Need some input about legion size

[Kenjister]

yeah, only a few should have it... but maybe tie it to hero level (even though you didn't like that concept so much for command) or if possible, to tie to the level of the core troop.

Tying it to the core troops would make the most sense, since it does represent elite troops, however the code is probably still there for the hero level, making that method easier to implement.

 

[stmartin]

I'm considering making the following changes: every legion unit will gain bonus experience according to the turns he is in the legion, no matter the hero has elite promotion or not. Also change elite promotion to grant strength bonus according to turns in legion.

 

[Kenjister]

Hey, that actaully sounds really good! With the addition of all the new heroes, it was actually getting fairly hard to develop most heroes to thier full potential.

 

[gunnergoz]

I like the ideas of legions being a small, cohesive group around a charismatic leader. If they get too big and diverse, they may as well be called "armies" or "regiments" or whatever, and the game will start to feel conventional.

I see the mod replicating relatively small groups of men who fought similarly to the leader, usually because they were trained to emulate his fighting skills. This would be the "core" around which his army would be built, and usually who would fight to the last with him if need by (think "300" and you get my drift, historicity of the film aside.)

That's my two bits. And there's nothing to prevent the design team to come up with some ways that the charismatic leaders can confer an additional, different bonus upon other troops they are stacked with (their "army") no matter what type they may be. This would constitute his "generalship" bonus.

 

[Ambreville]

As for the discussion on versatility, I still don't know where to land. It would be nice to merge all the promote _____ promotions into one single "command" promotion to improve versatility of the heroes, but as it now, it's not really micromanagement unless your loosing your legions at an astounding rate (if that was the case you'ld probably be microing to save your empire anyways), and it prevents heroes from becoming too strong in all aspects. Currently in my games, my heroes tend to get all their useful promotions plus a few more, allowing me to imporve their other command levels.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. I'm just looking at it from a different angle. Here's what I'm thinking, as regards flexibility and personality.

Get rid entirely of the five categories (melee, cavalry, archery, siege, and naval) and the potential limitations as they stand right now. Leave that wide open for the players to pick which initial unit they want in their Legion, making sure that a hard cap of 4 units maximum remains.

However. . .

The first unit picked as a member of a Legion determines the type of unit currently allowed in that Legion. So, if the first is a melee unit, then subsequent Legion members should be melee units as well. If during play, it becomes desirable for the player to use that Hero to command something else, he can disband the Legion's original units, and select a different type. So far, no penalty and maximum flexibility (read on before you start screaming).

So for example, if you have a commander with three archers and you decide you really need a commander for your siege weapons at the time, release the three archers, and assign the Hero to command three siege units instead. So it's pretty hassle-free.

In order to mix and match units of different types, you'd need a Combined Arms promotion. You still have to earn your command slots in order to add units to a Legion. You're just getting "generic" command slots instead. To me, this looks a lot simpler to manage.

In general, a commander can command anything -- it's just he might be better at some things than others. A natural-born cavalry leader might truly "suck" as an admiral, but he could still command ships, even if poorly! This happened a lot in history.

My gut feeling on this is that the Hero's current promotions should suggest to the player what type of units that Hero might be best at commanding--without the artificial obligation/limit currently imposed. This means that Hero promotions, at least a significant number of them, ought to focus on specific unit types. This would allow players to design their Heroes the way they want without getting almost completely pidgeon-holed into hard choices.

Following this line of thought, there are two important issues to look at:

1. Promotions Choices: currently I suspect that the choice of new promotions available to a Hero who just popped to a higher level is random. To support what I described earlier, a cavalry commander should get a majority of cavalry-related promotions to choose from when reaching the next level. So whatever that Hero commands at the time influences the types of new promotions available. Naturally, if the Legion contains units of different types, then some of the new promotions should be of use to a Combined Arms commander.

2. Hero Profiles: some Heroes might be better (or worse) at some things than others, as a matter of personal character or general cultural trait. If this is desirable, then some initial bonuses and penalties might be hard-coded into the Hero stats to better reflect historical background. So a Hero native of a mountainous region might have an innate advantage fighting in Hills and perhaps also a permanent penalty as a naval commander. Based on historical facts, some Heroes might actually have been bad strategists, and therefore could have a personal command penalty of some sort. Etc.

