New Chassis idea

[Duneflower]

I'm beginning to think that Foils and Cruisers really show up a bit too early in the tech-tree. Y'all may not agree and I may not even remain with that opinion, but just in case it does stick, I came up with the following solution:

Move Foils up where Cruisers are now
Move Cruisers up to something midgame-ish
Add a new chassis where Foils are now: Hovercraft (I'm tempted to have its official name be Surface Effect Vehicle or SEV, an homage to the Ground Effect Vehicles of Ogre fame)

Hovercraft would be speed 1 so they don't supplant Speeders, could traverse both land and water (though maybe not extremes like jungle, rocky terrain, or possibly fungus) and would play a little combat-bonus rock-paper-scissors with Speeders and Infantry along the lines of "Hovers trash Speeders, Speeders trash Infantry, and Infantry trash Hovers" (not necessarily in that arrangement; that's just an example).

*runs it up the flagpole*

 

[Anon Zytose]

A unit chassis with the name Hovercraft is already present. I think I'd give the units you're proposing a different name, like Amphibian.

I have thought of the concept of an amphibious chassis before. It probably would've been much higher in the tech tree, though: Nanominiaturization. It would be cool if terraformers that adopt this chassis could finally move terrain elevation past sea level at this point. Perhaps they'd have to get the extra ground from somewhere else like an adjacent tile.

 

[Duneflower]

I think you're thinking of Hovertanks, Anon, which actually do show up at Nanomin. For Hovercraft/SEVs, I'm just thinking of an upgraded version of a vehicle in use as we speak; it's primarily used in coastal operations and wetlands, but can be used anywhere the terrain isn't too harsh.

 

[Wodan]

If you think they show up too early, why replace them with another unit which accomplishes the same game function?

Wodan

 

[Duneflower]

They don't accomplish the same function. Foils are pure-water units that move 4/turn; SEVs only move 1/turn, but can traverse either land or water. Very different roles; in fact, that's why I place them at those techs: SEVs provide awesome flexibility by being able strike from almost anywhere (one might call them the spiritual forerunners to Gravships); Foils, while not as flexible in their options, are much better at taking initiative through fast, sudden strikes while the opponent's not looking their way.

EDIT: Upon further research, while I still wanna do something like this, hovercraft aren't the way to do it. Any suggestions?

 

[Wodan]

So, from what you're saying, SEVs are actually more versatile. Thus, they accomplish more game functions than foils do. They are, however, slower, which says something about their tactical uses more so than their game function.

Anyway, it sesms okay to move foils (and cruisers) back, but I'm still curious about the reason for SEVs. Is the goal here one of story (realism) or gameplay?

Wodan

 

[Duneflower]

So, from what you're saying, SEVs are actually more versatile. Thus, they accomplish more game functions than foils do. They are, however, slower, which says something about their tactical uses more so than their game function.

Urrrr...what's the difference between "game function" and "tactical usage"?

Anyway, it sesms okay to move foils (and cruisers) back, but I'm still curious about the reason for SEVs. Is the goal here one of story (realism) or gameplay?

Mmmm....a little of both, really. Or, based on the way you put the question, I supposed I'd have to say story/realism; putting a different chassis there is a function of gameplay, but the specific chassis is a nod to the storyline.

 

[Maniac]

Why do you feel foils show up too early?

 

[Duneflower]

It seems somewhat unbalancing to me to be able to create a unit that powerful, that fast, that early in the game.

 

[Maniac]

I'm not sure what you mean with powerful. Do you mean strength-wise? In that case I don't understand, as that early the only thing foils can fight are other foils, and strength is determined by the weapon.

As for their speed, not sure about that. What unbalancing effect do you think their current speed of 4 has? (Same speed of rovers on road for instance) Is the map explored too fast? Or something else?
If they were too fast, wouldn't it be better though to reduce their movement to three (wouldn't create big problems as far as I can see at the moment) instead of creating a new chassis which overlaps with other chassis' functions?

 

[The_Reckoning]

I do like the idea of a move-1 early game unit for moving things to small islands, before foils, which could come later.

A former which can go on coastal and land tiles? For early game coast/archi starts, before sea formers?

