New Civ suggestions

[Spearthrower]

Here is the reason why this stinks to high heaven - taken from that very thread

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=144016, please read bottom. I short tell you why !!. beacuse Poland is the most powerful history in world, the counry betwen Germany and Russia. Poland is ****ry who stop Islamic revolution in XVII centry and stop Communism in 1920. Poland is county , whom stay at face with Hitler. In POland born very Big men in Worlds History, and POland very many changes history of world !!!

What a load of ****.

Nationalist rubbish.

Every country could lay claim to being the "best", most powerful, having important leaders and having changed the history of the world..... just as long as they ignore the perspective of the history of the rest of the world and listen to the nationalist propaganda they are fed.

LDeska, you shouldnt be casting stones by linking that video on Americans when it is clear that people from your own country - the very ones you are espousing by supporting that thread, are also terminally ignorant of world history and no nothing beyond the borders of their own nation.

This kind of **** has no place in a game.

 

[LuKo]

Only you aren't saying rubbish and you are using many proofs. And world was flat because most of people thought that it is flat. When Magellan circumnavigated Earth it became round.

 

[Spearthrower]

But I am not trying to "prove" that my country is greater LuKo - mostly because that would also be a load of rubbish too. My country of birth is the United Kingdom - we study about a massive variety of other histories from all around the World. I have never once been taught that Britain was in any way better than other countries. Naturally, there was a time when Britain's military power was dominant, but I dont consider that to be the be all and end all of judging "best" country - it's so ignorant!

You just cant expect people to believe this claptrap, all it can do is cause friction.

In all honesty, this kind of belief is part of Thai culture too. They are quite poorly educated here and they genuinely believe that Thai history is well known throughout the world, that people respect Thais for having never been occupied (incidentally a total lie) and that, just as an example, people will follow the words of their King.

Remarkably similar to the drivel churned out by the rampant nationalists in that thread. Of course they are neglecting the absurd levels of poverty in Polish history, the complete lack of infrastructure, the fact that Poland persisted in a feudal system well into the modern world, the fact that it was continuously beaten by a variety of neighbouring nations, that it has spent most of its existence occupied. Their "proof" is that a couple of battles won a few centuries ago make them a nation worth respecting and one that has been ignominously ignored. It would be laughable if it wasn't so incredibly ugly.

It's so bigoted and close-minded, there are no "proofs" either to support it or counter it.... it's just absurd. I'm afraid that all it actually seems to indicate is that Poland has a very poor education system; hardly a supporting element in the drive to prove its pole position.

 

[LuKo]

In this discussion I wanted you only to say, which arguments that I posted or are under the petition aren't fair. And which not included in mod Asian or African nation (or Mali ]:-> ) have more history related arguments.

 

[Spearthrower]

No LuKo, I am sorry but I dont support your nationalist drivel. You just want to show that Poland is "better" than Mali or an African nation.

As far as I am concerned, there's simply no such reckoning - there is NO scale where you can judge the complete quality of a country to decide who is "best".

It's a real shame that Poland is producing these little nationalists running round giving their country a bad name.

 

[LuKo]

Imagine that for some reason France wouldn't be included in cIV. Of course you would call people who would want France in Warlords "nationalists"? (I know that Poland isn't as important as France. It was just an example).

 

[Spearthrower]

If they started spouting a load of lies to support the reasons for inclusion, if they ignored the reality of their place in world affairs instead adopting a highly erroneous position based upon their glory - then yes I would. Of course, France is globally acknowledged as being a driving force, not just in Europe but throughout around the globe - not just for a century or so, but for hundreds of years.

Don't get me wrong, as you have read before, I do have more than passing knowledge of Polish history, but a lot of the "evidence" posited in that thread is either highly biased to such a degree that it distorts reality or is just an outright lie.

And I ask you again..... would this not be an absurdity? Having nationalities demanding their country's inclusion - where does it stop? Doesnt every country have the right then to say that their nation has done special and unique things in the world and that they have a right to be included?