Now you have specific profiles for each of your Heroes (some may be better than others), you can build them as you need, and yet you can use them as you see fit, whether it is (or not) the best area for that specific commander. I hope I'm making sense here.

Cheers!

 

[Ambreville]

Just for personal (and probably gratuitous) satisfaction now...

Having experienced a treacherous Hero in the middle of a battle (twice actually), AND having recaptured the offending traitor eventually, I would have liked a way to make a public execution of the traitor in exchange for added loyalty among my remaining Heroes and a temporary Happiness bonus in the city where the execution takes place!

 

[Kenjister]

I guess your ideas are starting to grow on me... I'm starting to like the idea of having a single command promotion for units that raises all the levels in each category (though I'm not a fan of eliminating all the categories), perhaps call it rank or something. If that was implemented, it'd certainly be quite hassle free, but the only problem would be that we'd have to redesign the entire set of promotions to make the hero horrible at commanding types that he really shouldn't be commanding well (Cao Cao and navy for example).

This is where I begin to prefer the current system, since under it the hero can be thematically "commanding" all the units in his stack, but only his legion are the troops that he can effectively command to the best of his abilities (hence all the cool promotions for every level, even D). I don't quite see the different unitclass levels as an articial limit, due to the way I imagine legions in game.
This is also how I justify the smaller limit for the hero's "off" classes, simply the hero cannot command as many as well. I guess the cause of this whole discussion though is that I really don't see the limitations of class to be hassle, since I justify it with my own little explanation. I certainly see your point of view though, and it would be alot more convinient at times. I just happen to like the current system I guess. I wonder what everyone else's opinion is on this?

I like your idea about random heroes having more class oriented promotions though, since right now random heroes with a max of D in Navy can still only have navy promotions such as silk-sail and sea lord, while lacking anything for the class they have an S in

 

[Ambreville]

I guess your ideas are starting to grow on me...

Quick! Let's pour some water on top so they keep growing!

I'm starting to like the idea of having a single command promotion for units that raises all the levels in each category (though I'm not a fan of eliminating all the categories), perhaps call it rank or something. If that was implemented, it'd certainly be quite hassle free, but the only problem would be that we'd have to redesign the entire set of promotions to make the hero horrible at commanding types that he really shouldn't be commanding well (Cao Cao and navy for example).

I totally sympathize with the concern of redesigning. Designing is fun. Redesigning just isn't. As far as heroes like Cao Cao who shouldn't really be commanding ships, the approach I imagined actually covers that -- it would give Cao Cao a big penalty when leading naval units. But at least, in a bind, he could lead a fleet.

See, the thing is, leaders all have one common trait -- they lead people! Obviously most are better at one sort of thing, but it doesn't mean they're totally useless elsewhere. As far as Cao Cao goes, he could make a good leader, even on ships, it's just his tactics at sea would probably leave a lot to be desired, hence a penalty of some sort. I assume, despite their initial profiles, all heroes can LEARN and improve their leadership abilities, which is the point of the promotion system.

This is where I begin to prefer the current system, since under it the hero can be thematically "commanding" all the units in his stack, but only his legion are the troops that he can effectively command to the best of his abilities (hence all the cool promotions for every level, even D). I don't quite see the different unitclass levels as an articial limit, due to the way I imagine legions in game.
This is also how I justify the smaller limit for the hero's "off" classes, simply the hero cannot command as many as well. I guess the cause of this whole discussion though is that I really don't see the limitations of class to be hassle, since I justify it with my own little explanation. I certainly see your point of view though, and it would be alot more convinient at times.

...vastly more convenient.

I like your idea about random heroes having more class oriented promotions though, since right now random heroes with a max of D in Navy can still only have navy promotions such as silk-sail and sea lord, while lacking anything for the class they have an S in

I'm not sure what the "S" is for... but anyway, the system I described, in my opinion is more subtle and yet dynamic in that it channels the heroes' development based upon their original profile, but without the straight-jacket of the categories and their limitations.

