 coastal tiles and 2 scientists, where it could/should be working 5 grassland cottages, which currently do not exist!
- Thebes
WOW Thebes... it is working a JUNGLE HILL Tile for 1 hammer per turn.... *ouch* talk about waste... More over, the plains and Plains forest ...
While there are 4! riverside grasslands waiting to be cottaged....

Namlia,

Can you explain in greater details how to determine which tiles need which improvements and when is the best time to start improving? This is an area in my game that is sorely lacking. Screen shots would be helpful.

Thanks.

 

[davhey04]

**Actions at start based on previous feedback**

Well, first off namliaM gave me a mission:

Objective:
Find one or more techs that are known to the most advanced civ on the other continent and sell it to the 2. Picking yourself up some nice cash and diplo points.

His take on what techs the other civs had was different than mine too. I need to figure out why I was wrong. GASP! I never saw those tabs at the bottom of the Foreign Advisor before. I click on Tech and there is everything I need to know. Wow - talk about unobservant.

Ok - so Charlemagne and Ragnar look about equal in tech, and Charlie and Isabella want Drama which Ragnar already has. The HRE gives me thier map (which is data I didn't have) and 20 gold. Isabella will not speak to me as we are at war. So, objective half accomplished.

Why was I making National Epic in Argos - a city I woulnd't want to do specialists in? I thought the effect was for all cities.
Why do I have a worker building a cottage on a forest when there is still open land to improve? I thought I got a two-for-one ...a cottage and hammers from the chopped forest. Does it not work that way?

namliaM, you also asked if Argos was my production city - where are all the farms? Wouldn't I want mines in my production city? That's hills only, so open land should be farms to make the city bigger faster instead of cottages?

Straightened out my EPs.

**Turn log**

Turn 201: Wealthiest civs in the world. Guess who?

Turn 203: Hmm, first in score but fourth in power. I better keep an eye on that.

Turn 204: Scientific method is done. Banking - heh like I need Banking! Dead end I'm pretty sure I can trade for. Physics to get the free GP. There's oil near Athens - good to know. Ragnar and Isabella declare peace. Optics and my map gets me Banking from Zara. It's hard to tell what the impact of Mercantilism would have on me, but I don't like the idea of losing my foreign trade routes.

Turn 207 - Pacal becomes a vassal of Asoka! This pushes Asoka's score past mine. For the first time in more than a thousand years - I don't have the point lead. A lot of his score must come from population, he has 26% of the world's population.

Turn 210 - Akosa cancels our long-standing clams for incense deal. He's still pleased with me, but he's still leading. Over on the other continent the war between Spain and the HRE is back on.

Turn 211 - A great scientist is born in Athens. Building the Academy takes that city's science production from 177 to 225.

Turn 213 - Physics is done, and there is uranium near Argos and Knossos. That's good news for my space victory goal. This results in another great scientist in Athens. Athens and Sparta are my two big science producers and they both have Academies already. He joins Athens as a super-specialist.

Turn 215 - Chemistry is done. I pick Economics, again for the free GP.

Turn 216 - Construction of Oxford University begins in Athens.

Turn 217 - Madrid (Spain) falls to the HRE.

Turn 218 - Economics is done. By adapting Free Market civic I am running at 100% research and making 7 gpt. Trying decide between Steel and getting on the path to Democracy. I decide on Nationhood (on the Demo path) since the civcs unlocked on that path seem so research friendly. I use my great merchant to get closer to Replaceable Parts.

Turn 220: Isabella becomes a vassal of Charlemagne.

Turn 225: Constitution is done, and I adopt Representation. Pacal renounces Akosa and I'm back on top of the score! Ha! Athens completes Oxford and now produces almost 400 science.

***

Well, I am glad to see that namliaM thinks I will get the space victory - but I have come this far and want to finish in the 25 turn format I have been posting. I love and learn from all the feedback.

 

[namliaM]

Why was I making National Epic in Argos - a city I woulnd't want to do specialists in? I thought the effect was for all cities.