The simple fact is: Poland is included - it's a mod, you download it, fire up your game and play as Poland - and it's very nicely done too, so I dont even see what the point is here. You've got your cake and you can eat it.

Even if Firaxis add 10 new civs, I could honestly justify 10 civs other than Poland. One of the Polish posters there said that he considered Poland to be about "40th" in importance in the World - well, we are still far away from 40 civs in the game yet and there are some real shakers and movers still not included. There are also lots of unique civilisations - ones who stand for an as yet unrepresented area (like SE Asia) which would be far more important to ensure the concept of cultural diversity.

 

[LuKo]

Can't you say which ""evidence" posited in that thread is either highly biased to such a degree that it distorts reality or is just an outright lie"?

The simple fact is: Poland is included - it's a mod, you download it, fire up your game and play as Poland - and it's very nicely done too, so I dont even see what the point is here. You've got your cake and you can eat it.

I played cIV game where was Poland once. I was playing as a Romans I think that Poland can be added in future version of civ (it would be nice) but it isn't very important for me. In my personal rating RFCW is the best mod (second is WW2 1939 beta ) and here Poland (IMHO) is one of the most important civs to add (there isn't enough place in Europe for civs like Portugal or Sweden).

BTW: I'm not an nationalist. I just love Europe, Northern Africa and Near East. I don't like other places and hate, Hate, HATE Aztecs (I'm not a racist or smth like that too- I like people from Africa, Pakistan, India, etc.- I just don't like (history of) their countries ).

 

[Spearthrower]

Depending on the focus and scope of the mod, I would agree that in a WW2 1939 mod, then Poland should be included.

It's a mod. The mod designer will add a Poland civ. There's no onus on Firaxis to provide the resource for every single possible mod setting.

This certainly has very little bearing on RFC where the idea is to track human civilisation across the globe throughout human history. In such a scope, Poland's importance dwindles into the myriad of other lights representing our world's nations. It's impact on world history is minimal and honed into a small period of time. It's immediate area has a variety of competing civs, where in other parts of the world only one stood dominant for countless ages.

 

[fearuin]

And I ask you again..... would this not be an absurdity? Having nationalities demanding their country's inclusion - where does it stop? Doesnt every country have the right then to say that their nation has done special and unique things in the world and that they have a right to be included?

The simple fact is: Poland is included - it's a mod, you download it, fire up your game and play as Poland - and it's very nicely done too, so I dont even see what the point is here. You've got your cake and you can eat it.

Even if Firaxis add 10 new civs, I could honestly justify 10 civs other than Poland. One of the Polish posters there said that he considered Poland to be about "40th" in importance in the World - well, we are still far away from 40 civs in the game yet and there are some real shakers and movers still not included. There are also lots of unique civilisations - ones who stand for an as yet unrepresented area (like SE Asia) which would be far more important to ensure the concept of cultural diversity.

I agree with Spearthrower. Stop this nationalistic chat. It makes the discussion we just started for fun in a discussion of "how much more important my country is than yours". However, as closer than him to Poland (as citizen of the European Union, like Polish) I have a closer perspective to what's happening with Polish. I want to say something to you, just to make you see the point of view of the other European countries about what's happening in Poland.

Poland has had a good time since they have abandoned communism. True. But in the last years, the right-wing movement that rules the country has started to denigrate any foreigner influence, and glorify their own nation. OK, this is comprehensible. But is wrong. and I I'll make you see why, with a experience I've had at my College, with Polish exchange students. I have seen them not stoping to chat how wonderful their country is and how pitiful the others are, even when that country is actually hosting you. That's not a good idea, and it is easily comprehensible that, after two years receiving Polish people in our College, now nobody wants to see them around, treat them bad, paint communist signs in their doors, etc. Obviously this forum it's not a physical place, but in this sense it actuates like that. You're creating a bad climate, which will probably end with bad consequences for you, such as prejudice, sarcasm, or even worst: direct insults. I -and I guess, everybody- don't want this climate neither in my college, or in the forum of the best webpage of my favourite game. So, please, please, stop. I don't say you to stop believing your country it's the better on the world. Just to stop using any chance you have to remind it to everybody.

