New Beta Version - September 25th (9-25)

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You still fill up your GA meter while in a GA, so you wouldn't leave it with zero, unless it dropped to zero during the GA.

G

Your buffer resets though. Instead of 50 turns of GAP keeping you from unhappiness, you'd only have 8.

I'm not saying this is going to be a concern relevant to every game but it could certainly happen.
 
Your buffer resets though. Instead of 50 turns of GAP keeping you from unhappiness, you'd only have 8.

I'm not saying this is going to be a concern relevant to every game but it could certainly happen.

Yes, but - again - you're already getting this penalty now regardless of the 'buffer' you could or couldn't have if I make this change. That's my point.

G
 
Artistry, Stupas, Hero Worship, German UA, Iconography (and any other Enhancer beliefs that provided GAP), Apostolic Tradition, Wisdom pantheon, Love pantheon, Mongol UA, Taj Mahal, GAP monopolies, Colosseum...you'd revamp all this?
And Satraps.

The ones that really need to be looked at are the constant flows (stupas, Taj Mahal, satraps, GAP monopolies), since +1:c5goldenage: would effectively work as a +1:c5happy: in many cases.
 
Yes, but - again - you're already getting this penalty now regardless of the 'buffer' you could or couldn't have if I make this change. That's my point.

G

I'm just saying in the state the game is now, yes I experience unhappiness fluctuations before and after golden ages due to yield changes. But I never feel "punished" for having entered a golden age. My point is that If the golden age pool really does eliminate unhappiness penalties, if I know I'm about to enter a period of time where my happiness could tank I'd much rather hold on to the GAP buffer. I wouldn't work tiles that provide points, avoid social policies giving them in the meantime, avoid GAP buildings, etc. You can call this strategy but I see it as exploitation.
 
And Satraps.

The ones that really need to be looked at are the constant flows (stupas, Taj Mahal, satraps, GAP monopolies), since +1:c5goldenage: would effectively work as a +1:c5happy: in many cases.

Yep. You (@chicorbeef) act like I didn't just redo two baseline promotion sets for naval units. :)

G
 
And Satraps.

The ones that really need to be looked at are the constant flows (stupas, Taj Mahal, satraps, GAP monopolies), since +1:c5goldenage: would effectively work as a +1:c5happy: in many cases.
Instant yields still contribute to the pool and will act no different to constant happiness. If I get +500 GAP, that's a buffer against unhappiness equivalent to getting +50 GAP for 10 turns.

Yep. You (@chicorbeef) act like I didn't just redo two baseline promotion sets for naval units. :)

G
Oh, and Lebensraum, and Tradition, and Korea, and National Monument, and Stadiums, and Creative Expression, and Civilized Jewelers, and City-State Quests, and Globe Theatre, any GA-giving theme bonuses, Global Commandments. All this would be affected, in addition to everything I posted above, right?

Not to mention any 3/4 UCs that give GAP or any other mods.
 
Use top level smoothing _plus_ an ‘overflow’ pool of ‘becoming unhappy’ citizens. So happiness can only change by 1 per turn, but the overflow pool of ‘pressure’ holds the other changing values. Make sense?

G
While both suggestions are interesting, I am drawn to this one. The player can quickly tell where the happiness is heading, the level that it will rest and how many turns he has to alleviate the situation. Not to say that this isn't the case with the GAP buffer method, but it's more direct?

Would you also need to rescale the threshold for the next Golden Age in the second option? Would this make happiness more important for Golden Ages compared to GAP?
 
Not to mention any 3/4 UCs that give GAP or any other mods.
There's only 3 of those right now (Sambadrome, Qizilbash and Yamato)

I'm not worried.
 
The GA idea is an interesting one, but the easiest way to deal with the happiness drops should be..... solving the happiness drops.
We are all playing this game so long, I think we can wait a bit longer and collect some data.
Everyone which get hit by big happiness drop (Like 30+ in small empires or 50+ in bigger ones), should send a savegame 1 turn before it occurs into this thread or a new one and we can analize what is happening. In most cases its happening when entering a new era, so I think its based around distress and specialists, but not completly sure about it. I ask again, is happiness mechanic directly influenced by era? (like unhappiness is modified by an era modificator)

Remember for compatibility, send only savegames with VP mod only.
 