Nope only that one city, unfortunatly... it says so in the CivPedia

Why do I have a worker building a cottage on a forest when there is still open land to improve? I thought I got a two-for-one ...a cottage and hammers from the chopped forest. Does it not work that way?

Yes it works that way... but... you need the commerce more than the hammers I think... so... Why... Well atleast you have a reason... instead of "just because" what you used to have

namliaM, you also asked if Argos was my production city - where are all the farms? Wouldn't I want mines in my production city? That's hills only, so open land should be farms to make the city bigger faster instead of cottages?

The point of a production city is to focus on production. A hill requires food... because a grass land hill only gives 1 food and any other hill NONE.
So for every grass hill you work on you need one grassland farm to feed the citizen working it + the farm. For every plains hill you need 2 farms, untill biology that is... and up to your happy/health caps.

Banking - heh like I need Banking! Dead end I'm pretty sure I can trade for. Physics to get the free GP. There's oil near Athens - good to know. Ragnar and Isabella declare peace. Optics and my map gets me Banking from Zara.

Bad call, trading to the AI techleader... on higher levels, on Warlord, trade your hard out!

It's hard to tell what the impact of Mercantilism would have on me, but I don't like the idea of losing my foreign trade routes.

I wouldnt addopt Merc in this game if I were you Just look at the trade routes you are getting

Turn 207 - Pacal becomes a vassal of Asoka! This pushes Asoka's score past mine. For the first time in more than a thousand years - I don't have the point lead. A lot of his score must come from population, he has 26% of the world's population. Even in Argos, one of your least cities...
3 routes, 3 GPT each. Now replace them by only national routes (3 GPT Total instead of each meaning 6GPT (beakers) lost ) and add one scientist = +3 Beakers... you are down 3 beakers in this one bad town. Not counting library and other beaker increasing stuff...

Turn 216 - Construction of Oxford University begins in Athens.

Good choice I do think... But did you take everything into account?

I use my great merchant to get closer to Replaceable Parts.

Burning any GP other than a Great Scientist should be done with great care... This one was better joined to a city or a trade mission on the other continent for more $$$

Well, I am glad to see that namliaM thinks I will get the space victory - but I have come this far and want to finish in the 25 turn format I have been posting. I love and learn from all the feedback.

I think nothing, you basicaly cannot lose from here on out...

Some more nitpickings from the Mailman
Your capitol has OU... it is producing still +3 food with supporting 2 scientists, WHY in heavens name does it have 2 more farms?? (which you are not working) and STILL a forrest? I think you have higher priorities than running scientists in your OU capitol... Or??
While on the subject of your capitol, WHY build a grocer there? Much better to build units or something else (not a bank either) You are running at 0% gold... adding 25% to 0 = 0.... you gain nothing while spending 150 hammers

A bank in Corrinth... maybe (due to the 25 gold of the shrine) but a bank in Sparta? Waste of hammers to gain 2.5 gold of the priest. Talking about the priest... I wonder what you are going to do with the Great Priest in Sparta...

Thebes... wow it has all the farms Argos should have... At +7 food while working 7 farms... *uhm* what is wrong with Grassland cottages? Why are you going farmcrazy?

Why doesnt Knossos have a Forge yet?? It is producing 11 hammers currently and would benifit nicely from a forge. Atleast it has most science buildings ATM.

Good job tho, on winning this game, now bring it home

 

[BrantleyL1]

What you need to do is get a library into that city and "force" 2 scientists to work. They each generate 3 Scientist points a turn for a total of 6, you need a 100 points to generate the Great Scientist, so keep the 2 scientists for 100/6 turns => One great scientist.

This looks like one of those nuance things that I've not quite got yet. And a management issue. [I think I need to figure out some of these management issues!]

So, if I build a library, I can get two scientists. They don't magically appear, I need to go into the city screen and convert (force, using your term) a couple of citizens to scientists. This will possibly cause stagnation - depending on food production. I may need to adjust which tiles I work - work farms - maybe - rather than cotages and/mines....

Since it's early, I need 100 Great Person Points to get one, and since I'm getting them from scientists, odds are VERY likely that I'll get a Great Scientist - who I can use to pop a nice tech...

