new civilization: Serbia

[Shqype]

After 1912 great powers gave to Albania its today territory, and they didnt doubled it, but enlarged it innumerrable times, since Albania didnt have territory of its own before 1912, so looking from that point Albania was great powers little brother.

False. Albania did have territory of its own before 1912. But between that time and the end of Gjergj Kastrioti's rebellion it was under the Ottoman Empire. Albania was finally conquered by 1480, but began regaining its territories from the Ottomans in 1911. During that time Albanian land was under Turkish control, which allows for the main basis of Serbian claim to Albanian land: it allows you to claim that Albanian land, in recent history, was not under an internationally recognized Albanian state.

+Skadar would have been Serbian if Austria-Hungary didnt get totally envolved, and threaten Serbia a war if they dont leave Skadar in 1912.

Shkodra would never have been Serbian, it never was and never will be Serbian. Thank God for that. Serbia got too greedy after all the new land it recieved and tried to take more of northern Albania, including Shkodra. The Albanians under Prek Cali defeated the invading Serbian armies and maintained that part of his region in the borders that Europe set.

But were they ever part of a independent Albania? Most of the cities on the list were at some point under a independent Serbian nation.

Yes, some of those cities were part of an independent Albania, numerous times. But those times are wedged between foreign invasions. Albanians have survived 33 armed invasions since antinquity, some of those lasting for centuries, while others were shortlived (like Stefan Dushan's Balkanic Empire). Before the Ottoman occupation, Albanian cities were free and independent under the leadership of Gjergj Kastrioti, the Defender of the Christian faith, which was the main (and most successful) opposition to Ottoman rule in European history.

I don't deny that most of those cities on the list are Serbian. That's a fact. But the Albanian cities on the list that I have pointed out are not. Serbs were lucky enough to get Europe to include them in their state.

 

[serb_guy]

Shkodra would never have been Serbian, it never was and never will be Serbian.

sorry, but who built Skadar? king Vukashin and despot Ugljesha Mrnjavcevic...
btw, I haven't played it yet, cuz I'm waiting for my copy of the game.

 

[serb_guy]

this is according to a epic poem, though

 

[Velja]

False. Albania did have territory of its own before 1912. But between that time and the end of Gjergj Kastrioti's rebellion it was under the Ottoman Empire. Albania was finally conquered by 1480, but began regaining its territories from the Ottomans in 1911. During that time Albanian land was under Turkish control, which allows for the main basis of Serbian claim to Albanian land: it allows you to claim that Albanian land, in recent history, was not under an internationally recognized Albanian state.

False to you. How can you talk about Kastrioti's land and tell it should be the same again. That way, I can say look at Stefan Dusan's Serbia - There is no Albania at all, thats the way map should look today! But you just cant understand how stupid your point of view is.

Shkodra would never have been Serbian, it never was and never will be Serbian. Thank God for that. Serbia got too greedy after all the new land it recieved and tried to take more of northern Albania, including Shkodra. The Albanians under Prek Cali defeated the invading Serbian armies and maintained that part of his region in the borders that Europe set.

False again. Montenegrin army sieged Skadar for long time and couldnt conquer it, but when Serbian army came with cannons Skadar fell to Serbian hands, but, as I already said, Austria was threatening Serbia a war if they dont leave Skadar, so Serbian army retreated.

 

[Velja]

One more thing:

Shkodra would never have been Serbian, it never was and never will be Serbian.

Shkodër


(shk´dr) (KEY) or Scutari (sk´tr) (KEY) , Serbo-Croatian Skadar, anc. Scodra, city (1989 est. pop. 80,200), capital of Shkodër dist., NW Albania, at the outlet of Lake Scutari. It is a market center in a fertile agricultural area that produces a variety of crops. Shkodër is the industrial and cultural center of N Albania and has industries that manufacture cement, textiles, tobacco products, foodstuffs, and metal and leather goods. It is also an important fishing center. An ancient Illyrian capital, Shkodër became (168 B.C.) a Roman colony, passed to Byzantium, and was conquered by the Serbs in the 7th cent. A.D. Until the fall of Serbia in the late 14th cent., Shkodër was the seat of the princes of Zeta (i.e., Montenegro), who pledged it to Venice in return for a subsidy in the war against Turkey. However, it was captured by Sultan Muhammad II in 1479. Shkodër, known under Turkish rule as Iskenderiye, was the seat of a pashalik. The pashas, often chosen from among Montenegrin renegades, fought for centuries against their Albanian neighbors. Montenegrin troops occupied (1913) Shkodër in the Balkan Wars, but the European powers assigned the city to newly independent Albania. There was fighting in the city during World War I. Shkodër was made a Roman Catholic archdiocese in 1867. The city has a large bazaar and is dominated by a citadel built by the Venetians. It has a Catholic cathedral and several mosques.

