New Conquests PBEM
- Thread starter predesad
- Start date
Rubberjello
Emperor
Wow! Eerily similar experiences.
I was a huge player of HoMM (Heroes of Might and Magic) a while back. I was pretty good amongst a small circle of friends, but when I took it to the next level (Tourney of Honor) I was horrified at how the competition escalated into mean, vicious, personal attacks, and dare I say - cheating. The former idyllic and relaxing game became something monstrous. I also walked away.
I feel bad about the whole situation. I had no idea you had already experienced your GA, Playboy. I saw the escalation in Pop, score, and tech advances as purely home grown. At that point I thought I was in trouble, and when Predasad approached me with a plan to share his Iron, I saw an opportunity I didn't want to waste.
So even though I am now sharing secrets that I wouldn't want Ironfart
to hear. Let me say that I have gambled big time in that I have turned off all research and infrastructure builds for the last 15 turns and developed most of the army you see. I don't know if I will be able to recover from this gamble and catch up with the aforementioned gaseous fowl. If the Mayan war is a long, drawn-out affair - he will have a big lead and a long time to build up his infrastructures and even wonders. Of course, there are always the Persians (with the only source of Iron on the Continent) awaiting in the wings. If the Mayans go, then it would be a 3 player brawl and 2 will always gang up against the one, and the one in this case might be me this time.
It sounds like maybe the next game we could imbark upon a cooperative effort? The Fall of Rome (we each play a Barb tribe helping each other) might be a fun PBEM to play as a team. Just an idea...
I was a huge player of HoMM (Heroes of Might and Magic) a while back. I was pretty good amongst a small circle of friends, but when I took it to the next level (Tourney of Honor) I was horrified at how the competition escalated into mean, vicious, personal attacks, and dare I say - cheating. The former idyllic and relaxing game became something monstrous. I also walked away.
I feel bad about the whole situation. I had no idea you had already experienced your GA, Playboy. I saw the escalation in Pop, score, and tech advances as purely home grown. At that point I thought I was in trouble, and when Predasad approached me with a plan to share his Iron, I saw an opportunity I didn't want to waste.
So even though I am now sharing secrets that I wouldn't want Ironfart
to hear. Let me say that I have gambled big time in that I have turned off all research and infrastructure builds for the last 15 turns and developed most of the army you see. I don't know if I will be able to recover from this gamble and catch up with the aforementioned gaseous fowl. If the Mayan war is a long, drawn-out affair - he will have a big lead and a long time to build up his infrastructures and even wonders. Of course, there are always the Persians (with the only source of Iron on the Continent) awaiting in the wings. If the Mayans go, then it would be a 3 player brawl and 2 will always gang up against the one, and the one in this case might be me this time.It sounds like maybe the next game we could imbark upon a cooperative effort? The Fall of Rome (we each play a Barb tribe helping each other) might be a fun PBEM to play as a team. Just an idea...
I certainly don't mind discussing game strategy in an open way here. It's what we used to do when our gaming groups met in the analog world every week.
What surprises me here is that Predesad would even give you iron in the first place. Given the extended isthmus between the Persian homeland and the rest of the continent, he could have pushed forward a wall of Immortals and pikemen which the two of us would have been hard pressed to counter. On the other hand, I guess he figures to knock one opponent off this age, and then deny the other iron in the next round of weapons development. It's an interesting strategic choice.
I also tried a new strategy (for me) in that as an agricultural civ, I've sacrificed a lot of citizens to the gods to hurry buildings and they grow back quick. It's hard to tell at this point whether that was a better strategy than letting the pop get to WLTK size, and I won't be around long enough to judge
Certainly in this game the early GA skewed the result.
Ironduck, I haven't seen the game today.
What surprises me here is that Predesad would even give you iron in the first place. Given the extended isthmus between the Persian homeland and the rest of the continent, he could have pushed forward a wall of Immortals and pikemen which the two of us would have been hard pressed to counter. On the other hand, I guess he figures to knock one opponent off this age, and then deny the other iron in the next round of weapons development. It's an interesting strategic choice.
