Need Help: Warfare in Late Classical/Medieval Period

[jcdrake]

I am pretty new to the game, played several peaceful matches on Settler/Chieftain, have been moving up to Warlord and doing okay. I had a very strange and difficult match last night that I would like some advice on.

I was the Malinese on a Small Continents map. I was on a continent with only HRE. The AI was very aggressive with their city expansion early, and we were both cramped. By the AD years it was clear I would have to go to war to have enough room to develop.

Time passes, research happens, I change civs and go to war. I'm pumping out tons of Macemen, Knights and Cats and sending them into Charlemagne's lands. On the open field I am massacring his armies, 6 to 1 kill ratio. I reach the first city, bombard it down to nothing (cats were mixed, accuracy I and collateral damage upgrade). However, none of my units had even a slight chance against his longbowmen.

Knights odds were about 3.4%, macemen were less than 1%, axeman with archery upgrades could be up to 10% with City Raider I, but try as I might I couldn't take any of his cities. I pillaged the entire countryside, every single improvement, all roads, everything and he couldn't defeat me, but I would throw an entire stack of units against a 2-3 fortified longbowmen and couldn't take him out.

Eventually I was able to get him to give me two cities in exchange for peace, then rush ahead to gunpowder and come back with cannons and calvary to root him out, but how in the world can you take cities in the medieval period against longbows? Is it even possible?

Please give me advice, this seems impossible from my experience last night.

[EDIT]: Spelling

 

[Wen123]

Typically you'd want trebs against longbows, but if you have sufficient numbers, especially suicide cats, it's possible. Don't be afraid to suicide a cat or three to weaken the lbs before going in with CR maces. Try using theocracy to get CR2 maces, against weakened lbs they shld have a decent chance.

 

[r_rolo1]

Siege weapons, my friend, siege weapons.... in this case catapults and/or trebuchets. This because they can remove the city defense bonuses ( that + X% that appears in white on top of almost every city and that multiplies the strenght of the defender ) and because they can spash collateral damage to some of the units in the same tile even if they lose a fight. They can't kill in offense, surely, but they can make the defenders weak enough to be takeable with ease.

 

[drlake]

Maces with CR are part of the answer. The other part is Knights with Flanking 2. You'll be losing a couple of Knights just to weaken each LB, but if the cultural defenses are down you should be able to take the city.

 

[jcdrake]

Thanks. It sounds like I need to be a little bit more willing to lose units. I was thinking that I needed to preserve my stack, but it sounds like I should be building lots of Cats and sending them in to soften the front.

(In the game last night I was bombarding the defenses to 0% before any assault)

I will try again tonight. The other problem I had was once at war, my research completely tanked. It was taking so long to research anything, I couldn't have gotten trebs without forgoing my defense. I didn't have enough specialized cities.

 

[Tristan_C]

The odds and efficiency sways hard towards defense in medieval. Particularly fighting the AI, since it buffs longbowmen ludicrously with walls and castles. I guess, if nothing else, this mitigates the issue that everything else about the medieval map is practically begging for endless war.

Experienced leftover catapults from earlier are alright for bombarding and waiting to be upgraded to cannons. Like Wen said, you need to build trebs and replace them... expect to sacrifice trebs capturing a city. Don't use CR regulars until the trebs have their shots. This will allow your CRs to survive.

Defenders can be drawn out if you pillage enough. If you're going around with a huge stack of units, though, supply costs will cancel out the money you pillage, and you'll be screwing up tiles you might be working soon.

 

[gskyes]

My suggestion for medieval war is to get Engineering asap. In my opinion, it is the most crucial tech for the time period if you are going to war.

You get:
1) trebuchets, which are way better than catapults for city capture, especially against protective civs like HRE.
2) pikemen, to defend against knights which otherwise will destroy your stack of trebs and the AI loves to spam mounted units.
3) +1 road movement, for faster reinforcements.
and sometimes 4) notre dame for +2 if you have hammers to spare for building a wonder.