The GA idea is an interesting one, but the easiest way to deal with the happiness drops should be..... solving the happiness drops.
We are all playing this game so long, I think we can wait a bit longer and collect some data.
Everyone which get hit by big happiness drop (Like 30+ in small empires or 50+ in bigger ones), should send a savegame 1 turn before it occurs into this thread or a new one and we can analize what is happening. In most cases its happening when entering a new era, so I think its based around distress and specialists, but not completly sure about it. I ask again, is happiness mechanic directly influenced by era? (like unhappiness is modified by an era modificator)

Remember for compatibility, send only savegames with VP mod only.

Sigh. It's not affected by era. I've already explained why people see it, but it continues to fall on deafened ears. TL;DR: When you convert decimal and hundreds values to single digits for the purpose of happiness, you can hit situations where, in large empires, a few values 'tipping over' into the next whole integer in every city will cause a swing. There's no bug, there's no secret fix, it's just the nature of rounding.

There's no secret here:
https://github.com/LoneGazebo/Community-Patch-DLL/blob/master/CvGameCoreDLL_Expansion2/CvCity.cpp

Line 20369. That's where the city happiness code starts.

Tell you what: if anyone finds a bug in the happiness code, they get to be a Great Person in the game. Everyone wins: I get a debugger, you get to live in infamy.

G
 
I don't have any opposition to having GAP help against unhappiness.

However, if this happens, I am strongly in favour of replacing all the +1 GAP per turn by +1 happiness (ex: in the mastery belief).

Or at the contrary replacing most happiness sources by GAP.

That would be very confusing to have two things (happiness and GAP per turn) that are the same except for details.
 
I'm strongly in favour of GAPs used against unhappiness. Not because I dislike the unhappiness system, quite because of the contrary! It's so essential to game balance that linking it even deeper to other (player-controlled) game mechanics is definitely desirable!

I am for such buffer, absolutely.
 
I like the notion of GAP fighting unhappiness, it's not a bad one. However, I fear it might make happiness trivial. There are just so many GA points throughout the game.

How are you planning on reducing them all, G? I'm actually curious to see how you pull this off.
 
Sigh. It's not affected by era. I've already explained why people see it, but it continues to fall on deafened ears. TL;DR: When you convert decimal and hundreds values to single digits for the purpose of happiness, you can hit situations where, in large empires, a few values 'tipping over' into the next whole integer in every city will cause a swing. There's no bug, there's no secret fix, it's just the nature of rounding.

There's no secret here:
https://github.com/LoneGazebo/Community-Patch-DLL/blob/master/CvGameCoreDLL_Expansion2/CvCity.cpp

Line 20369. That's where the city happiness code starts.

Tell you what: if anyone finds a bug in the happiness code, they get to be a Great Person in the game. Everyone wins: I get a debugger, you get to live in infamy.

G
Calm down :) I never thought its a real bug, more a weird result of some calculations and city manager behavior.
Its a bit suspicious my happiness drops dramatically at entering a new era, 30 happiness in a 7 city empire (no large empire) is 4 happiness per city. This means 4 of 5 happiness values were close to jump over the gap with one tech?
Cause of that I would check what is directly happening, if such a jump happens.

How is: If anyone find an easy solution to this problem, he gets his Great Person? ;)
 
I think its kind of hard to balance, because some buildings like constabularies or military academies have a -50% distress modifier, so they are meant to make a big difference and not ignored, but they also take a long time to build, so people are suddenly finding themselves in need of these buildings and this takes some time to get done, which can feel VERY long if you are dipping on -20 values.
On the flip side, before the buildings were "buffed" so to speak, I remember you could 100% ignore the buildings because happiness was almost never an issue, only thing I would probably have to build back then were circuses and zoos.
On a side note, I'm also finding in wide empires, grabbing wonders that give some distress or illiteracy reduction seem to help greatly (maybe 1-2 points per city, which is huge).
Personally I find it would be interesting to see the savefiles of players that get those massive dips, to study what's missing and maybe if its playstyle related, as even in vanilla not all playstyles could be used, no matter the difficulty.
What does their infrastructure look like? What techs have they chosen to follow? Religion? Social policies? ect...