You say "potato"... I say "potahto"...

 

[Kenjister]

"potato" vs. "potahto" sums if perfectly
I wonder what other people's opinions are on this though... yes I'm looking at you lurkers out there, make this discussion interesting!


Also, I'm not sure what S stands for either, but it sure works to convey the whole "this guy is really special he gets a cool letter of his own!" feeling.

 

[stmartin]

So let me summarize: a whole new legion system in which a hero's number of units in legion and the hero's unit combat effectiveness are separated into 2 different lines of promotions. Am I understanding this right?

 

[stmartin]

After some more consideration and feedback from Chinese players, I believe random heroes are too 'risky', aka. might be very strong, but very likely to be useless. I'm thinking about giving players choice to promote certain kind of random heroes. First choice is which unit combat type to focus on (as in current legion system). Second choice might be to focus on core unit fighting or whole legion commanding, or supplying. However, this second choice seems less necessary because random heroes can get access to quite a lot of potential promotions.

 

[Kenjister]

I like it where you can choose what combat type your hero will focus on, but I also think that forcing all the random heroes to start with at least Vigorous 1 would buff them up considerably, perhaps even enough that those changes won't be needed.

 

[edorazio]

First of all, this is a wonderful mod. Keep up the great work.

My recommendation: every hero is pre-assigned the level of each of the combat types. The new hero promotion (D, C, B, A, S as well) has two effects: each level increases the number of units he can command (you can easily tailor this to any maximum legion size you want), and provides the bonus now found in the current combat type promotion. However, as you level up the new hero promotion, its effective level is limited to the preset combat type maximum. So, for example:

Hero promotion: S
Melee: S -> allow the current melee promotion of S
Mounted: B -> allow the current mounted promotion of B only
Archery: D - > allow the current archery promotion of D only
etc.

You could also allow a limited number of combat type promotions if this is too rigid. Or even a promotion that, say, increases all combat type promotions by 1.

Obviously, you would need to go through each Hero and bump up their combat type promotions. It would also be obvious to the player what the hero specializes in.

In any event, I think it maintains specialization while also allowing for a Hero to lead any combat type as needed. They won't be as effective as a specialist because their hero promotion will be limited, and, if you also implement the idea below, their bonus promotions will not be tailored to that combat type.

The other idea is merely seconding what Ambreville already suggested: I also second the recommendation of biasing the "bonus" promotions to the hero's "specialty" combat type.

Oh, I also second Ambreville's idea of allowing you to execute a treacherous hero! He had a hero twice betray him: so did I! I wanted to use the delete button, but that is not a proper execution!

 

[stmartin]

First of all, this is a wonderful mod. Keep up the great work.

My recommendation: every hero is pre-assigned the level of each of the combat types. The new hero promotion (D, C, B, A, S as well) has two effects: each level increases the number of units he can command (you can easily tailor this to any maximum legion size you want), and provides the bonus now found in the current combat type promotion. However, as you level up the new hero promotion, its effective level is limited to the preset combat type maximum. So, for example:

Hero promotion: S
Melee: S -> allow the current melee promotion of S
Mounted: B -> allow the current mounted promotion of B only
Archery: D - > allow the current archery promotion of D only
etc.

Thanks for the advice, however, due to my English ability, I don't understand your suggestion. By 'Hero promotion S', what do you mean, what effect does this promotion have? Also I don't understand this, 'as you level up the new hero promotion, its effective level is limited to the preset combat type maximum'.

You could also allow a limited number of combat type promotions if this is too rigid. Or even a promotion that, say, increases all combat type promotions by 1.

Obviously, you would need to go through each Hero and bump up their combat type promotions. It would also be obvious to the player what the hero specializes in.

Can anyone explain this paragraph to me?

In any event, I think it maintains specialization while also allowing for a Hero to lead any combat type as needed. They won't be as effective as a specialist because their hero promotion will be limited, and, if you also implement the idea below, their bonus promotions will not be tailored to that combat type.

The other idea is merely seconding what Ambreville already suggested: I also second the recommendation of biasing the "bonus" promotions to the hero's "specialty" combat type.

