New Conquests PBEM
- Thread starter predesad
- Start date
Rubberjello
Emperor
IT IS WAR!!!
The honorable government of the Netherlands has fulfilled its obligations and has declared war upon the Persians. It has received a plea from the Mayans to invoke their MPP and truce which has been held in honor for 2500 years. (but is due to expire next turn) It seems there was an aggressive Persian incursion into Mayan territory last turn.
However, there are scattered reports that the Persian "incursion" was a band of explorers who have been in Mayan territory for the past 1000 years, as a band of Mayan explorers has been in Persia for about the same amount of time. Thus, a "gentleman's agreement" seemed to exist about these two forces between the two governments.
If these rumors prove to be true, then the whole situation will be reappraised when the treaty expires past the year 1000 BC. If it is proven that the Mayans have massacred these Persian explorers unexpectedly, then in all honor the Netherlands is under no compulsion to help the Mayans in their war, and indeed would be disinclined to extend any further MPP or Peace deals to the untrustworthy Incan government.
History shall judge what happens in the next millenium. In all fairness, the Dutch will come out on top with their honor intact and reputation stainless.
The honorable government of the Netherlands has fulfilled its obligations and has declared war upon the Persians. It has received a plea from the Mayans to invoke their MPP and truce which has been held in honor for 2500 years. (but is due to expire next turn) It seems there was an aggressive Persian incursion into Mayan territory last turn.
However, there are scattered reports that the Persian "incursion" was a band of explorers who have been in Mayan territory for the past 1000 years, as a band of Mayan explorers has been in Persia for about the same amount of time. Thus, a "gentleman's agreement" seemed to exist about these two forces between the two governments.
If these rumors prove to be true, then the whole situation will be reappraised when the treaty expires past the year 1000 BC. If it is proven that the Mayans have massacred these Persian explorers unexpectedly, then in all honor the Netherlands is under no compulsion to help the Mayans in their war, and indeed would be disinclined to extend any further MPP or Peace deals to the untrustworthy Incan government.
History shall judge what happens in the next millenium. In all fairness, the Dutch will come out on top with their honor intact and reputation stainless.
ironduck
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2002
- Messages
- 6,561
Colour me confused 
I read this twice and still don't get it.. The dutch (whom we have met) are at war with the persians (whom we have not met) because..?
And the mayans (whom we have met) are not at war with anyone? Or at war with the persians?
Meanwhile, the proud celtic nation is holding its stand against the outrageous hittites who refuse to make peace.
I read this twice and still don't get it.. The dutch (whom we have met) are at war with the persians (whom we have not met) because..?
And the mayans (whom we have met) are not at war with anyone? Or at war with the persians?
Meanwhile, the proud celtic nation is holding its stand against the outrageous hittites who refuse to make peace.
predesad
Emperor
My dear friend & comrade Rubberjello, i certainly understand the predicament u are in. The Persians & the Mayans have each had a warrior unit near the others territory for over a 1000 years. The Mayans warrior even trespassed the Persian borders, but we were inclined to overlook this blunder. The Mayans requested that the Persians remove their warrior from near their territory, & we were simply trying to comply. In order to leave, the Persian warrior was forced to go through one square inside Mayan borders, since the Mayan warrior had previously trespassed our territory i felt he would allow me this one square intrusion, this city had been esablished after my warrior had passed that square previously. Instead the Mayans attacked the unsuspecting warrior. We have in response attacked the Mayan warrior in our lands, blood has already been spilled on both sides, casualties are small.
We, the Persians would also like to point out the Mayans attacked us while we were right in the middle of a 20 turn deal, an exchange of luxury resources.
Technically, an MPP can only be enforced if a nation invades another's lands AND attacks, bringing the war to their homefront. The attack by the Mayans which started this war was unprovoked and the subsequent counterattack by the Persians took place in Persian territory. Therefore it is my conclusion the Dutch are under no obligation to the Mayans.
Most Wise Emporer of the Dutch, I will gladly forgive you for destroying that section of road which has caused this silly war between our peaceful nations, a war perpetrated by the evil Mayans. Since your MPP expires next turn anyway, I extend my hand to you in peace and assure you there will be no harsh feelings by the Persians, we will remove this incident from our annals completely.
Your Loyal Friend,
Emporer Predesad
We, the Persians would also like to point out the Mayans attacked us while we were right in the middle of a 20 turn deal, an exchange of luxury resources.
Technically, an MPP can only be enforced if a nation invades another's lands AND attacks, bringing the war to their homefront. The attack by the Mayans which started this war was unprovoked and the subsequent counterattack by the Persians took place in Persian territory. Therefore it is my conclusion the Dutch are under no obligation to the Mayans.
Most Wise Emporer of the Dutch, I will gladly forgive you for destroying that section of road which has caused this silly war between our peaceful nations, a war perpetrated by the evil Mayans. Since your MPP expires next turn anyway, I extend my hand to you in peace and assure you there will be no harsh feelings by the Persians, we will remove this incident from our annals completely.