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05.

 

[Velja]

And another one:

Shkodër


also called Shkodra, Latin Scodra, Italian Scutari, town, northwestern Albania. It lies at the southeast end of Lake Scutari, at a point where the Buenë (Serbo-Croatian: Bojana) River, one of Albania's two navigable streams, flows out of the lake toward the Adriatic Sea. Situated at the edge of a wide plain surrounded by high mountains, the city is overlooked on the west by the peak of Tarabosh. Shkodër is dominated on the south by the now-isolated citadel of Rozafat, past which the Kiri River flows into the Buenë. Since 1900 the town has spread northeastward, away from its bazaar, which was once important because of its location at the convergence of trade routes from the Danube River and the Aegean Sea.

Shkodër is the most historic town in Albania. The oldest wall of the Shkodër castle dates from the first millennium BC. The Roman historian Livy cited the town as the capital of the Illyrian king Gentius, who surrendered to the Romans in 168 BC. The town was subsequently held by the Byzantines, Bulgars, Serbs, and Turks, again by Illyrians, and by the Serbian Balša family, who sold it to Venice in 1396. It was a stronghold of the Albanian national hero, Skanderbeg, in the 15th century. The Turks mounted determined sieges of Shkodër in 1473 and 1479, and in the latter year Venice ceded the town and its fortress to Turkey. Shkodër was virtually independent after 1760, when the Bushati family took control; but in 1831 the Turks reasserted their authority and made it the capital of a province. It became the centre of the Albanian cultural movement after the Albanian League was suppressed in 1881. After being occupied by the Austrians in 1916–18 during World War I, it was taken over by the Allied Powers until it was reunited with free Albania in 1921. Before World War II, Shkodër was the chief Roman Catholic centre of Albania, with a cathedral, a pontifical college, and Franciscan and Jesuit convents, libraries, and publishing houses. It was the home of the poet Migjeni (Milosh Gjergj Nikolla, 1911–38). After 1944 Shkodër resisted the Communist government that had taken control of the country.

Encyclopædia Britannica

 

[Shqype]

sorry, but who built Skadar? king Vukashin and despot Ugljesha Mrnjavcevic...

Shkodra was an Illyrian city, Skodra, built by the ancestors of the Albanians.

Velja:

The House of Vlastimirović was named after Knez Vlastimir who was the great great grandson of the Unknown Archont who led the Serbs to the Balkans from White Serbia (modern day Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine) during the reign of Byzantine emperor Heraclius somewhere between 610 - 641. This establishes the Serbs in the Balkans in the early 600s.

The dawn of the Middle ages saw waves of Slavs arriving. Byzantine Emperor Heraclius described in his De Administrando Imperio how he gave the Serbs the city of Shkodër and the sourrounding territories of during the first half of the 7th century. They soon formed the Principality of Duklja there. Shkodër was a major city of the medieval Slav state.

Shkodër soon became Duklja's capital during the reign of Saint John Vladimir in the second half of the 10th century who defended the city from the menacing Arbanass tribes.

The Serbs were given Shkodra by the Byzantine emperor. The "Arbanass tribes" they 'defended' the city from were the Albanian tribes that surrounded Shkodra and lived there before the Serbs appeared in 7th century and were given the city.

and by the Serbian Balša family

The Balshaj family was an Albanian family that was one of the members of the League of Lezha, the Albanian land barons and tribal chieftains that united under Gjergj Kastrioti to fight the Ottoman Empire for Albanian independence.