Right??

Q2: Once I get the Great Scientist, what do I do with the Scientists?

 

[namliaM]

Namlia,

Can you explain in greater details how to determine which tiles need which improvements and when is the best time to start improving? This is an area in my game that is sorely lacking. Screen shots would be helpful.

Thanks.

The best time to start improving is as soon as possible, if possible even before the city is founded...

WHEN? should you improve, you should aim that your cities never work a single unimproved tile. Unless you know exactly why.... (i.e. you want national park in this city and you are saving the forress)

What improvements? That totaly depends on the city.
Is it production => Mines/farmes/Workshops/Lumbermills (save the forrests!)
Is it Science => Cottages everwhere the Eye can see.

The war academy is a must read. For your question about what to improve I suggest you focus on the 3 articles in the War Academy about city specialisation.

 

[namliaM]

This looks like one of those nuance things that I've not quite got yet. And a management issue. [I think I need to figure out some of these management issues!]

So, if I build a library, I can get two scientists. They don't magically appear, I need to go into the city screen and convert (force, using your term) a couple of citizens to scientists. This will possibly cause stagnation - depending on food production. I may need to adjust which tiles I work - work farms - maybe - rather than cotages and/mines....

Since it's early, I need 100 Great Person Points to get one, and since I'm getting them from scientists, odds are VERY likely that I'll get a Great Scientist - who I can use to pop a nice tech...

Right??

Mostly early in the game you can use GS (unless you have a very specific goal in mind) for building an Acadamy in your capitol.
Q2: Once I get the Great Scientist, what do I do with the Scientists?

More or less correct, if you force/"convert to..." the scientists and only run scientists you are guaranteed to get a Great scientist not likely to get... gut guarantee baby !

The city where you are running the scientists will need to be size 4 and have a library. Moreso it will need one 4 or more food tile (there are many of these tiles around). Your one citizen can work the 4+ food tiles, now you get 2 citizen to be a scientist. Your cc has +2 food for 1 scientist and the 4+ food tile has another +2 for the second scientist.
If you have an exact 4 food tile (i.e. non irrigated but farmed Rice), this means there is no access food and the city is indeed stagnate. If you have a 5 or 6 food (Pastured pig) you still have +2 food, so growing will be slowed considerably.

The slower growing of this city should be for (early first GS) 100/6 = 16.666 (17) turns. You get your scientist and the Academy, start back growing again.
your second will take twice as long, 200/6 = 33.3333 (34 turns) so plan ahead.

 

[davhey04]

**Actions at start based on previous feedback**

namliaM, coments on your comments:

"Your capitol has OU... it is producing still +3 food with supporting 2 scientists, WHY in heavens name does it have 2 more farms?? (which you are not working) and STILL a forrest? I think you have higher priorities than running scientists in your OU capitol... Or??
While on the subject of your capitol, WHY build a grocer there? Much better to build units or something else (not a bank either) You are running at 0% gold... adding 25% to 0 = 0.... you gain nothing while spending 150 hammers"

Since I have OU, why are the two scientists a bad idea? Doesn't OU double research (+100%) so the more research in the OU city the better right? The grocer point I understand.

"A bank in Corrinth... maybe (due to the 25 gold of the shrine) but a bank in Sparta? Waste of hammers to gain 2.5 gold of the priest. Talking about the priest... I wonder what you are going to do with the Great Priest in Sparta..."

Whoops I forgot about him. I think I should send him to Knossos to build the religious wonder, yes? And what is your opinion on golden ages?

"Thebes... wow it has all the farms Argos should have... At +7 food while working 7 farms... *uhm* what is wrong with Grassland cottages? Why are you going farmcrazy?"

Well you kept pinging me on having unimproved tiles I guess I over-farmed.

**Turn log**

Turn 226: The great prophet heads to Knossos to build the religious wonder.

Turn 227: The grocer is done in Athens. Ok, so I didn't need him. Considering Athens gets 12 gpt from it's three foreign trade routes, Customs House seems like a good idea.