Your Loyal Friend,
Emporer Predesad
predesad
Emperor
WAR !!!
Most xxxxx of the Mayans, how dare you start a war with the peaceful Persians right in the middle of a trade deal? And worse yet, try to ensnare our friends, the Dutch.
Let it be known we will not rest until your nation has been exterminated !!!
Also, let me thank you, our nation was in a state of chaos, anarchy reigned supreme & i was busy putting down the rebellion. Now that this war has surfaced, the people have rushed to me and are planning shortly to inaugarate me as the First King of the Persian nation.
Most xxxxx of the Mayans, how dare you start a war with the peaceful Persians right in the middle of a trade deal? And worse yet, try to ensnare our friends, the Dutch.
Let it be known we will not rest until your nation has been exterminated !!!
Also, let me thank you, our nation was in a state of chaos, anarchy reigned supreme & i was busy putting down the rebellion. Now that this war has surfaced, the people have rushed to me and are planning shortly to inaugarate me as the First King of the Persian nation.
predesad
Emperor
Ironduck, it is quite simple really, the Mayans & Dutch have had a longstanding alliance / MPP trade cooperation. The Persians never tried to interfere with this arrangement. This deal is to expire in 1 turn. Now the Mayans are resorting to acts of desperation.
The Persians had a warrior near Mayan territory.
The Mayans had a warrior near Persian territory.
Mayans trespassed borders, i overlooked.
Persians trespassed only trying to leave the area, they attacked my warrior.
Mayans tried to enforce MPP w/ Dutch by claiming I invaded their lands. Dutch felt it was a pack of lies and also had a warrior in my territory. To keep reputation intact & to prevent dischord between the Persians & Dutch, the Dutch warrior pillaged a road, which caused war between our peoples and honored the MPP, but inflicted minimal loss to the Persians. Very smart move by the Dutch. Very foolish move by the Mayans.
Rubberjello
Emperor
As would I.
The Dutch and the Mayans are both officially at war with the Persians as of now. Pending the outcome of the "exploring warrior" incident, the Dutch will decide how vigorously to pursue the war against the Persians. Or, indeed to pull out altogether and remain neutral.
predesad
Emperor
may / may not have limited availability Sunday / Monday, ISP issues
Rubberjello
Emperor
After reviewing all the evidence, the Dutch Government has come to the conclusion that the Mayans were the guilty party in "the incident". Furthermore, the Dutch people were much wroth at at the manipulative diplomacy attempted by the Mayans, so much so that they have declared war on the Mayan nation.
It is with some trepidation that the Dutch have noticed a large Persian force on their borders - but hopefully that force will be going after the Mayans also. The Eastern Continent seems destined to be paved with bloodshed.
(Please note the date - the Mayan and Dutch MPP and treaties expired 25 years ago)
It is with some trepidation that the Dutch have noticed a large Persian force on their borders - but hopefully that force will be going after the Mayans also. The Eastern Continent seems destined to be paved with bloodshed.
(Please note the date - the Mayan and Dutch MPP and treaties expired 25 years ago)
predesad
Emperor
My dearest friend, Most Wise King of the hearty Dutch people:
Fear nothing from the hordes of immortals you now see near your borders, they have in fact been dispatched to Maya. We have left our cities defended, but never planned to launch an invasion against the Dutch, convinced the truth would indeed come out and peace would reign once again between our nations.
We are deeply saddened that war has touched our homefront, our people have been busy building temples and religious revival has swept the lands, our immortals having been employed as sacrificial priests, alas that duty will no go to others as they must take up arms and defend our honor and make retribution for the lives taken in ambush.
Fear nothing from the hordes of immortals you now see near your borders, they have in fact been dispatched to Maya. We have left our cities defended, but never planned to launch an invasion against the Dutch, convinced the truth would indeed come out and peace would reign once again between our nations.
We are deeply saddened that war has touched our homefront, our people have been busy building temples and religious revival has swept the lands, our immortals having been employed as sacrificial priests, alas that duty will no go to others as they must take up arms and defend our honor and make retribution for the lives taken in ambush.
Sorry, but I hadn't been on this forum in several days, and just now saw the last page of messages.
* * *
There's something rotten in the Netherlands and it's not the Gouda.
Talk about duplicitious!
When passing turn 75 (six turns ago), the Dutch wrote:
Weeeeelllllllll....I must confess that he is offering an alliance against you.
When passing turn 77 (four turns ago), the Dutch wrote:
Wow. This sucks. Two people are tearing at me here..... I'll have to think about it overnight.
When passing turn 78 (three turns ago), the Dutch wrote:
war is going to start in 975 BC, unless the Persians do something against me in the meantime.
- I would point out here that the Dutch informed me the Persians were going to attack me this turn (turn 81)
When passing turn 79 (two turns ago), the Dutch wrote:
I must admit that I have never fought a single battle against a human opponent before in Civ3, and I'm kind of anxious to see how I do.