This family is claimed as Serbian because they changed their nationality with the politics: They spoke Serbian and considered themselves as Serbs when it suited them most, then changed back to speaking Albanian and being Albanian when it was in their best interest. This activity reflects the nature of the times.

In any case the only Slavs at this Albanian League of Lezha was the Montenegrin Crnojevich family.

False to you. How can you talk about Kastrioti's land and tell it should be the same again. That way, I can say look at Stefan Dusan's Serbia - There is no Albania at all, thats the way map should look today! But you just cant understand how stupid your point of view is.

Stefan Dushan's land was an empire he created through conquest. He conquered cities that weren't his and added them to his empire. It was already established that a conquerer (such as Germany in WWII) does not have legitimate claims to France, a country that it won through war. Similarly, Serbia does not have valid claims to an Albanian city it was given to by Byzantine.

Stefan Dushan was a conqueror, but Gjergj Kastrioti was an Albanian that unified the disunited Albanian tribes. There is a huge difference. Albanians were always divided by their different tribes, so that allowed conquerors to "divide and conquer" them. That's why Albanians have been through 33 armed invasions. Gjergj Kastrioti was the first one to unite them all and speak about a unified Albania under united Albanian land and cities. It says above that the Turks called Shkodra "Iskenderiye." That is after their name for Gjergj Kastrioti, "Iskender Bey."

The Turks cannot say Shkodra is theirs because they held it for 500 years. The Venetians cannot say Shkodra is theirs because it was a Venetian possession for some time. Just like the Serbs cannot say Shkodra is theirs because it was given to them by the Byzantines for hundreds of years. The Albanians can say Shkodra is theirs because they've always inhabited Shkodra and were the ones that settled it before anyone of the aforementioned conquerors even appeared on the scene.

 

[Mr_V]

< sigh >...

 

[serb_guy]

Shkodra was an Illyrian city, Skodra, built by the ancestors of the Albanians.

did you see teh post below? the one with the smiley, like this: ?

 

[CivArmy s. 1994]

I just read and learn about many European nations on my thread, u people r smart

 

[Shqype]

Welcome back CivArmy , we've missed you

 

[CrazyDazyMan]

People, the mod is simply attempting to simulate an empire-medieval at that-and not trying to claim cities as its own. Do not drag your nationalist frevor into this. I am from the balkans too and have lived through all the nationalism that drove us to kill our neighbors so please spare me your hollow ideals and stop argueing about how to spell KOSOVO. Its not in the game, its not in the mod so please spare us. This entire site is full of ethnic bickering that has nothing to do with the game. I came here to get some mods, not listen to Albanian, Croatian or even Serb nationalism. I get enough of all of them at home thank you very much!

 

[CrazyDazyMan]

one more thing:
obrigado civarmy!

no puedo hablar portugeus pero espero que me entiendes en espanol; no les escuchan, esos huevones estan peleando sobre cosas inutiles. Estan mostrando que son fanaticos nacionalistas sin cualquier habilidad para dejar su mierda fuera de ese server. Yo soy serbio y me gusta ese mod mucho, MUITO OBRIGADO!!!

(translation-
thank you civarmy
great mod, I enjoy it a lot, good leader head, etc.)

 

[levellord]

Jeeee-sus!!! Shipika, will you, please, just stop flaming through the forums? I'm so tired of your post, it's just unbelievable. Whatever you have to prove, it is covered with some propaganda materials, not history facts... How do you really know about all this, have you been there ? Man, k00l down, relax. It is not that anybody will belive you, you know? That is why you are writting down all this, to make people belive, right? C,c,c,c... Jesus... So, just relax, calm down, drink glass of water and play some Civ4! Spare us from your opinions, nobody care...

Peace!

your buddy, levellord

 

[Shqype]

I am kindly asking you to refrain from using racial slurs: if you refer to me at all refer to me by my username, Shqype!

I have supported all of my arguments with historical facts. If you choose not to believe them, that is up to you, but for those with clear minds (and no biases) I'm sure they will appreciate the untold story that usually gets drowned out by Serbian propaganda.

Let me be the first to welcome you to the forums, but let me also be the first to advise you that your post was disrespectful. Please observe forum rules if you decide to post here. Thanks.