Turn 229: Democracy is done, quick 1 turn to Corporations and it's +1 trade routes per city.

Turn 230: Corp is done, another quick 1 turn to Repl Parts

Turn 231: The customs house in Athens bumps its trade-based gpt to 20. Not many build options here, so I'll pick staute of liberty. Repl parts is done, 3 turns to Steel for the ironworks. Trying to focus on spaceship related goals now (in this case, ways to make the parts faster). Seeing no downside, I enable Emancipation.

Turn 232: Akosa is within 75 points of my score. I remind myself my goal is the space victory but it still makes me nervous. Akosa, Zara and the HRE all are far ahead of me in power - that's more concerning. Sparta and Argos will continue cranking out Musketmen for the time being.

Turn 234: A great scientist in Corinth, my #3 science city. Academy is my choice.

Turn 235: Ok Steel is done and I should have done steam power first so I would know where coal was for the iron works. Live and learn. Steam Power is next.

Turn 237: A bank in Thebes even though it doesn't need it - so I can qualify for Wall Street.

Turn 238: Zara wants me to convert to Theocracy. Sorry pal - we like things the way they are. He's still friendly to me after. Steam Power is done, I pick Railroad for the rails and for the machine guns.

Turn 241: Isabella wants me to cancel my deals with Ragnar. I remember which side I'm on and say no.

Turn 242: Steam Power is done, on to Combustion (so I can build a well for my Oil). Major chopping happening in Athens to help the SoL get done.

Turn 244: Apostolic Palace vote time, and I'm not a candidate anymore. Zara or Pacal? I abstain.

Turn 245: Charlemagne wants to trade me gold for rice. Don't need the gold, but it's good for relations.

Turn 247: Combustion is done, on to Biology and then Electricity.

So, I'm deploying the machine guns around but I am still worried about my poor showing on the power graph. My workers are deforesting and building a railroad to connect the cities - though I'm not sure that does a lot for me. Athens is 2 turns away from becoming Refined, whatever that is

Thanks!

 

[namliaM]

Since I have OU, why are the two scientists a bad idea? Doesn't OU double research (+100%) so the more research in the OU city the better right? The grocer point I understand.

Yep more beakers = better, problem is 2 scientists is not more research
You could be working 2 towns, netting 5 or 6 commerce each => 5 or 6 Beakers each + the scientists after that, because the cottages are grass ones who feed themselves ...

Whoops I forgot about him. I think I should send him to Knossos to build the religious wonder, yes? And what is your opinion on golden ages?

The religious wonder would get you wat? Settling the Priest gets you what and where? Golden age(s) get you what and why? quantify the answers and find out what you can best do.

Well you kept pinging me on having unimproved tiles I guess I over-farmed.

Dont just improve for the sake of improving THINK about why and what for you are doing this or that improvement in this city... WHY the farm or why a cottage and why not a Windmill or a Workshop.

The great prophet heads to Knossos to build the religious wonder.

Ok that should net you 2 maybe 3 gpt (without checking the save). Settling the Priest would net you 5 gpt + 3 beakers + 1 hammer.... (not counting library/grocer/market/bank/wallstreet/etc) guess what I would have done ...

Considering Athens gets 12 gpt from it's three foreign trade routes, Customs House seems like a good idea.

There you go

Democracy is done, quick 1 turn to Corporations and it's +1 trade routes per city.

+1 trade route per city... do you think that would have been very usefull too, about 100 turns ago? Corp = good tech! unless you have the great lighthouse.

Turn 231: The customs house in Athens bumps its trade-based gpt to 20. Not many build options here, so I'll pick staute of liberty.

Builder to the end reminds me of me allright

Repl parts is done, 3 turns to Steel for the ironworks. Trying to focus on spaceship related goals now (in this case, ways to make the parts faster). Seeing no downside, I enable Emancipation.

Steel = Cannons moreso than Ironworks but I can remember in the building mind... Ironworks too.... Emancipation is great, giving to your AI friends

Turn 232: Akosa is within 75 points of my score. I remind myself my goal is the space victory but it still makes me nervous. Akosa, Zara and the HRE all are far ahead of me in power - that's more concerning. Sparta and Argos will continue cranking out Musketmen for the time being.