 

[Sportyatuncw06]

Yeah I tend to avoid medievil warfare myself. I do like keeping cities during this era if they're in an ok spot because they have less revolts than in later eras so I avoid pillaging unless the enemy is very well entrenched and I know it will be a very long war or they are more advanced (shouldn't be the case on warlord)

I think the key is early economic development for fast research and better troops on warlord verses larger stacks and suciding mass seige units, is most productive. Getting to cannons asap is most beneficial.

Also I like cat verses trebs cause they are about half the cost. I go for bombard 1 2 and 3 where possible (with theo/vass barracks and a coupe of GG this is possible out of the gate) for 20-30-50% collateral damage. Accuracy is nice but if they have walls you are getting half return on it.

 

[azzaman333]

Siege weapons + more siege weapons + even more siege weapons. Promote them with city raider, throw them against the city, do a crapload of collateral, win.

 

[DampRain]

Hi jcdrake,

Medieval warfare is considered somewhat difficult, due to the power of longbows and their availability so early. Alot of the time, a player may in fact wait till they have rifling or cannons before trying to go to war against a medieval army, but since you specifically ask for the case, I will respond best I can .

After bombardment, a defending long bow on flat land city fortified with 1 promotion to city defense has a ~75% bonus, so about 10.5 defense. Obviously if the longbows have more promotions or is on a hill, things can get messy very quickly. Worse cas reasonable scenario, CG3 on a hill long bow, which is about 15 defense.

If you want to conserve as much hammers as possible, you should ideally have,

Siege to bombard the city defenses (cats/trebs are both usable),
Trebs to lead (When attacking cities, I'm a CR only fan, but thats just me).
If there are very decent odds for cats after the trebs are done (>75%), I may send the cats to get XP (unlikely).
Then CR maces or knights, and the rest if there is something left.

The above only happens when you have considerable army, sometimes when you are needing to squeeze as much out as possible, I'll sacrifice the low level trebs first, then the higher, so the higher level survive to get more promotions.

Sometimes every opposing unit is weaker (but not clean up weak) except the top defender. In this case, using the flanking knights or suiciding a strong attacker to try and get it down helps out. before using siege again Eg. Your siege has damaged all the rest, but still has bad odds on the top, but you can't clean up with units yet as the remaining units are still a considerable threat.

It is highly suggested when making your army you have theocracy, as the extra promotion makes a world of difference. Macemen CR2 have almost 12 attack, which makes them considerably more effective. It seems that you are capable of wiping out stacks in field, so I won't offer anything on that.

You also mention against charlemange, in my experience he likes to build on hills AND is protective. In which case in such a situation you really might be better off leaving him till you have a tech lead, since the presence of a hill or an extra promo can be absolutely devastating.

Hope this helps.

 

[Draco Spirit]

I found a stack like this typically get the job done in medieval warfare

8 macemen (city raider 1 and 2)
1 Crossbow man ( unit strength one and anti melew)
1 Crossbow man (medic)
1 Pikeman (unit strength 1 and 2)
16 trebuchets (city raider 1 and 2)
At least one City defender longbowman/musketman and strength pikeman per city I want to take. More if serous counter attacks expected.
A few knights units if available, mostly used as rapid reinforcements and field fighters
Perhaps a few more defence minded units if trouble is expected.

Basic plan of attack is beeline for his cities, siege the hell out of them and use macemen to get nice safe 80% percent victories. You do admittedly lose alot of siege... but there cheap to replace.

 

[ifinnem]

Try to pick a non protective target if possible...

See these posts for advice on medieval warfare from some experts
Sisiutil
TMIT

 

[budweiser]

A knight does fine against regular longbowmen. Perhaps not if they are protective. CR trebs are the answer. Preferrably CRIII trebs if you can make them. They will slaughter longbows.