I also tried a new strategy (for me) in that as an agricultural civ, I've sacrificed a lot of citizens to the gods to hurry buildings and they grow back quick. It's hard to tell at this point whether that was a better strategy than letting the pop get to WLTK size, and I won't be around long enough to judge
Certainly in this game the early GA skewed the result.Ironduck, I haven't seen the game today.
predesad
Emperor
Im back guys, internet been down 2 days
Now to defend Rubberjello's reputation:
First of all, an MPP in civIII is only enforced if another nation invades & attacks inside the territory of the nation. i can point to threads where MPP strategies against the AI have been used to verify. Basically, you cannot use an MPP to force a player to join you in a war in which you invade their territory, or attack their units first even if they are in your territory or units at sea, unclaimed land etc. This is not my interpretation, but rather the way MPPs work in the game. For instance just as an example, if in this game, Persia and Maya both had MPP with Dutch, but not with each other, then as the situation stands, the Dutch would not yet be obligated to choose sides and honor the MPP because nobody has attacked a unit in the other's territory. The MPP would have to be enforced, however once Persian forces reached your cities or units inside your cultural borders and attacked them, not you attacking my units. Again this is not my interpretation, this is how MPP works in the game and i can point you to a thread I read just last weekend discussing MPP strategy which shows I am correct. Therefore, the Dutch were not obligated to join the war against the Persians at that time, and since the MPP expired, will not be required to do so.
Regarding our plans, how often when playing a game against the AI is their an agreement in place in which you are plotting to attack that civ as soon as the agreement expires? This is a major part of civ warmongering strategy and as long as conflict is not started or units moved into borders for attack while the agreement is in place, there is no rep hit. Rubberjello did not approach me, I approached him. He told me initially he could not agree to anything until it became closer for his agreement to expire. I had to bribe him sufficiently to convince him to ally with me, I am the one who has done the plotting / planning. I needed something, bad layout of territory hampered development, no bonus resources whatsoever except one fish in a city maybe 10 tiles away from capitol. But i had iron & horses, and when i had iron & horses i was able to see that neither the Dutch nor the Mayans had it (at that time) because it came up on diplomacy as something i could offer in trade. While discussions began 20 - 30 turns before the MPP expired, the actual agreement to completely go forward with the deal and my subsequently supplying him with iron did not take place until about 10 - 15 turns before the deal expired.
The Persians made no contact with any civ for a while and were convinced we were isolated on an island. I made contact with the Mayans long before I made contact with the Dutch, would have found the Dutch also, but two exploring warriors were victims of barbarians, which at that point in the game represented maybe 40% of my militery (not counting workers of course) Once i discovered i was not on an island i did not build warriors to do additional exploring because i was a very very small civ, Maya were very very large. I felt my only hope was to concentrate on defense and have some immortals ready in case they attacked. Avoided negotiations with Maya for fear they would soon discover our vulnerability and possibily make tribute demands, i was also very poor and behind in tech. At this point in the game I felt I was destined to be the first player to be wiped out.
Finally w/ alphabet / curragh I made contact w/ Dutch. Also communicated via email to Celts encouraging him 2 put a boat in the water so we could make contact (gave no directions to my land, just figured w/ both of us hunting each other maybe we would be lucky) This was about 30 turns left in agreement between Dutch & Maya (this is of course a guess) immediately i began discussions w/ Dutch trying to persuade them, and like i said they were reluctant until sufficiently bribed w/ iron and horses, i played a large part in the dutch being able to get horses also. rubberjello was concerend if he did not ally w/ me, then playboy would, i was concerned if they would both ally against me to get my iron. (but not for my land, it's not really worth that much)
I needed an ally & i had no idea how far away the Celts were or when/if I would make contact, i was desperate at the time and pushed the dutch. the dutch weren't out looking to screw the Maya, they just happened to be sitting in their homes one day when i came sailing by in my boat, iron sword in hand to show off, complete w/ delusions of grandeur, and finally i was able to convince him. There was no violation in the agreement, it was simply allowed to expire. The Dutch must have felt they needed to make plans for their own protection once the agreement expired at the expense of the Maya.