You keep screaming about power, but you are ignoring important military techs like Military Tradition, Riffling and military science

Turn 234: A great scientist in Corinth, my #3 science city. Academy is my choice.

Great choice the Academy nets you 25 beakers/turn. Settling the scientist in Athens makes 9 + 235% which is just 21.15 Just also that it adds a Hammer which is impossible to compare to Beakers.

Turn 235: Ok Steel is done and I should have done steam power first so I would know where coal was for the iron works. Live and learn. Steam Power is next.

Now this is a concern I dont have.
You have to build the Damn thing as well, which is going to take you way past researching Steampower.

A bank in Thebes even though it doesn't need it - so I can qualify for Wall Street.

Good, you realize it doesnt need it
Wall Street tho is a good enough reason on its own.

Turn 241: Isabella wants me to cancel my deals with Ragnar. I remember which side I'm on and say no.

Major chopping happening in Athens to help the SoL get done.

Details time (again), You are building SoL and... what helps building speed of SoL? I will help you in saying YOU dont have it, but a friend will GIVE it to you for FREE! If you had realized this some turns ago, SoL would allready have been done!

Turn 247: Combustion is done, on to Biology and then Electricity.

Still ignoring the POWER you complain so much about.

My workers are deforesting and building a railroad to connect the cities - though I'm not sure that does a lot for me. Athens is 2 turns away from becoming Refined, whatever that is

Railroading helps movement (road = 1/3 movement, rails = 1/10 movement)
Also a Rail on a mine adds 1 to the mine

 

[King Jason]

Railroading helps movement (road = 1/3 movement, rails = 1/10 movement)
Also a Rail on a mine adds 1 to the mine

Railroads also add +1 to Lumbermills as well.

 

[namliaM]

wow no update in over 2 weeks. I hope you finished the game tho...

 

[quill18]

I just discovered this thread today. Really entertaining read, and quite informative too! I'd love to see more like this. (Maybe I'll post something tonight...)

I usually play at Prince/Monarch, but I still picked up some new things to think about. I think everyone (even Deity players!) have some holes in their game that can only be filled by talking with other players.

My weaknesses are specialists, which I mostly ignore (though I love Super Specialists more than just about anything a GP can do), and also late-game terrain improvements.

I usually manage my workers for a while, but after several cities I get bored and just automate them. By clicked the options "Automated Worked leave Old Improvements" and "Automated Workers Don't Chop Forests", they aren't brain damaged -- especially if you've built the proper base of farms/cottages. The problem is that I rarely inspect my terrain in the late-game, where farms/cottages might need to be swapped, or Windmills/Watermills should replace older infrastructure.

There's also TONS I need to learn about tech brokering. Also, I almost never try to raise money through trading. For example, I'll go out and find resource-for-resource trades, but I ignore resource-for-gpt trades.

There are pretty big holes in my game, I guess. Luckily, I tend to start out very well in the early game, expanding aggressively (but properly) and having a couple very profitable early wars. My starts give me enough of a boost to compensate for my weak mid-to-late-game.

(Oh, deciding to finally learn about espionage and discovering "Incite Revolt" is going to make my next warmongering game VERY different. That is WAY more effective than having to carry a super-stack of siege weapons. Now I'll only need a few to soften defenders or deal with walls.)

 

[Gooblah]

I opened up an earlier save, and I was slightly shocked...

First of all, you have a massive tech lead, but your infrastructure is almost non-existent. I went to Corinth (your river city), built Watermills and Workshops everywhere. Traded some tech (inexpensive, got gold as well) for Banking from Zara, then started on Replaceable Parts. This gave the Watermills a food boost. I started converting your earlier production cities (Mines and resources) into late-game powerhouses (Workshops, Watermills). Rifling and Chemistry are next. I also started a military buildup against Pacal II. He's weak (frontier city had a Chariot, Longbowmen, and a Mace), has somewhat good land, and taking him can cement your lead. After military techs, I'm heading for Steel/Railroad/Combustion. Machine Guns can defend while Rifles, Cavalry, and Grenadiers duke it out with Longbows and stuff. Also, who has the Confucian holy city? You, Asoka, Zara, or Pacal II? I suggest you capture that city.