 

[deo]

Damn this thread is funny, damn also that my keyboard dosn't work, i have to write with the on-sceen kboard .

Hey shqype, i'll reply to you when i get a new kb ok?.

 

[Shqype]

Alright man, do t'merrsh sa ma shpejt

 

[levellord]

@Shqype

OK, I have to copy+paste your nick since I can not remember it, not to mention there is no way I can pronounce it. I'm terribly sorry about that, but, wow, I am deeply amazed how you put my ignorance as a racial slur! Wow, again! Not to mention, all I can see here; only one person is biased here, and I'm not going to say who is it, people just have to do a search on other topics which include serbs there, and bingo.
Hey, thanks for the warm welcome too! Too bad this is my last addressing to you, since you insulted me couple times in your last post and you insulted my folk and country numerous times here and in your other posts. That's it. I wish you all the best, and take care of yourself Shqype!

Regards,

levellord

 

[Corey]

Shqype,as much i try,I can't understand where do you find so much lies.You just try to launch some false "truth" to make people belive that you Albanians are peacefull people,while the truth is quite opposite.Whenever I run to some Albanian on some international forum(like this) he always has comments like
"die serbian guy" "get out of here" and so on.You are not like them but in other way you're the same.I know you want to poeple belive that Kosovo is your's but it isn't.Could you explain how ex-capital city was in Kosovo,why are there large number of Serbian monasteries old for thousand years,we fought with Ottomans on Kosova 1389!!Where where you back then.All Serbian menhud was lost since that battle.Your first appearance on Kosova was when Josip Broz Tito opened borders to your country.You entered Kosovo and started slowely etnic cleaning,until it rised up to terroristic measures.

 

[Shqype]

This is the type of propaganda encompassed by Serbian myth (like the national epic poems of Shkodra being built by Serbs when in fact it was built by Illyrians before Serbs even existed).

As reported by Constantine Porphyrogenitus (Emp. from 913-919), the Slavs Started to come to the Balkans from the Ural and the Caspian Sea during the reign of Emperor Heraclius (610-641). They were often led by nomadic Turks.46 The region, called at that time Illyria, was inhabited by the aborigine population, the Illyrians, the ancestors of the Albanians.

In the 12th century, according to a contemporary chronicler, W. of Tyre, the Serbs were "an uncultured and undisciplined people inhabiting the mountains and the forests" and who "sometimes ...

quit their mountains and forests... to ravage the surrounding countries", (cited by W. Miller, Essays on the Latin Orient, 1921, p. 446).

The Serbs began to gain strength in the 13th century when Stefan Simon Nemanjic - previously Zupan - started using, in 1217, the title of king.49 At that time the Serbs had already taken much land from the Albanians. In 1217, they conquered Peja (Pec) which was to become in 1346 the see of the Serbian Patriarch. The greater part of Kosova, however, was not yet in their power.50 It was afterward that they got hold of it little by little. But the Serbian kingdom, within the short span of its existence was not marked by fixity. Its precarious stability is indicated by a striking array of capitals: Raška, Priština, Belgrade, Kruševac, Smederevo, Belgrade again, Prizren, Banjska, Shkup (Skopje), Prilep, Smederovo, Kruševac again, Kragujevac.51 The names of these short-lived capitals suggest that the Serbs invaded and conquered, but then retreated and lost, because of some kind of opposition that they found. In this regard, it is interesting to note an observation made by V. Cubrilovic in his rather inhumane memorandum:52 "The Albanians are the only people during the last millennium that managed not only to resist the nucleus of our state, but also to harm us". This remark indicates that the Serbs were opposed by the aboriginal population.

When Stefan Dušan was killed in 1355, the Serbian Empire included not merely Kosova; it encompassed practically all of present Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, and part of Hungary. Yet the Empire had no fixity and lasted merely nine years. It had been built up with the help of mercenaries and it disintegrated immediately after Dušan's death because of the heterogeneous elements of which it was composed: Vlachs, Greeks, Albanians, etc.