Understand your disbanding / abandoning cities policy, I might do the same in your shoes, but I had no idea we were really that superior to you militarily. Yes, we have superior weaponry , but that does not guarantee a victory.
As far as Ironduck is concerend, he has his hands full with a couple piddly AI's and will never survive long enough to decide if he can trust us.
BTW, playboy, just out of curiosity because i dont get to see replay of fights, did you get to sink my elite 1 HP curragh that had just fought off 6 barbarian galleys or did it sink in the ocean, if you sunk it, did your galley survive the ocean or sink, of course the last part you might not want to divulge, but guessing it survived & killed my other curragh.
as far as the trash talking, i will leave it very general in nature, not accusational, if i wanna make it more accusatory i'll just do so in an email & cc the other players.
Now to defend Rubberjello's reputation:
First of all, an MPP in civIII is only enforced if another nation invades & attacks inside the territory of the nation. i can point to threads where MPP strategies against the AI have been used to verify. Basically, you cannot use an MPP to force a player to join you in a war in which you invade their territory, or attack their units first even if they are in your territory or units at sea, unclaimed land etc. This is not my interpretation, but rather the way MPPs work in the game. For instance just as an example, if in this game, Persia and Maya both had MPP with Dutch, but not with each other, then as the situation stands, the Dutch would not yet be obligated to choose sides and honor the MPP because nobody has attacked a unit in the other's territory. The MPP would have to be enforced, however once Persian forces reached your cities or units inside your cultural borders and attacked them, not you attacking my units. Again this is not my interpretation, this is how MPP works in the game and i can point you to a thread I read just last weekend discussing MPP strategy which shows I am correct. Therefore, the Dutch were not obligated to join the war against the Persians at that time, and since the MPP expired, will not be required to do so.
Regarding our plans, how often when playing a game against the AI is their an agreement in place in which you are plotting to attack that civ as soon as the agreement expires? This is a major part of civ warmongering strategy and as long as conflict is not started or units moved into borders for attack while the agreement is in place, there is no rep hit. Rubberjello did not approach me, I approached him. He told me initially he could not agree to anything until it became closer for his agreement to expire. I had to bribe him sufficiently to convince him to ally with me, I am the one who has done the plotting / planning. I needed something, bad layout of territory hampered development, no bonus resources whatsoever except one fish in a city maybe 10 tiles away from capitol. But i had iron & horses, and when i had iron & horses i was able to see that neither the Dutch nor the Mayans had it (at that time) because it came up on diplomacy as something i could offer in trade. While discussions began 20 - 30 turns before the MPP expired, the actual agreement to completely go forward with the deal and my subsequently supplying him with iron did not take place until about 10 - 15 turns before the deal expired.
The Persians made no contact with any civ for a while and were convinced we were isolated on an island. I made contact with the Mayans long before I made contact with the Dutch, would have found the Dutch also, but two exploring warriors were victims of barbarians, which at that point in the game represented maybe 40% of my militery (not counting workers of course) Once i discovered i was not on an island i did not build warriors to do additional exploring because i was a very very small civ, Maya were very very large. I felt my only hope was to concentrate on defense and have some immortals ready in case they attacked. Avoided negotiations with Maya for fear they would soon discover our vulnerability and possibily make tribute demands, i was also very poor and behind in tech. At this point in the game I felt I was destined to be the first player to be wiped out.