 

[Tor Inge]

This is the best thread I've ever read. I get much from reading the other threads, like ABigCivFan's open games. But they are usually of a much higher level, and not as detailed as this. Here I get all the whys and becauses.

Thanks to davhey06 for writing a such detailed report from your game and namliaM for being the very patient tutor! In Yoda's famous words: "Allways two there are. A master, and an apprentice."

I'm struggling to win on Warlord too, usually ending up hitting enter for the remainder of the game.

Davey, one thing I found very useful early on was to play Custom Games [main menu > single player > custom game] where I'd pick a leader, turn off various things, reduce number of opponents etc

I did this in my last game. Reducing the numbers on a normal map to 3 ai's and myself. Gives you a bit more space to get some cities, before you have to watch the borders and perhaps declare a few wars.

Another key thing is to choose the opponents. Maybe choose the more peaceful ones if you're learning the ropes of empire management.

So eg you want to focus on learning the economy and research aspects of the game--turn off barbarians, war and tech trading. Play 50-200 turns and then start again with same/other variation.

I think the next major step for me, is to learn when to resign. I start out well, then make a mistake and don't see it before it's too late. I think catching up is the most difficult part of this game. The time is better used trying again until I do well in every game where I do no major mistakes.

I just played a game like this, and started out well. I had planned attacking an opponent making him my vassal. Then he took the last city spot which I had planned to take, and I declared war after positioning my forces. Now... the first city fell fast, and I razed another one and went for the third... Which was my major mistake. I should have traded peace treaty after the second city. Why? Because:

1. I had no catapults, didn't even have the tech, and the city was at 40% defence.
2. I didn't have the tech for vassals so I felt I couldn't offer peace now.
3. While I was researching for both, he got bowmen. Going from low odds to impossible odds. And I got more and more units parked outside his city leading to parking fines dragged the research down.
4. I didn't quit the war when everybody, even my nemesis, went past me in all fields.
5. Finally I gave in and tried a inferior attack on his city believing in sheer numbers. (I was russian after all). I got one unit from him and he got 90% of mine, even after using the ones with at least 50% chance first.

I was now behind everybody, and he had built cities in the empty spots (why didn't I bring a settler..?!) And my cities fell to the cultural pressure from the other peaceful civs. And still I didn't resign. I kept on until UN, where I vote for the biggest civ in the second meeting just to end the misery. I could have quit at least a couple of hours earlier, without much difference in the end score. So now I have one win (cultural) and 4 losses on BTS.

I think we newbies need some goals to make it through the game. As been given out in this thread. I play okish when I go for a cultural win from the start, because I know what to do, and what to look for. But I struggle adapting to the terrain and opponents, if I start a random game.

So I guess it's back to "Wax on, wax off."

Again thanks for making this thread!

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

I think this thread is a highlight of how great this community is. Instead of the typical "LOL U SUCK MUH EPEEN IS BIGGAR THAN URS" there are people making a concerted effort to help someone. This website continues to give me faith in the internet

Alright, enough of my romantic views of CFC!

 

[Bleys]

I think we newbies need some goals to make it through the game. As been given out in this thread. I play okish when I go for a cultural win from the start, because I know what to do, and what to look for. But I struggle adapting to the terrain and opponents, if I start a random game.

So I guess it's back to "Wax on, wax off."

I agree. I have been purposely trying to "deviate" from my normal plans (found religions, build lots of cities), and as a result, I have become quite a strong rusher, heh. Nothing like REXing by letting your opponents make cities and found religions for you! Last 2 games in a row I got a double-holy city off Izzy, LOL.

