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[BTS] Need some help with this position

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by scheines, Sep 20, 2020.

  1. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    You are hemorrhaging gold yup. Maybe too much. GK will peace out for IW though.

    Early WB scout is far more beneficial than sending a lone axeman off into the wild blue yonder. For one it opens foreign trade routes which are missing drastically here.

    These libraries are far too late. 2 pop whip those bad boys and don't just sit there with unhappy cities.

    Krak desperately need a monument and myst might have been something I'd pick up sooner. Fish early would have opened a sailing trade ..possibly for Writing. These AI are not doing all that well here at this stage.

    edit: Yeah..ha..I did not learn that fact until several years after playing.
     
  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Hunting/AH may have been avoided here I think. Maybe getting Myst and then Alpha or at least holding something as a placeholder for a while as you prepare to do battle.

    Shame really that Edirne not settled 1N with a quick monument so it can share corn. I realize idea was to get copper asap but I'm not sure how much that would have change things.

    edit ..same with the whole barracks discussion. I'm not going out of my way at this point for Theo. No way. You may have opened up Theo a loooong time ago with trading who knows.
     
  3. scheines

    scheines Warlord

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    Noted. Seems like I’m thinking too grand with theo - same as with vassalage. Maybe at emperor or something you can afford to line the stars up, but here it just seems to cost too much time.

    I agree that scouting via WB > an axeman, but i don’t get fishing until making peace with GK (I assumed his “what will it take to make peace?” Was his best offer, but you say he will do for IW? Strange.). Nor do I have a coastal city. Do I need to have discovered a city to get trade routes to it?

    I did contemplate moving Edirne, but that would delay the rush a lot IMO. Also re: hunting, AH, I figured I would like the food for whipping.
     
  4. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    At least Isabella didn't build every wonder in the game this time, shouldn't be teching quite as hard.

    GK would give IW + fishing in peace treaty if you ask for it. Don't always accept their first offer. ;)

    I probably wouldn't have taken Old Sarai in the axe rush. There's also a good chance I wouldn't have waited until cuirs to continue the war. Overall the land is not very good here. Grabbing better land sooner is always an option to consider.

    Maths would have been my next tech after writing, especially playing it blind as it seemed we might be semi iso with GK at that time. You didn't get much value for alpha in a long time.

    Way too many non-river cottages for my taste. Takes 30 turns before they beat even a normal coast tile if you have lighthouses (which for some reason you don't).

    Samsun should absolutely be 1E on desert hill to be able to share gold+copper if needed and not waste that grass hill.

    Tech order seems a bit strange like lymond said. CS was late, currency even later. Currency is very much needed early here, combined with foreign trade routes either through sailing or roads. 650BC you are two roads away from connecting to Ragnar, shouldn't wait until 1 AD.

    @lymond I don't think avoiding AH is a good idea here. Have to settle Edirne for axe rush and sheep is only food available.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
  5. scheines

    scheines Warlord

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    Agreed on Samsun... I don’t know why I placed it differently this time.

    I’m unclear on the consensus for grassland cottages, especially compared to coast. For instance:

    Would you skip the grassland cottages for Turfan? If so, what do I do once I am working 2 scientists pre caste? Would you opt to instead just grow on the coast (lighthouse coast obviously) or something, and then work specialists as much as you can? Would your answer change if you knew you might try for a space victory?

    Similarly, if I skip those tiles in Ankara, I won’t be able to grow to happy cap. Is that not suboptimal?
     
  6. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Here's my attempt at 1360BC with Krak fallen. I stole 3 worker from GK earlier :lol: ..making peace twice. (I had a double worker steal)

    I settled Edirne 1N to share corn and chop a quick monument.

    I teched Myst and Fish before Writing. My logic here on Fish early is simply as we know we are at the end of a Peninsula with no where to go and blocked by GK. If there is AI somewhere I want to meet them asap and hopefully open trade routes later. My scout wb here as already above Spain, although that nasty coastal barb city will cause problems.

    Istanbul already has a Library and I've already produced a GS and bulbed Maths. May try for Mids here but I don't much in the way of forest. Krak may be a better place to try for it.

    Have not met Rags yet and assume GK and Rags love each other, so I'm likely racking up some good malus with Rags :loL:. But I'd probably do some more ceasefires and try to eliminate GK entirely at this point.

    economy is fine here

    @elitetroops I have not teched hunting or AH yet here and feel fine without it. Edirne I settled to share corn.