On the patch itself, I'm finding the change for archeologist very hard on china (who doesn't like to stack massive bonuses during some eras I supose), but I guess its way more fair for the rest of civs.
I feel with the latest tinkering to rationalism and imperialism got, industry has finally fallen behind, would this be the correct place to talk about this or maybe I'm the only one having this feeling?
 
Several questions.

When does the GAP buffer start to apply? At -1 happiness? At -20 happiness?
Which penalties are affected? Combat bonus? Productivity? Revolt? Settling ability?
What happens if, when I'm losing GAP points due to unhappiness, I trigger a GA by other means? Does it still continue to deplete?

More importantly. How does the player know what is going on? If a player see that the empire is at -50 happiness during a few turns and nothing happens, is he going to do something about it or just relax thinking happiness is just a number? Will not players complain anyways about the happiness swings, even if they don't hurt?

About balancing GAP everywhere, wouldn't it be easier to let unhappiness destroy more than 1 GAP per unhappiness point, and not touching GAP values everywhere?

But before going down that path,
why don't just change productivity effects of unhappiness so they affect the parts that make people more unhappy, aka, food and science? If being unhappy means that my cities grow and research slowlier, then I'm giving them time to build before unhappiness becomes unmanageable. Right now, production and gold are affected, meaning that it becomes more difficult to produce the buildings or the units that could solve the situation.
TL;;DR
Make happiness affect just growth and science productivity, spare the other yields productivity.
 
Several questions.

When does the GAP buffer start to apply? At -1 happiness? At -20 happiness?
Which penalties are affected? Combat bonus? Productivity? Revolt? Settling ability?
What happens if, when I'm losing GAP points due to unhappiness, I trigger a GA by other means? Does it still continue to deplete?

More importantly. How does the player know what is going on? If a player see that the empire is at -50 happiness during a few turns and nothing happens, is he going to do something about it or just relax thinking happiness is just a number? Will not players complain anyways about the happiness swings, even if they don't hurt?

About balancing GAP everywhere, wouldn't it be easier to let unhappiness destroy more than 1 GAP per unhappiness point, and not touching GAP values everywhere?

But before going down that path,
why don't just change productivity effects of unhappiness so they affect the parts that make people more unhappy, aka, food and science? If being unhappy means that my cities grow and research slowlier, then I'm giving them time to build before unhappiness becomes unmanageable. Right now, production and gold are affected, meaning that it becomes more difficult to produce the buildings or the units that could solve the situation.
TL;;DR
Make happiness affect just growth and science productivity, spare the other yields productivity.

that could indeed make the drops less steep.
for example: i get a drop from 20 happiness to -30. that's like if i had a productivity mod from 120% drop down to 70%, that's almost halving the productivity. so it's no wonder the cities are unhappy, if they produce 42% less yields than before.


now, what if the %-bonuses/maluses from happiness scaled with city amount, instead of being linear... if thats possible at all?
some extreme examples:
in a 3 city empire, a change of +-10 happiness is rare, but because of the low amount of cities, it would have a big % impact.
meanwhile, in a 30 city empire, a change of +-10 happiness happens like every turn, but since the bonuses/maluses are reduced due to the high number of cities, the % impact is low. But if the happiness changes by +-100, the % impact is big again.

of course the numbers need to be crunched, but this would likely solve the problem, except for the remaining problem of "cities flip at -20" which is a stupid thing (and imho should be a modmod) anyway. oh, and players would need to evaluate happiness numbers according to their empire size.
 
that could indeed make the drops less steep.
for example: i get a drop from 20 happiness to -30. that's like if i had a productivity mod from 120% drop down to 70%, that's almost halving the productivity. so it's no wonder the cities are unhappy, if they produce 42% less yields than before.