Oh, I also second Ambreville's idea of allowing you to execute a treacherous hero! He had a hero twice betray him: so did I! I wanted to use the delete button, but that is not a proper execution!

'biasing the "bonus" promotions to the hero's "specialty" combat type.' I think ALL historical heroes currently in the mod has their ability and potential promotions well tailored. Do you mean random heroes?

Ah, at last I found something I can understand. Execution of your own hero? I can add a option to enable execution when you capture a hero.

 

[Ambreville]

(...)'biasing the "bonus" promotions to the hero's "specialty" combat type.' I think ALL historical heroes currently in the mod has their ability and potential promotions well tailored. Do you mean random heroes?

Ah, at last I found something I can understand. Execution of your own hero? I can add a option to enable execution when you capture a hero.

It is unfortunate you aren't understanding the issue regarding the level/category limitations. Although currently 'well tailored' from your historical point of view, they are a drawback when considered purely from a game point of view. The 'A/B/C/D' structure is completely rigid. Using bonuses/penalties and a dynamic choice of ensuing promotions rather than unchanging templates of levels/categories could accomplish the same thing without locking player in. It would be more flexible and ultimately, a much better game.

 

[edorazio]

Yeah, sorry, I realize I didn't explain it very well.

So, currently a hero has to individually promote his proficiency in each of the combat types (melee, mounted, archery, siege, naval), which I call combat type promotions. He starts with a certain value and he can only achieve a certain predetermined maximum.

I propose that you eliminate this. Instead, each hero is assigned a value for each combat type. So, let's say we have a hero right now who starts with no combat type promotions, but can potentially achieve A/D/A/D/D if you fully promote them. In this system, you would eliminate the ability to increase their proficiency in each combat type. In return, the Hero begins with A/D/A/D/D.

Then you add a separate promotion: lets call it Leadership. Leadership can have the same 5 levels (D, C, B, A, S). For each level of this promotion, the Hero gains two advantages: 1. an increase in the number of units they can lead, and 2. increase the bonus for each combat type promotion.

Let's look at this second advantage more closely. Right now every time you increase a combat type promotion (i.e. going from Melee D to Melee C), your legion troops get a larger bonus. What each level of Leadership would do is allow this bonus for every combat type. Thus, Leadership D would grant the D level bonus for melee/mounted/archery/siege/naval. However, this bonus would be limited by the Hero's predetermined proficiency in each combat type as described above. That is to say, the bonus legion members get can never exceed the proficiency level of the Hero for their combat type.

Let's try another example. Let's say we have this hero with the following starting values:

A: Melee
D: Mounted
B: Archery
D: Siege
/: Naval

So, what would happen at each level of Leadership?

Leadership D: It would be like he has Melee D, Mounted D, Archery D, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership C: It would be like he has Melee C, Mounted D, Archery C, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership B: It would be like he has Melee B, Mounted D, Archery B, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership A: It would be like he has Melee A, Mounted D, Archery B, and Siege D in the current system.

Leadership S: It would be like he has Melee A, Mounted D, Archery B, and Siege D in the current system. (but he can command more units!)


Now, I thought this system may be too inflexible. I offered the possibility that you add a promotion that would increase the level of each combat type by 1. Thus, our Hero who started with A/D/A/D/D would instead become S/C/S/C/C. Powerful, yes, but you can limit the number of heroes who can get it, and also allow only one level of it.

If you wanted to allow combined arms, I feel like the current system, specifically the combat type promotion system, would not accommodate it well. It would take many promotions (and thus hero levels) to get proficient in different areas to allow effective combined arms. Right now, getting to Melee A and Mounted A is 6 promotions! This is not even counting the "bonus" hero promotions, which really give the flavor that I love about legions.

Indeed, I would like you to focus on these "bonus" promotions! Implementing my idea means that a hero need only focus on one promotion, Leadership, to increase the proficiency of his legion members. This allows him to focus on the "bonus" promotions that can really let him specialize...

I hope this was clear! If not, I will keep trying!