    And I farmed the sheep
     

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  7. scheines

    scheines Warlord

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    Hmm... interesting monument. this might be the first time I’ve seen someone suggest I make more buildings :lol:
     
  8. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    1140BC....GK is gone.

    Chopped Monument in Krak first as worth it definitely not just for food but for all the full forest chops for Mids which hopefully I can get here. That would be heeeuuuge.

    Met Rags and indeed he is not happy but at least OB'd with me. And I did take a ceasefire again with GK and dow'd again....so Rags has -4 from that which could be a problem.

    Omg..between workers and settlers captured, I got like at least 8 workers from GK..ha

    Really the later ceasefires in hindsight were unnecessary. Besh and Turf had one archer each..ugh.

    Nice Barb city spawn at pigs for free city and have just the axes to take it :)... I was busting over there earlier but GK sent an archer there in expectation of settling (that settler is now working for moi ;)) ..so when that archer moved away after my DOW the barb city spawned.

    edit: save attached
     

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  9. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    what buildings are you referring to? In my current game I only have granaries in all cities (pretty fast), a monument in Edirne and Krak cause necessary, and a Library in Bul. Edirne and Ankara are working on Libraries now since no more units needed.

    I need a settler for clams eventually but I'm at 6 cities with some quite distant, so I will wait on that. Pigs will be free soon and I should have sailing in trade soon I hope, and at least viking routes.

    Turf needs a mona too but I already see Izzy sending Bud mish my way, so I hope to join the true religion soon.
     
  10. scheines

    scheines Warlord

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    Was joking a bit about the monument in edirne. Seems like advice would usually be to settle a city with food inner ring, or if a city is for copper, settle copper inner ring.
     
  11. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    With early worker steals it's an entirely different story.. I avoided that even if I had a chance, because that decision would have been based on map knowledge that shouldn't have been available to me at that time.
     
  12. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Well, Edirne is far better sharing corn + sheep. I don't think waiting for border pop changed the attack much. All things considered - hypothetically....I would have still settled Edirne in such a way and may not have even considered axe rush at least until better map knowledge at that point in time...not knowing already the situation we were in here.

    FOOD>>>>>>>desert copper any way you look at it. Despite the gold Edirne was never that great a city for you other than some mild tile sharing with Bul.

    Actually, I did not set out to worker steal..ha...I sent my warrior West first and then hugged the coast along the south. So I dow'd on like turn 15 or so cause the opportunity was there. Did not even consider it until my warrior passed by his borders...and it is what I would normally do..ha

    The double worker steal was completely unexpected. I was basically combo spawnbusting and keeping an eye out for his settler possibly moving West.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
  13. scheines

    scheines Warlord

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    Trade routes might be the most confusing thing I've seen in this game...

    It definitely seems like you must have discovered a city to have TRs there; it is not enough simply to know an AI.

    But why, in the trades-w-birka save, do I have a TR with Birka, but not say, Barcelona or Thebes? I do see the arrows icon in the scorecard indicating the connections. Why do GK and Ragnar have these? I assumed that was from roading or sailing (or astro if required)?

    Then, in trade-later, I magically get TRs with Hatshep, but lose the one Ragnar TR I had? For the record, I had just gotten calendar, but that shouldn't change anything, right? I still have no open borders with GK, so that shouldn't be a factor, even though his culture is blocking the coast.

    Another example:

    Compare the hatty-no-tr save to hatty-yes-tr. They are from I think 75 AD and 175 AD, 4 turns later. What changes to give me trade routes?


    PS - after some reruns we are getting better. I did 200 AD CS this time. Still not super pretty, but better by ~300 years. Would appreciate any opinions on whether CoL is best gotten via Currency or the religion tree. Both seem to have merits (trading gold & more TRs vs. monarchy, wonder failgolding, less beakers).

    The game is flowing so differently it is a little hard to compare one-to-one with previous games (Hatshep in Buddhism totally changes the dynamics of the continent, GK declared on Ragnar instead of me), but I think the mid-game is generally the same. Am struggling to place my finger on what I doing better lol.
     

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  14. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Coastal trade routes require that you have scouted coast tiles all the way to the city. Trade routes by road can go through the fog. First save Birka is the only city that fullfills the coastal trade route requirement. Birka is not connected by road to any more cities and GK hasn't connected to any of his neighbors yet. Next save Isabella has built a road that connected with GK's road, now you have land trade routes to all of Egypt and Spain.