As for the Beteja e Fush Kosoves 1389, the Battle of Kosova, it was led by Serbs, but fought by a Balkan coalition. The reason the battle was lost because the Lazar Brankovic was a traitor:

True, for instance, the Battle of Kosova, so greatly exalted by the Serbo-Montenegrins since Karadzic's time, was an important and sad event for the Slavs. However, when viewed objectively, one must concede that this battle, as specialist have not failed to remark - was not fought by the Serbs alone, but by a coalition of Balkan nations: Bulgarians, Greeks, Vlachs, and Albanians57 (including 10 000 Croats). As a consequence, these nations should be imparted the merit due to them. Various sources suggest that the most numerous troops were the Albanian and that they were placed in the front rows.57 Besides, the victory of the Turks in that battle is said to have been occasioned by the treason of Lazar Brankovic, Knez Lazar's son-in-law, who deserted to the Turks at the critical point of the battle with a large number of Serbs.58

J.G. von Hahn, who believed in the Illyro-Albanian continuity, had no doubts, when he visited Kosova that the Albanians had been living there since ancient times. He regarded the region of Sitnica as constituting a pure Albanian link between Dardania and Albania.61

As for 17th century, important are, among others, the writings of the Turkish chronicle Evlija Celebi which clearly indicate that prior to the Austro-Turkish Wars the Albanian population was overwhelmingly present in Western Macedonia, in Montenegro and in the Vilayet of Kosova (E. Celebi, Putopis, Sarajevo, 1973, pp. 136-137). Mention should also be made, for the same epoch, of pastoral reports - that of the Papal Envoy, Pietro Massarechi (Mazreku, born in Prizren who succeeded M. Bizzi) dating from 1623 specifies that at that time, the population of Prizren was made up of 12 000 Moslem Albanians, 200 Catholic Albanians and 600 Serbs and that the population of Shkup (Skopje) was also mainly Albanian.100 Likewise, the Austrian documents pertaining to the Austro-Turkish Wars give evidence that the Austrian army was continuously in touch with an Albanian population. These documents refer to Prizren as the Capital of Albania and to Pjeter Bogdani, Archbishop od Shkup, as Archbishop of Albania.101 Various incidents linked to the Austro-Turkish Wars, as related by T. Ippen (in Novibazar und Kossovo,(das Alte Rascien) eine Studie, Vienna, 1892), who used Austrian War documents - as did J. Tomic - make it obvious that in Kosova the Austrian army had to deal with an Albanian population.

Dr. Vaso Cubrilovic, a Serbian, wrote a Memorandum on how to rid Kosova of the Albanians and settle the land with Serbs:

There was some concern that obstacles of international import might arise, but in a memorandum to the Royal Government on March 7, 1937, Dr. Vaso Cubrilovic had this to say:

At a time when Germany can expel tens of thousands of Jews and Russia can shift tens of millions of people from one point of the continent to another, the shifting of few hundred thousand Albanians will not lead to the outbreak of a World War.

The Albanians intended to be expatriated were not to be allowed compensation for their loss of property.

The means that were to be used for this removal are explicitly mentioned by V. Cubrilovic. Below are picked at random and transcribed some recommendations contained in his memorandum:

...agitators to advocate the removal by describing the beauties of the new territories in Turkey; refusal to recognize the old land deeds; ruthless collection of taxes; threats; withdrawal of permits to exercise a profession; dismissal from state, private and communal office; destruction of cemeteries; ill-treatment of clergy. Conflicts between Albanians and Montenegrins should be prepared and encouraged and should be either presented as conflicts between clans or attributed to economical reasons. These will be bloodily suppressed with the most efficacious means. In the colonization process, the role of the police should be of foremost importance; settles should be mostly Montenegrins because they are arrogant and merciless and would drive the Albanians away with their behavior; from the ethnic standpoint, the Macedonians will unite with us only when they enjoy true ethnic support from the Serbian motherland, which they have lacked to this day; this they will achieve only through the destruction of the Albanian block. Settlement should begin in villages, then in towns.118

http://www.alb-net.com/juka2.htm

Read that, it is called "The Albanians in Yugoslavia in Light of Historical Documents." It is has footnotes and sources, fact based on documents which weighs much more than the nationalist myth you are spewing.