Finally w/ alphabet / curragh I made contact w/ Dutch. Also communicated via email to Celts encouraging him 2 put a boat in the water so we could make contact (gave no directions to my land, just figured w/ both of us hunting each other maybe we would be lucky) This was about 30 turns left in agreement between Dutch & Maya (this is of course a guess) immediately i began discussions w/ Dutch trying to persuade them, and like i said they were reluctant until sufficiently bribed w/ iron and horses, i played a large part in the dutch being able to get horses also. rubberjello was concerend if he did not ally w/ me, then playboy would, i was concerned if they would both ally against me to get my iron. (but not for my land, it's not really worth that much)
I needed an ally & i had no idea how far away the Celts were or when/if I would make contact, i was desperate at the time and pushed the dutch. the dutch weren't out looking to screw the Maya, they just happened to be sitting in their homes one day when i came sailing by in my boat, iron sword in hand to show off, complete w/ delusions of grandeur, and finally i was able to convince him. There was no violation in the agreement, it was simply allowed to expire. The Dutch must have felt they needed to make plans for their own protection once the agreement expired at the expense of the Maya.
Understand your disbanding / abandoning cities policy, I might do the same in your shoes, but I had no idea we were really that superior to you militarily. Yes, we have superior weaponry , but that does not guarantee a victory.
As far as Ironduck is concerend, he has his hands full with a couple piddly AI's and will never survive long enough to decide if he can trust us.
BTW, playboy, just out of curiosity because i dont get to see replay of fights, did you get to sink my elite 1 HP curragh that had just fought off 6 barbarian galleys or did it sink in the ocean, if you sunk it, did your galley survive the ocean or sink, of course the last part you might not want to divulge, but guessing it survived & killed my other curragh.
as far as the trash talking, i will leave it very general in nature, not accusational, if i wanna make it more accusatory i'll just do so in an email & cc the other players.
ironduck
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2002
- Messages
- 6,561
Ahem.. I think the strong Celts will survive their constant wars against the AI just fine.. It would be embarrassing to be wiped out by the AI with no human intervention
I don't see a violation of treaties either as long as they are allowed to expire. I don't think I'll ever understand the warrior incident, so I'm just ignoring that part
There is one thing though - if we switch out of game mode here for a sec - how are we supposed to know who attacked whom? Say, if I have an MPP with any of you three and one attacks the other and both claim the other party attacked, then I'm screwed. When playing the AI it always knows who attacked so the rep hit is taken in accordance, but how is a human supposed to know what happens in the fog of war? The MPP is really problematic in that regard since it can't be known for sure in most cases if it was properly invoked..
Edit: unless I just haven't been told 'x declared war on y' yet because no attacks have been made.. that would make sense.. Since I still haven't met the Persians I can't know about that war, only the Dutch-Mayan war, which according to my advisor is not yet taking place.
I don't see a violation of treaties either as long as they are allowed to expire. I don't think I'll ever understand the warrior incident, so I'm just ignoring that part
There is one thing though - if we switch out of game mode here for a sec - how are we supposed to know who attacked whom? Say, if I have an MPP with any of you three and one attacks the other and both claim the other party attacked, then I'm screwed. When playing the AI it always knows who attacked so the rep hit is taken in accordance, but how is a human supposed to know what happens in the fog of war? The MPP is really problematic in that regard since it can't be known for sure in most cases if it was properly invoked..
Edit: unless I just haven't been told 'x declared war on y' yet because no attacks have been made.. that would make sense.. Since I still haven't met the Persians I can't know about that war, only the Dutch-Mayan war, which according to my advisor is not yet taking place.
Rubberjello
Emperor
@ Ironfluck - The Fog of war 
Just whom can you believe? 
*******************************************
HEAR YE HEAR YE
A Proclamation from the King RJ of the Dutch
We have discovered a monster in our midst! A criminal so heinious, so vile, so dispicable - that our souls cry out for vengeance and justice.
Who is this villain? It is none other than the leader of the Maya. While we were engaged in our punitive expedition to the south to slap the hand of Mayans for their duplicitous diplmatic ways, we discovered an entire city destroyed and the population, down to the last infant child, massacred!!! All evidence points to their own soldiers doing the killing! Hardened soldiers were reduced to tears while observing the rows of unburied corpses of citizens from all age groups and walks of life just lying in the streets. They, as have I, have sworn a solemn vow to bring the perpetrators of this policy to justice, and give them some of their own medicine.