    Check out Soundjata's deity no cottage games for some inspiration. :) Not recommmending full no cottage at all, build them in capital for sure, but farms can be a pretty good replacement elsewhere on non riverside tiles as soon as you get CS (another reason you want it very early here). Use food to run scientists in caste/paci or to whip stuff into failgold or something. If I was trying for space I'd farm them even harder to whip catapults or whatever other units suitable to conquer the continent asap. They'd become workshops later.

    I meant the first worker steal before BW. I wouldn't advice anyone to steal from a very nearby Genghis before they know if they have any strategic resources. ;) Later worker steals are up to RNG, workers might be protected by archers or not. Not saying the mysticism route can't be better, might well be. I didn't really think about city locations at all, just went with what OP had done. The big difference in your save still comes mainly from the worker steals. You chopped every single forest in your lands before early maths. Only one 3rd ring chop after maths was in.
     
  15. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I think in the case of Birka saves, the war between GK and Rags nixed that route. Elite's analysis otherwise explains it all well. Scout wb really pays off well here in that regard. Seems you attempted a scout wb in one save but maybe not early enough and got blocked by GK...who really should be dead.

    Yep, agree that it is general not advisable to worker steal on a psycho without metal knowledge, though it is still something personally that I'm inclined to do regardless except in games that matter. The one extra worker was indeed helpful in speeding up the rush a bit.

    The maths bulb was integral in chopping Mids in Krak which was built almost entirely from those chops.

    Anyway, sheines, I still think you are putting too much priority on techings things that you could easily trade for here like Monarchy and Calendar, instead of keeping focus on the goal. Academy is not bad by any means, but I like a Maths bulb here with a Philo Leader. Later on you could use an extra GS for an academy after Lib bulb path complete. Not getting Mids was unfortunate. Also, I think it best that GK come to an inglorious end early.

    Here's a coupla screenshots from may game:

    Here I'm a turn away from Music....a little late, but went CS first earlier. CS being discovered at 75BC with immediate switch to Bureau. Earlier on switch to Rep and OR when Mids was built in 875BC. I wanted OR for Bud spread for Paci later. and hammers in the meantime. Paci was bulbed in 350bc, and I'd like to have adopted it immediately but pointless until Bud spreads to keep cities so waited for GA.

    I used a GE from Krak on MoM in fish/iron city. Bit a a gamble waiting for GE to arrive there, but not big deal to me as I'd use it later on Taj instead. But nice there since a) immediate culture for fish b) city not big deal for gpp pollution.
    Spoiler Muzak :


    This next shot just to show 303beakers at 100% (I can actually finish Aesths at 0%). Strong rate for 1AD and really I have more potential here if running more scientists but I'm focusing on growth for golden age soon.

    Note that I'm scouting with one of my free mishes here instead of a warrior or axe better used for MP.

    Spoiler 1AD :


    Also, another little tidbit, something that is newer to my arsenal, is paying attention to gpp generation. If you have multiple cities that are generating GPP with strong potential to produce GPs like in a golden age, monitor the GPPs and don't be in rush to just pump out the GP in the fastest city. Rather taper off the faster cities and produce GPs first from those cities that are slower, balancing the GPP to ultimately get several around the same time cause you produce the slower ones first. Otherwise, when the super fast ones pump out there GP first the it raises the next level by 100gpp making it even harder and slower for the other cities. (Note order of city priority in producing GPs as well, with older city taking priority. For example city A is older than city B. B is faster than A and can 1t a GP at any time now while A is close. But you slow B to let A finish first. When A hits 1t then B can max out on gpp since A takes priority. This could apply to multiple cites as well. In some cases I’ve produced GPs on consecutive turns). Krak is a good example as it has such good food
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  16. scheines

    scheines Warlord

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    Lots of good insights. I agree, bulbing math here is such a big help because I am negative GPT at 0% science slider after the war. Bulbing math saves so many turns of research in this case. I built an academy to try to avoid changing too much just to pick out specific things I was doing wrong before, one at a time.

    IIRC I had to tech a turn of monarchy and calendar to get a trade for them, but I didn't do it all myself this time. Hard to remember for sure now that I've played this start about half a dozen times.
     

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