Nerf AI conquering City States?

[historix69]

CS are artificial, so you can implement all kind of rules which improve gameplay.
It would be no problem to give them all tech of the era the most advanced (known?) player is in, e.g. when the first player enters Medieval, all CS would gain access to all Medieval techs and advances. The units of a CS should be auto-upgraded on such an event, so that CS always have up-to-date units and are a challenge.
CS at war should not be allowed to raze capitals or other CS, instead they should have a plunder option similar to coastal raiders and pirates (I think like some units in Civ5 for some time.)

 

[MisterBoomBoom]

I don't mind if a CS is taken over. It allows me to reap all the wonderful benefits of liberating them . Of course, it would be a better mechanic to have the AI determine the value of CS's before deciding to willy-nilly invade and take them over but I would be piling on and I wish to have a positive attitude.

 

[kb27787]

This is officially being addressed in the upcoming update by buffing City State production for walls and increasing early defensive values. Finally some relief for those who correctly identified the problem.

Strange.. Ive played quite a few games after the update and the CS are still being eaten up like no tomorrow in the early game...
seriously on deity they need to give CS 5 starting warriors to be on par with AI and also give them palace guard bonuses.

That or we can go back to BNW days where capturing a CS gave warmonger pts as if you eliminated a whole civ.. And make AIs declare war based on the diplomatic modifiers rather than just because they feel like doing so.

 

[Pietato]

Yeah, I counted 9 CS eliminated by turn 29 in my current game.

 

[Tuvok694]

Yeah, I counted 9 CS eliminated by turn 29 in my current game.

And such things happen ALL the time. It is completely RIDICULOUS. Why have city states at all if they are taken out after a fraction of the playing duration?
If someone could please answer this question for me: Did the "inventors" of this game really want it to be this way?

 

[NoonePerson]

I think personally it would be hilarious if AIs instead got scaling CS envoy yield boons per difficulty level, perhaps even for Suzerainity.

Then tone down the AI war factor.

 

[Victoria]

It’s a bit depressing when you declare a protectorate, fight the enemy off and the CS does not repair its walls.

 

[Delvi]

I think the best way for avoiding this would be to improve the defensive buildings and army of all city states by default, in order to make them a "not easy target".

I take also the chance to say that I'd like to see more attention on city state location, it sucks to see Stockholm in the desert and Carthage in tundra tiles...

 

[acluewithout]

Letting city states expand to 2 or 3 cities at some point would help them - and surely wouldn’t be hard to implement. They could also use better units - as already suggested.

 

[agonistes]

That's a great mod for helping the city states! Thanks for posting it.
I can imagine this mod makes it almost impossible for the AI to take any city state though

They can, and they do. But rarely during the first two ages, and less common later. Its a great mod.

I use a version of it that gives all capitals free walls as well.

 

[NoonePerson]

I think the best way for avoiding this would be to improve the defensive buildings and army of all city states by default, in order to make them a "not easy target".

I take also the chance to say that I'd like to see more attention on city state location, it sucks to see Stockholm in the desert and Carthage in tundra tiles...

I think that giving them walls as a freebie would be an acceptable quick fix. Emphasis on quick; it does not solve the issue of a major game feature being bottlenecked every game by AI that makes compensatory measures in certain eras.

That being said, Deity should be a challenge. It's not surprising that AI boons have a drastic effect on the AIs overall strategy. Even if the AI is going for a culture victory, that's one extra city with earlier districts and culture bonuses.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Reflecting on the posts above, I had these thoughts:

1. If a major civ can't take out a single city civ, then it could never pose a threat to the human player. Giving the City States early/beginning Walls may help now, but if the AI's ability to attack is improved (as I hope it will be), it won't be enough to allow a City State to defend itself throughout the whole game.
2. To allow most City States to survive, there needs to be one or more game mechanics that allow them to survive. It could be how costly they make the attack, i.e. how well they defend, but that's not likely to be sufficient. In Civ 5, you had two mechanisms: (a) you earned the hatred of other City States, (b) once the City State was under the influence of a major Civ, you couldn't attack them without declaring war on the major Civ first. I thought the latter was particularly effective, and don't think they've improved the game in Civ 6 by moving away from this.
3. Whatever is implemented for #2 should be symmetrical between the AI and humans. It shouldn't just be to code the AI to be less aggressive towards City States, as the human will retain all of the current incentives to absorb City States and gain another advantage (should s/he choose to use it) over the AI.
4. The incentive to conquer a City State could be further reduced by providing bonuses to influencing nearby City States. Right now, you get a single bonus Envoy if you're the first to discover a City State. After that, your ability to influence a City State is usually (a few quests excepting) unrelated to how close you are to the City State. I'd propose:
   • Generate extra Envoys with each City State based on how much Loyalty pressure your population is exerting. City States close to your major population centres and capital would then be more likely to fall into your sphere of influence.
   • Make a free Envoy from a trade route a universal bonus rather than a quest-specific one, so that you know that you can gain some influence with every City State you meet just by trading with them. I think that reflects one of the benefits of large trade empires, and it helps jump start your relationship with nearby City States in the early game.
   • Modify the Civ 5 mechanism where you can demand tribute from a City State if they're afraid of your military to be one where you automatically gain Envoys with City States based on how close your military is and how strong it is relative to their defensive forces. Just a little realpolitick so that your neighbouring City States acknowledge the vulnerable position they're in.

 

[gozpel]

As I said in an other post, just give the CS walls and 5 warriors from the start. The AI can't fight that!

I want CS to stay alive, not me being forced to go to war to retake them and liberate them.

Sometimes I play warmongerer, sometimes I just like to be left alone and build stuff.

 

[Delvi]

1) I'd like city states to be like Venice in Civilization V: no settlers to found other cities but able to conquer other cities (or to have puppet cities as exactly was for Venice, if there will be puppet cities with next expansions).
2) Have AI of city state more prone to build up walls, barracks etc. and a decent army
3) CS which can create ally and help each other in case of aggression
The most important thing would be to implement that so that for some specific civs would still convenient to conquer CS, but for others would be better to be peaceful and ally with them.

 

[newbie2]

I use the workshop mod that gives free walls to CS, playing on Emperor they survive throughout the game (except maybe one or two sometimes)


it needs to be implemented asap into the game

 

[Tuvok694]

On the one hand it's really enjoyable to read all your posts. So many people who have creative, useful ideas how to solve problems.
On the other hand I keep asking myself: Why are we users smarter than the developers of the game? Or why don't they at least read what's being posted here?
In the latest patch notes, I found nothing addressing the city state problem. It doesn't even seem to be on their radar.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Why are we users smarter than the developers of the game?

We're not. We just have different priorities.

Our priority: see the game become as fun an experience to play as it can be, based on our personal preferences.

Developers priorities: some combination of build their reputation in the industry, not get fired, earn a bonus, see their ideas come to life in the game, have fun developing the game. At some point up the chain add in sell the most games possible and don't spend more money/time than you were budgeted.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Players will always be better than developers at their own game, as players play for in-game goals, often to win while developers are looking to sell a product.

The player base has collectively spent millions of hours playing the game and knowledge is being shared every day. If you consider the amount of strategy discussion that happens every day and multiply it by every day the game's been out, that's a lot of knowledge the players have that any mortal would have trouble to even think about it.

 

[shaglio]

The players who mod the game also have the benefit of piggybacking on the developer's code. For the most part, modders aren't writing their own code from scratch; they're tweaking and altering the existing code to create new things.

My cousin always gets upset with guitarists who say they can play a song better than the original musician. That might be true, but could they have written that guitar part on their own in the first place?

NOTE: I am in no why trying to discredit all the wonderful mods that our modders have created for this game as well as the hard work and time they spent doing so. I'm merely trying to put things into perspective in regards to developing a video game.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

My cousin always gets upset with guitarists who say they can play a song better than the original musician. That might be true, but could they have written that guitar part on their own in the first place?

My best writing are things I've edited for others. The best things I've written myself have had the benefit of being edited by others.