 

[Kenjister]

It is unfortunate you aren't understanding the issue regarding the level/category limitations. Although currently 'well tailored' from your historical point of view, they are a drawback when considered purely from a game point of view. The 'A/B/C/D' structure is completely rigid. Using bonuses/penalties and a dynamic choice of ensuing promotions rather than unchanging templates of levels/categories could accomplish the same thing without locking player in. It would be more flexible and ultimately, a much better game.

Ok, I guess I'm going to have to disagree with the whole gameplay assessment here.
I really don't think the ABCD structure is rigid, since your hero can be promoted in a myriad of different ways. The only limitations that I see are the historical limitations of the commander's ability, which (I'm not sure) it doesn't appear you want to have. The problem with implementing bonuses and penalties would be that if lets say there was a penalty for Cao Cao leading Navy, then nobody would use Cao Cao for navy, and he'd be sitting on the sidelines. If there were actually an incentive to use him for navy, then he'd actually be good at navy in the game and it would be rather unhistorical.

EDIT: so, edorazio, baically your proposing a leadership promotion that would effectively combine the effects of the current ones, but while still retaining the cap right?

 

[edorazio]

Yes. However, since the point is to allow combined arms, I think the max number of legion members should be increased to at least 6. If you like my Leadership promotion idea, its easy to implement since you can make each level increase the size of the legion by one except the last (or maybe first) which can do it by two...

 

[Ambreville]

Ok, I guess I'm going to have to disagree

...must you really?

I really don't think the ABCD structure is rigid, since your hero can be promoted in a myriad of different ways. The only limitations that I see are the historical limitations of the commander's ability, which (I'm not sure) it doesn't appear you want to have. The problem with implementing bonuses and penalties would be that if lets say there was a penalty for Cao Cao leading Navy, then nobody would use Cao Cao for navy, and he'd be sitting on the sidelines. If there were actually an incentive to use him for navy, then he'd actually be good at navy in the game and it would be rather unhistorical.

Here's what's bugging me the way this works now.

Based on the current system we have the following situation:

King: "General Tso, you are command the 3,000 pikemen on the right wing. Any questions?"

Tso: "No, Your Majesty. It'll be an honor and a privilege."

King: "General Kung Pao, you will lead the 2,000 light cavalry on the left wing. Any questions?"

Kung Pao: "Well, Your Majesty, it's just I'd rather command Tso's 3,000 pikemen because I can't seem to find it in myself to command the 2,000 light cavalry, even poorly I'm afraid."

King: "What about 1,000 of my best Tiger Horsemen instead?"

Kung Pao: "So sorry, Your Majesty, as exciting as it sounds I just wouldn't know how. In fact, I'm not sure I've figured out how to mount a horse yet. Could I borrow your chariot perhaps? I heard it comes with a driver."

King: "You most certain may not, you worthless hero. How about you General Tso?"

Tso: "Well, at least I can ride a horse. I'm able to command that magnificent thousand Tiger Horsemen, but not the 2,000 light cavalry. I might stretch it a teensy bit and lead 1,100, maybe even 1,200 on a downward slope and in a straight line, but 1,201 would most definitely exceed my mental capabilities. So geez, I couldn't possibly do the whole 2,000, obviously."

etc.

Get my point?

When I look at the present structure, this is what I see. Fundamentally, this situation is absurd. You are most welcome to utterly disagree, but that doesn't change the facts. If you can command 4 units of something, you CAN command 4 units of something else, even if you might totally suck at it. Using the excuse this is "historical" doesn't hold water either. You show me a general capable of commanding 1,000 swordsmen but who couldn't an equivalent force of archers or cavalry. Bogus! Historically, warlords commanded very diverse forces and were masters at adapting to the situations they faced. The present system is not historical, it's not realistic, it's not flexible -- a pain the saddle for the gamers is what it is.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well, the fact that they could have commanded them but poorly, and therefore should be allowed to command them, should give them NEGATIVE bonuses.

E.g. In the battle of Red Cliff, one ruse of Zhou Yu was to have Cao Cao execute his 2 former Liu Biao and since defected naval commanders, Cao Mao and Zhang Yun, which probably led to the disastrous linking of the ships and subsequent burning of the navy. (The film version is probably not historical since it was the 2 naval commanders who suggested the linking in the film)