New civic system?

[SadoMacho]

Rhye's and fall of civ is the best MOD on earth and it must have a realistic civic sytem. Some civic's in the stanard game aren't realistic. A new sytem could be this:

Goverment
1. Despotisme (no change)
2. Oligarchy (+25%gold, hammers in capital)
tech: monarchy upkeep : low
3. Hereditary Rule (+1 gold from villages, towns,..)
tech: monarchy upkeep : low
4. 1party system (+10% mil. production, +2 from broadcasttower(propaganda), +1 jail)
tech : nationhood upkeep : middle
5. 2party system (+20% warw. hurry with gold)
tech:Constitution upkeep : low
6. multiparty system (+50% Warw, +1health(environmentalism-party), penalty for civ's without)
tech: Democracy upkeep : middle

Social
1.Barbarism no changes
2. Slavery (hurry by sacrifice population, +50% workerspeed, +1 food from plantations, +1 unhappy)
tech : bronzeworking upkeep : middle
3. Serfdom (+1 form castle, +1 from mil unit)
tech : Feudalism upkeep : middle
4. Caste System (1 free specialist per city, unlimited artist, priest, scientist)
tech : code of law upkeep : high
5. Liberalism : (+1 unhappy (poor people), +10% gold, +2 in largest cities
tech : liberalism upkeep : low
6. Socialism : (+100% great people, +10% science)
tech : communism upkeep : middle

Economy
1. Decentralization
2. closed economy : +1 hammer from farm
tech : metal casting upkeep : low
3. Mercantilism : (No foreign trade routes, unlimited mechants)
tech : banking upkeep : middle
4. Free market (+1gold/ spec., +1 trade route, +100% growth for cottage, hamlet, village)
tech : economy upkeep : low
5. state property : +1 food from farm, +1 gold from watermill, windmill, lumbermill)
tech : communism upkeep : high
6. Environmentalism : no change

military

1. Tribal organisation
2. Military Ordnance (+2 XP +1 from walls)
tech : Horseback riding upkeep : middle
3. Vassalage (number of free units, +25% production mil units (only mounted and samurai?, +3 XP)
tech : Feudalism upkeep : high
4. Professional Armies: (+1gold/ mil. unit, -25% Warw, +5 XP)
tech : gunpowder upkeep : low
5. Conscript armies : draft units, +2 XP, number of free untis
tech : Nationalism upkeep : middle
6. War Economy : -50% Warw, +25% production mil. Units, + 3XP, +2 from baracks
tech : assembly line upkeep : high

Religion

1. Nature religion (no state religion)
2. Paganism (+1 from obelisk, no state religion)
tech : mysticism upkeep : high
3. Organized Religion (unlimited priets, missionaries without monstary, +10% culture with state religion)
tech: priethood upkeep : middle
4. Theocracy : (+2XP, -10% science, +1 extra with state religion, +1 unhappy from non state religion, +2 culture from specialists)
tech : Divine right upkeep : high
5. Ateism : (+1 unhappy from non state religion, +10% science, +3 science from specialist, +1 from colloseum, no state religion)
tech : scientific methode upkeep : middle
6. Free religion : +1 from religions, +1 from colloseum, no state religion)
tech: liberalism upkeep : low

examples from reallity :

Roman republiek: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2
soviet union: 4, 6,5,4,5
USA (now): 5,5,4,4,6(or 4?)
mideviel Europe : 3, 3, 2,3, 3 or 4
Sweden (now): 6,6,4 (or6), 5(or4),6
UK (WWI) 5, 5, 4, 5, 6
France (Louis XIV) : 3, 3, 3, 4, 3

Perhaps it needs some more balancing, but this is just an idea.
An other small idea : conquistadors that can be transported by Caravel and even can pass jungle, so Spain can attack the Aztecs before astronomy is discovered.

 

[McA123]

The conquistador idea might give Spain an unfair advantage, because it would give them cities in South America/Mexico before anyone else could possibly be colonizing and they could go from there and build settlers in those cities and (possibly) control all of South America/Mexico extremely early.

 

[Elhoim]

The conquistador idea might give Spain an unfair advantage, because it would give them cities in South America/Mexico before anyone else could possibly be colonizing and they could go from there and build settlers in those cities and (possibly) control all of South America/Mexico extremely early.