now, what if the %-bonuses/maluses from happiness scaled with city amount, instead of being linear... if thats possible at all?
some extreme examples:
in a 3 city empire, a change of +-10 happiness is rare, but because of the low amount of cities, it would have a big % impact.
meanwhile, in a 30 city empire, a change of +-10 happiness happens like every turn, but since the bonuses/maluses are reduced due to the high number of cities, the % impact is low. But if the happiness changes by +-100, the % impact is big again.

of course the numbers need to be crunched, but this would likely solve the problem, except for the remaining problem of "cities flip at -20" which is a stupid thing (and imho should be a modmod) anyway. oh, and players would need to evaluate happiness numbers according to their empire size.
I think this is a much much better solution than the GAP buffer. Too much have to be balanced again and if new or moderate player will understand this mechanic is questionable. If we cant fix the happiness for tall and wide empires, the influnce by happiness could be based around city number (or population?).
Wide empires suffer the most by happiness jumps, but also have the greatest ability to gain happiness sources. If for example the revolt mechanic need more unhappiness to be triggered, cause you have more cities, this would create a growing buffer, targeting the center problem.
 
that could indeed make the drops less steep.
for example: i get a drop from 20 happiness to -30. that's like if i had a productivity mod from 120% drop down to 70%, that's almost halving the productivity. so it's no wonder the cities are unhappy, if they produce 42% less yields than before.


now, what if the %-bonuses/maluses from happiness scaled with city amount, instead of being linear... if thats possible at all?
some extreme examples:
in a 3 city empire, a change of +-10 happiness is rare, but because of the low amount of cities, it would have a big % impact.
meanwhile, in a 30 city empire, a change of +-10 happiness happens like every turn, but since the bonuses/maluses are reduced due to the high number of cities, the % impact is low. But if the happiness changes by +-100, the % impact is big again.

of course the numbers need to be crunched, but this would likely solve the problem, except for the remaining problem of "cities flip at -20" which is a stupid thing (and imho should be a modmod) anyway. oh, and players would need to evaluate happiness numbers according to their empire size.
I think the happiness increase/decrease in yields is capped at +10%/-10%, so worst case scenario you are losing that 20%, problem being losing this 20% will likely put you in a worse situation than before (famous death spiral).
I don't understand the proposal though, you would get more happiness yields if you were taller, wider? I think in both cases this could be solved by prioritizing the right techs/limiting yourself when you know the crunches are coming (my experience is the jump to industrial is the deadliest, as I will probably go for scientific theory to get zoos+public schools, and then you need to fight off distress).

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Wide empires suffer the most by happiness jumps, but also have the greatest ability to gain happiness sources. If for example the revolt mechanic need more unhappiness to be triggered, cause you have more cities, this would create a growing buffer, targeting the center problem.
While wide empires suffer the most from the jumps, it just means you can't overexpand and grow at the same time (this is important) until you get those key happiness policies (most of them time locked behind ideologies or 3rd tree policies).
Wide empires benefit the most from happiness policies, see policies like enlightenment, Martial law, Entrepreneurship,Nobility, Discipline VS Exchange Markets and Refinement favoring tall more.
Then you have ideologies, which I find extremely benefitial for wide empires (once you get 2-3 policies in I find it honestly impossible to dip into negative values), but of course these are always offline for industrial/modern crunches (maybe china can get some policies in by modern).
My belief is wide empires don't need an extra buffer, but need to be mindful of how much the expand and grow your later cities (this is specialy true for cities you capture, which unless you are rome tend to have poor infrastructure for the population they have), it is important to control yourself and build your key buildings asap (universities if you went rationalism, constabularies for imperialism)
 
I think the happiness increase/decrease in yields is capped at +10%/-10%, so worst case scenario you are losing that 20%, problem being losing this 20% will likely put you in a worse situation than before (famous death spiral).
+10%/-20% is the real cap.
If you consider "+10%" as the normal situation, it leads to a relative loss of 27% of yields when you are at "-20%".
 
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