Such infamy cannot be allowed to live on this same Earth as us honest and hardworking Dutch. It will will rooted out and utterly destroyed, and such survivors as can be saved will be welcomed into the Dutch kingdom as equal citizens under the King's law.
May the Lord(s) (since monotheism hasn't been discovered yet) have mercy upon the souls of those thousands of innocents.
Just whom can you believe? *******************************************
HEAR YE HEAR YE
A Proclamation from the King RJ of the Dutch
We have discovered a monster in our midst! A criminal so heinious, so vile, so dispicable - that our souls cry out for vengeance and justice.
Who is this villain? It is none other than the leader of the Maya. While we were engaged in our punitive expedition to the south to slap the hand of Mayans for their duplicitous diplmatic ways, we discovered an entire city destroyed and the population, down to the last infant child, massacred!!! All evidence points to their own soldiers doing the killing! Hardened soldiers were reduced to tears while observing the rows of unburied corpses of citizens from all age groups and walks of life just lying in the streets. They, as have I, have sworn a solemn vow to bring the perpetrators of this policy to justice, and give them some of their own medicine.
Such infamy cannot be allowed to live on this same Earth as us honest and hardworking Dutch. It will will rooted out and utterly destroyed, and such survivors as can be saved will be welcomed into the Dutch kingdom as equal citizens under the King's law.
May the Lord(s) (since monotheism hasn't been discovered yet) have mercy upon the souls of those thousands of innocents.
predesad
Emperor
regarding the MPP, the third party would have to try to do some investigating into the incident to determine who was telling the truth, i miss those reports form foreign advisor, cultural advisor, etc, at least you knew a little about what was occurring in otherm parts of the world. overall, though, i think everyone can be expected to maintain some honesty, for instance, playboy attacked my warrior first in his territory to start the war, that much is settled, the rest are just details that dont really matter outside of politics that leave you scratching your head wondering whom to believe.
predesad
Emperor
ironduck
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2002
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- 6,561
If I don't get those advisor reports there's no way I can know what's going on on your continent unless I have scouts placed at the key locations, and who would allow that? Not me.
We could agree about being honest on who declared war on whom, but that wasn't exactly how things were initially presented in this thread as you were trying to leave me confused One is more fair, the other is more fun, I don't see any obvious solutions..
We could agree about being honest on who declared war on whom, but that wasn't exactly how things were initially presented in this thread as you were trying to leave me confused
One is more fair, the other is more fun, I don't see any obvious solutions..
predesad
Emperor
technically, we were honest, the first attack & start of war was by the Mayans on my warrior who was in their territory, the debate was what was the intentions of the warrior in their territory
Rubberjello
Emperor
Errrhhhmmm.... Well, from a technical point of view, Planning a war upon your long-time ally while the treaty is still in effect is "dishonest". But as Predesad pointed out - we ALL do that to the AI all the time!
ironduck
Deity
- Joined
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- Messages
- 6,561
It's dishonest, but it's not 'illegal'.. it's something that can be discussed here as we do and then people can make up their minds, but I feel it will be more fair for everyone if *actual* breaking of treaties would be honestly declared.. although maybe that ruins some of the fun too.. clearly I have little experience with this multiplayer thing.
It was important to me to figure out if war had been illegally declared (breaking of treaties), since I can't see what's happening that's all I have to go by when I make up my idea of who is trustworthy..
It was important to me to figure out if war had been illegally declared (breaking of treaties), since I can't see what's happening that's all I have to go by when I make up my idea of who is trustworthy..
predesad
Emperor
there were no breaking of treaties by any party in the current war, the issue is the planning to go to war when treaty expired, but in epic game its done all the time, & in multiplayer its done all the time, most times deals are made for peace for the length of time the players feel they will be ready for war, players typically know to be ready for war once the treaty expires, that's just the nature of the game unless you are purely a peace loving player which obviously i am not since i stirred this whole thing up to begin with
predesad
Emperor
well, i certainly dont want to be pushy, but perhaps the turn needs to be sent to playboy again just in case, assuming thats where it is stuck at, ill send an email to rubberjello & playboy
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