 

[ranger101]

I checked your gamesave and my comments are as follows:

1. You should be in Bureaucracy, over Despotism.

2. You have had astronomy for some time but have not built any caravels.
You should do so to explore thus world, thus opening up trade with non-continental civs. Also, if you circle the world, you get +1 ship movement.
(you can send 2 caravels in opposite directions and have them meet up.

Often, people pick up education and then liberalism, instead of Astronomy. 1st player to reach liberalism gets a free tech, which can be used to pick up Astronomy (Edu +Lib costs less than Astronomy), plus you get to build universities.

Which brings me to my next point ...

3. You have no religious civic, but then again you have no religion (1 city christian, 1 moslem, etc.). Free religion from Liberalism would have been a good choice. Religions can be tricky in this game, if you don't found one. If you do find yourself in possession of a holy city, building a shrine with a great prophet bosts, your commerce, and thus allows you to raise your research rate or build a bigger army.

4. You have built no forges, plus you cannot benefit from organized religion, you lose out on +25% production overall, +50% production of buildings (latter additional 25% from organized religion). People often speak about specializing cities, but forges are generally built in most cities, since even poor production cities need to build buildings and at some point late game slavery ends, thus no "rush building" of building by using slavery. Forges are also needed for factories and can help out with a +2 production specialist (though a 1 food 2 prod. plains forest is usually better).

5. Build a fishing boat for Nibru.

6. Don't run specialists in Ur, since you have no food resource. Great Artists are generally not as highly regarded as the other ones.

7. Lagash is your academic and financial center. Best of build a forge, then observatory and the financial buildings there. For many players, the financial and research cities are different, since their financial city is their holy city.
I would cottage the jungle tile, ans at some point later at least 1 of the 2 tiles by the rivers (since rivers get +1 commerce), and stick a mine on the windmill (you can always convert it back at some point). If you build a forge, you can use a +2 production specialist, which helps out the the weak point of this city.

5. You are utilising some coastal squares without lighthouses (Nibru, Bad Tibira).

7. No need to build a temple in Ur. Your citizens have personally told me that they worship the ground that you walk on. "Dave is the Man", they reverently shout to all who will listen.

A forge, then other buildings would be a good choice.

8. Disband the warriors. It's 1812 and you still have largely archers. (Military can eat up a lost of gold, though at your level it only costs 9.)

9. You haven't gone to war, as I see you can't build a heroic epic (no level 3 unit). AI tends to box one in, so you have to go to war at some point. At higher levels, one pretty much has to go to war at some point, as the AI boxes on in, and tends to attack as well.

10. I would trade Astronomy to Munsa Mansa for Education and Nationalism, at least after I sent my caravels on their way (want to grab that +1 movement bonus for myself).

11. You have no copper or iron. That could have made things difficult to attack or fight a defensive war in the early game. You do however have horses. If you wanted to go to war, building Knights, then Curusissiers was/is the way to go. If you want to go to war now, I would research military tradition after you do #10 above, or you can wait a bit and build the gunpowder units.

12. You have no Iron, so you can't build Age of Sail naval vessels (or ironclads) aside from galleons or ironclads. Portugal has 2 iron, but the appear to have traded it with somebody else. Perhaps exploration will reveal a potential trading partner?

13. You have all those serfs. Irrigate the plains tile between Kish and Uruk so you can then irrigate the one left of it, so then your wheat resource is irrigated. This is called "chain irrigation), and is useful to farm non-irrigateable tiles.

14. Your have great artists as specialists. Most players prefer the others, as engineers can rush build wonders and found the mining corporation, merchants can be sent offshore to pick up a lot of gold or can found the sushi corporation, scientists build academies (though you did well to build one in your science city).

I generally prefer to build over fight. At higher levels, one often doesn't have the choice, as you get attacked anyway, and AI expands, quickly and usually in your direction. Also, being stuck in the middle between 2 expanding empires can be dangerous!

In this game, your choices would have been (a) build mostly longbowman and play defense with a handful of mounted units to prevent pillagers or (b) add some more mounted and siege units and take Nanjing for the copper.

(Edit: I probably should have read the posts beyond the 1st few, but I had fun writing it up anyway and hopefully did not go over matters already discussed.)