Well, that isn´t too far fetched. Check the map below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Spanish_Empire.png

 

[McA123]

Well, yes, it may be true that they conquered it extremely early (or it may well not, I can't say I'm a history buff), but you have to choose how far you're going to carry following history, and I think that that is going too far. It would give Spain an unfair advantage. Spain already has the potential to (and usually does) become one of the super nations of the game. If you're going to do that, then why not automatically give astronomy to the Brits at a certain year so that they can hurry up and colonize America? Or why not set it so that religions are ALWAYS founded in their historical city, no matter what? You have to draw the line somewheres. Don't get me wrong, I think the best part of this game is how historical it is, but, again, you HAVE to draw the line somewheres.

 

[Elhoim]

Apart from that, I think that Explorers should be changed to be used as an attack unit against barbarians, as they are useless to pick those goody huts that are protected by barbs...

 

[Rhye]

conquistadors already can pass through jungle and marsh.
Now they'll be transported by caravels too

 

[Surtur]

I liked the idea that caravels can't move on ocean squares before Astronomy. Will this be implemented?

 

[Elhoim]

I liked the idea that caravels can't move on ocean squares before Astronomy. Will this be implemented?

I agree this would be very nice indeed...

conquistadors already can pass through jungle and marsh.
Now they'll be transported by caravels too

Great! I think that to help the other civs, explorers should have the ability to attack, so they can send attack units to the new world also...

 

[McA123]

I can see no reason why conquistadors shouldn't be able to be transported with caravels, so long as the other colonial nations get some sort of boost somehow too. it just doesn't seem fair to give Spain an advantage over England and France in this area to me.

 

[SadoMacho]

In CIV III conquestadors were explores that could attack.

In real life, spain's nobility gave the land they owned to the first born son, the others only got money. They formed a well armed army that reconquered spain to get themsllf some land. America was discovered around the time spain's reconquista was completed. The noblemen went to the new world to get new land as soon as the could to get some land for the conquista, hence they were conquistadores. England and Fance came much later to america because america (exeption : brazil) was declared spanish land by the Pope.

 

[McA123]

Still, it may be perfectly historical (or it may not, I'm not to say), but it skews the game balance, in my opinion. In some other thread, someone said something along the lines of:

The problem is Completely Historical = Not Fun

or something like that. It's true. If we follow history EXACTLY and do all these things to make certain nations better than other in ways that give them big advantages, there goes game balance. Who wants to play a game where Spain ALWAYS gets all of South America? Or where the Aztecs/Incans ALWAYS die? Or how about where the Chinese ALWAYS fall to the Mongols? These things may have happened historically, but that doesn't mean they should happen every game. As far as I'm concerned, Game Balance > History. Spain already usually becomes one of the best civs in the game. Giving them another bonus without giving something else to some other nations just puts them further ahead. I have no problem with conquistadors riding caravels so long as some other nations (France, England e.g) get some other sort of bonus in the way of colonizing.

 

[Elhoim]

While I agree with giving some bonus to the other civs, I do not disagree with historical reflection. There lies the challenge of the mod, that you, the human player, not the AI, can defy history. Let Spain conquer America if let alone, but your intervention with, let´s say England, can be the power that changes history. Even tough against stacked odds, like the conqueror feature, you should find a way to remake history and claim the Americas for England. Or as Rome, to grow an empire that rivals the real one, and then try to prevent it´s fall. Or as the chinese, succesfully stoping the mongolians on their tracks. That´s the challenge and the beauty of the mod. If you just want randomness, play an Earth map with correct starting locations...

 

[Blasphemous]

Elhoim, you leave further arguments unnecessary. Well said.

 

[Elhoim]

Elhoim, you leave further arguments unnecessary. Well said.

Thank you, Blas!

 

[dh_epic]

My opinion is closer to that of McA123, although I don't think we're all miles apart. We all agree that realism is important, we just disagree about how much wiggle room the player should have. I'd always prefer to err on the side of more wiggle room.

I think Spain is already quite powerful. Any more powerful, and you no longer have a game. You have a simulation. Playing as Spain becomes a joke, and playing as anyone else becomes a pain in the ***.

 

[McA123]

Yeah, we don't have extremely different views on the matter. I don't think the conquistador thing will make a HUGE difference, but even small things can add up. I still maintain that something should be done for some other nations (even if it is just a small thing) if Spain is to recieve a bonus.

 

[Elhoim]

I agree. I think that explorers should be able to attack, so all nations can have an attacking unit on caravels. And besides, it would be nice so you can kick those barbs out of the goody huts!

 

[Rhye]

Or where the Aztecs/Incans ALWAYS die?

They have NEVER died so far. In no game since v010.

Let's see if with this Conquistador tweak + updated AIWars maps the situation changes

 

[Elhoim]

They have NEVER died so far. In no game since v010.

Quoted for thruth!

 

[McA123]

Mmm, come to think of it, I think I'd prefer a game where the Aztecs and Incans always die. Heh.