 

[Duneflower]

I'm not sure what you mean with powerful. Do you mean strength-wise? In that case I don't understand, as that early the only thing foils can fight are other foils, and strength is determined by the weapon.[/quote
That is what I mean, and you're forgetting the fact that all naval units have built-in Heavy Artillery; so while they can't out-and-out kill land units (except those defending sea-bases, which is another part of the issue), they can damage them.

As for their speed, not sure about that. What unbalancing effect do you think their current speed of 4 has? (Same speed of rovers on road for instance) Is the map explored too fast? Or something else?
If they were too fast, wouldn't it be better though to reduce their movement to three (wouldn't create big problems as far as I can see at the moment) instead of creating a new chassis which overlaps with other chassis' functions?

That too, and reducing it to 3 IMO wouldn't be sufficient - look at BtS: Chariots are exactly analogous to early Speeders (though they require a resource at a different tech), and the first M3 naval unit is the Caravel, clear up at Optics; that's considerably higher-tech than DocFlex, and I like that balance.

Ooh, I just had another idea for the chassis: Full Throttle had an item called an "automotive hoverlift", which was basically a fan or rotor with enough oomph to lift a vehicle a few inches off the ground so it could be propelled without worrying about friction, though sometimes more than one was needed depending on the size of the vehicle. Perhaps the new chassis could work on that principle?

 

[The_Reckoning]

Maybe they could start off at movement 1/2 and then gain speed as new techs are discovered?

I'm not sure if that's possible with the code, bu the XML does allow for resources etc. to be boosted with certain techs, so ??? [E: DUH refridgeration]

 

[Maniac]

That is what I mean, and you're forgetting the fact that all naval units have built-in Heavy Artillery; so while they can't out-and-out kill land units (except those defending sea-bases, which is another part of the issue), they can damage them.

In Planetfall only missile cruisers and submarines can do ranged strikes.

That too, and reducing it to 3 IMO wouldn't be sufficient - look at BtS: Chariots are exactly analogous to early Speeders (though they require a resource at a different tech), and the first M3 naval unit is the Caravel, clear up at Optics; that's considerably higher-tech than DocFlex, and I like that balance.

Personally I do not consider default Civ4's early game a good example of fun navies. The result of their low movement is that navies are useless in the early game. They're only useful for exploring the seas and transporting some troops, because you have no other choice than those silly 2-move galleys. I'd prefer navies to have a military value, and have the advantages of Flexibility and Initiative over a pure landbased army. For that they need a decent movement speed.

There's also another reason. Sea colony pods and sea formers need to have a decent movement speed. The reason is the same why settlers and workers were given two movement points in Civ4. Settlers (and sea colony pods) should be able to move to their intended base site in a reasonably fast time. If they can't, you'll get the situation like in SMAC where the goal was not to found a base at some good spot, but to found the base as quickly as possible, to prevent loss of comparative turn advantage by the CP wandering around instead of bringing in resources. Worker and aquaformer movement speed should be high enough, to avoid rewarding anal micromanagement, to avoid the time spent moving between plots-to-be-improved having a significant effect on your worker efficiency. Therefore I think sea CPs and aquaformers should definitely have four movement points. And since these non-military units should not be the fastest explorers, and since there should be a military unit which can move at the same speed of sea CPs to escort them, this means foils should also have at least four movement points.

I think it would probably be an improvement though if early game naval exploration was slowed down a little. So I think I'll let foils and aquaformers start with three movement points, but let the tech Ocean Colonization (which enables sea colony pods) give all naval units +1 movement. Sounds like a cool effect for that tech. (though it does kinda create problems with IoD movement speed )

 

[Duneflower]

Hmmmm...okay, yeah, I see your point about 'former/pod movement. I don't really agree with your sentiment on early navies, but I think the noncom-unit consideration kinda over-rules that.

How about this: Bump the Pressure Dome facility up a tech-level or two and move the "Fuel Nanocells" SA down with it, renamed as something like "Pressure Turbine" and unavailable to land units, that increases movement by the following formula: m' = (8+3r)m/9. [r is Reactor value] This means that (rounding as appropriate) with this ability, your Foils would move 4/5/6/7 and your Cruisers 6/8/9/11. I'm not sure how you're handling air units, but I'd bet that the formula would produce acceptable increases in speed for them as well.