That's all for the tolerance lesson. Please forgive me if I have been a little rude, but in our country we had 40 years of centralist nationalistic opression (specially to the other small, poor, and historically unsignificant nations of this country, one of then I have been born), plus another 40 of nationalistic terrorism of such little nations, which haven't ended today, so me -and most non-nationalistic Spanish- are much concerned about this issue.

Back to the topic, the Portugal and Dutch codelines may come because me, and some other people, (can't tell who, and even can't tell if the idea was mine, but I have always been the most persistent defender of it) reach to an agreement with Rhye to add these civs IF they were added to Warlords. It didn't happened, but maybe in that period, Rhye decided to go forward than Firaxis to save later work.

 

[Spearthrower]

Just so you know Fearuin, I am actually from Europe and have spent most of my life there!

I have seen the above happen in a number of countries I've travelled in and I am afraid that your summary is rather true. It's the ongoing rewriting of history to put yourself into a better light. It's only natural in some respects as everyone wants to feel proud of where they come from, but it is something that should be kept to yourself and not pushed at others or used as a tool to reflect on other nationalities - that's where it goes beyond ignorance and into realms of danger - these very words have been used by tyrants throughout history to justify their intolerance and persection of non-nationals. Poland's history should have shown it's people about this and they should know better.

 

[Edungeon]

Back to the topic, the Portugal and Dutch codelines may come because me, and some other people, (can't tell who, and even can't tell if the idea was mine, but I have always been the most persistent defender of it) reach to an agreement with Rhye to add these civs IF they were added to Warlords. It didn't happened, but maybe in that period, Rhye decided to go forward than Firaxis to save later work.

Ah okay, cool. I will try to see if the codes are in an early phase or are almost finished. With a little luck and studing phyton, maybe, i could try to make a mod (with problaby Expanded Iberia just to fit 2 Portuguese cities, this is all they need.

Well, i will look the python and try to discover anything.

 

[LuKo]

In such a scope, Poland's importance dwindles into the myriad of other lights representing our world's nations.

Nations like: ...

I'm not proud because I'm from Poland. But how you wanna discuss about new nations to add without a "how much more important my country is than yours"?

 

[kairob]

In such a scope, Poland's importance dwindles into the myriad of other lights representing our world's nations.
Nations like: ...

The USA
Rome
Byzantium
Greece
Ottoman Empire
Russia
Germany
France
Britain
Egypt
Babilonia
Sumaria
Persia
The Mughals
The Mongols
The Selujic Turks
Arabia
Japan
Macedonia
Carthage
Spain
Portugal
Denmark
The Holy Roman Empire
China
Greece
Italy

 

[LuKo]

And now: which civs from the list can be represented better than are represented now?

 

[kairob]

Quite a lot but the isnt the room for them.
Look LuKo, just drop it yeah?

 

[LuKo]

NO. I have to satisfy Spearthrower

It's a real shame that Poland is producing these little nationalists running round giving their country a bad name.

Most of nations in your list are represented (Greece, Greece, Byzantium and Macedonia are represented by Greece). Poland isn't.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

Notice that he didn't include Poland in the list? Come on...what do you think he's trying to tell you?

 

[Spearthrower]

NO. I have to satisfy Spearthrower

Actually, I wasn't referring to you. Compared to a fair few people in that "Vote for Poland" thread, you're a moderate. They need to wake up and smell the roses.

 

[HulaLoula]

I beg of you.. Please just leave the addition of Poland alone.I dont see any Dutch or Portugeuse overwhelming this thread with their cries of "Why isn't my country represented in your mod?".Luko,I feel you usually have some great input on RFC threads as long as they don't pertain to your undying wish to include Poland in this Mod.I'd like to read some fresh thoughts on new MINOR civs to be added.Personally, I'd like to see a minor civ occupying Malaysian islands or an additional Native American tribe to challenge England,Spain,French in colonizing modern-day Brazil or US west coast(Tlingit would be ideal for west coast of North America ranging from north of Vancouver to encroaching on Aztecs to south) .Just my two cents