Have Isles (maybe only wild ones?) start with this, problem solved. Or alternatively, have it be automatic upon attaining, say, Mature Boil status; that way Human-bred Isles could start with it, but only with a sufficient combination of Planet rating and breeding-facilities. Also makes early wild Isles slightly less threatening - you could also ramp up the relative threat-value of Sealurks to early shipping by giving it to them out of the box.

In Planetfall only missile cruisers and submarines can do ranged strikes.

Why???

 

[The_Reckoning]

I like those ideas, Duneflower.

 

[The Beard]

I think it is important for there to be foils available fairly early in-game, if not simply for the following fact:

We just traveled four light years from our home planet, and therefore have mastered all aspects of spaceflight (even though we forgot it upon landing). I don't think it would be that hard to figure out how to use a boat again, especially since most of the materials salvaged from the Unity would be geared toward protecting humans from hostile atmospheric environments (as I doubt that scientists back Earthside would have been able to measure the content of the atmosphere of Chiron for harmful chemicals before launching the Unity--such high resolution scans of a light-years away object are simply not possible now or then (about 2060)).

Also, it is easier to re-invent the boat than it is to get all of that other stuff in line. As long as there is plenty of danger in the seas (Planet's xenofungus may be corrosive to boat hulls), I think balance can be maintained. I do like the idea of reactors improving the range of boats as well as aircraft.

 

[The_Reckoning]

I have often been asked: if we have traveled between the stars,
why can we not launch the simplest of orbital probes? These fools
fail to understand the difficulty of finding the appropriate
materials on this Planet, of developing adequate power supplies,
and creating the infrastructure necessary to support such an
effort. In short, we have struggled under the limitations of a
colonial society on a virgin planet. Until now.

Same goes for boats.

 

[Anon Zytose]

I have often been asked: if we have traveled between the stars,
why can we not launch the simplest of orbital probes? These fools
fail to understand the difficulty of finding the appropriate
materials on this Planet, of developing adequate power supplies,
and creating the infrastructure necessary to support such an
effort. In short, we have struggled under the limitations of a
colonial society on a virgin planet. Until now.

Same goes for boats.

...except with boats you can be a lot more flexible with what the material's made of and what causes it to move. If the first boats can't be anything else, they could still be, say, metal sailships or something. In any case, if a faction has the power necessary to make and use rover units, it shouldn't be all that hard to provide that power to a vessel that floats on water. Unless the faction is landlocked or something.

 

[The Beard]

Oh, no, I understand the reasons for why we cannot build spaceships again, launch orbital probes, create missiles, and whatnot. The problem I have is that the sophistication of equipment needed to build and maintain rovers isn't necessarily of a lower or higher level than the equipment needed to maintain the first boats. Certainly the first foils wouldn't have the most sophisticated navigation systems and whatnot, but the materials which would be making the first rovers would most likely be reclaimed bits of the Unity, and the same would go for boats. The hulls would be the most difficult to produce, but people would have bits of metal lying around to be reclaimed from parts of their own colony to tide them over until they get all their mining lasers and whatnot working again. At that point, more sophisticated things could be created, such as mines and whatnot.

The main reason for a lack of boats in the beginning, from my point of view, is this:

If we just landed on an alien planet, and can barely keep ourselves alive within our own colonies, why are we wasting our time with boats when we should be figuring out how to gain nutrients from the land? Kelp farming and whatnot would be a secondary priority. Once we have the land figured out, the sea is for the taking. However, for the first chunk of our time on Planet, boats aren't really that useful. So if we are to put a limitation on the production of anything, I would put Sea colony pods and Sea formers for much later, but allow for little exploration boats to go along the coastlines. And as far as I understand it, that is how it is currently implemented (with the tech: Sea Colonization). I wouldn't be opposed to Civ-style limitations on going too far out to sea, as it is likely we could run out of fuel, or run into some nasty storms out there.