* * *
Therefore, when the Persian warrior (not explorer) once again violated my territory, I was under the impression from the Dutch that it was the prelude to attack, and thus defended my territory.
What I find most interesting is that on the very turn that the Dutch declare war, the Persian is offering peace, and it makes me wonder about whether the Dutch maliciously contrived to bring the peaceloving Mayan people to the point of war with the Persians.
Furthermore, as the attached image will show, the nefarious Dutch were massing forces to strike at Maya, and that their positioning reveals that they could NOT have been brought to bear upon the Persians, as treaty required they would. Their declaration of war was obviously made in bad faith, as their troops were already positioned to attack Maya. The Dutch have proven to be hollow allies, and I would not trust them further than I could throw a leerdammer wheel.
When we met, the Dutch asked offered peace and stated they were builders rather than militarists. It is my fault that I misunderstood that term to mean 'empire builder' rather than warlord. As you can see by the attached picture, the Dutch have a different meaning to the term 'builder'.
Prdesad: Not to argue with you, but: Throughout the period of our mutual wanderings, I DID NOT enter your territory at all, until the last couple of turns, and that was only after I had informed you of my intentions:
I wrote: "BTW, that warrior of yours is heading towards my heartland. We've each had a warrior scouting unclaimed territory, but I'm returning home now, while you've been trespassing. I hear reports of your men looting chickens in the countryside, which is very disturbing."
You replied: "i am inclined 2 continue 2 scout unclaimed territory. i will honor ur borders & not trespass as long as u honor mine. good luck getting home."
I took this to mean that you knew my warrior was returning the only way he could, and that you gave me your blessing to do so. When you would not open a path, I moved back into neutral territory, but attacked the unit which was then positioned to attack as the Dutch predicted they would be. Trade agreement or not, I had multiple targets of opportunity there and needed to protect them.
Furthermore, you state below that: "Technically, an MPP can only be enforced if a nation invades another's lands AND attacks, bringing the war to their homefront. The attack by the Mayans which started this war was unprovoked and the subsequent counterattack by the Persians took place in Persian territory. Therefore it is my conclusion the Dutch are under no obligation to the Mayans."
How convenient for you to render that verdict. In fact, TECHNICALLY, nowhere in the rules does it specify boundaries or limitations of an MPP between human players.
And there's more deviousness here: You write: "To keep reputation intact & to prevent dischord between the Persians & Dutch, the Dutch warrior pillaged a road, which caused war between our peoples and honored the MPP, but inflicted minimal loss to the Persians. Very smart move by the Dutch. Very foolish move by the Mayans."
With this you expose the decption by the Dutch, that in fact the declaration of war was not made in the good faith spelled out in our non-aggression pact/MPP, but was a transparent attempt to pull a fig leaf of honor over their pre-determined war plan.
Just as convenient for the Dutch was their finding: "After reviewing all the evidence, the Dutch Government has come to the conclusion that the Mayans were the guilty party in "the incident". Furthermore, the Dutch people were much wroth at at the manipulative diplomacy attempted by the Mayans, so much so that they have declared war on the Mayan nation."
We have somewhere around 170 countries on this planet. I'll withdraw my entire argument and objection if you can just tell me of ONE NATION that would not see the uninvited incursion of armed military within their borders as an act of war.
* * *
None of the above really bothers me. What bothers me here is to be baselessly called a liar and a coward by the host of this game. While a certain amount of role-playing enhances the gaming experience, personal insults do not.
The peace-loving Mayan people will not become slaves of warmongers. Therefore, I am ordering that 'special Kool-Aid' be passed out to the citizenry at the very next opportunity. You may get our roads, but you will never get our cities. You two want your armies to fight. Fine. Fight each other.
* * *
There's something rotten in the Netherlands and it's not the Gouda.
Talk about duplicitious!
When passing turn 75 (six turns ago), the Dutch wrote:
Weeeeelllllllll....I must confess that he is offering an alliance against you.
When passing turn 77 (four turns ago), the Dutch wrote:
Wow. This sucks. Two people are tearing at me here..... I'll have to think about it overnight.
When passing turn 78 (three turns ago), the Dutch wrote:
war is going to start in 975 BC, unless the Persians do something against me in the meantime.
- I would point out here that the Dutch informed me the Persians were going to attack me this turn (turn 81)
When passing turn 79 (two turns ago), the Dutch wrote:
I must admit that I have never fought a single battle against a human opponent before in Civ3, and I'm kind of anxious to see how I do.
* * *
Therefore, when the Persian warrior (not explorer) once again violated my territory, I was under the impression from the Dutch that it was the prelude to attack, and thus defended my territory.
What I find most interesting is that on the very turn that the Dutch declare war, the Persian is offering peace, and it makes me wonder about whether the Dutch maliciously contrived to bring the peaceloving Mayan people to the point of war with the Persians.
Furthermore, as the attached image will show, the nefarious Dutch were massing forces to strike at Maya, and that their positioning reveals that they could NOT have been brought to bear upon the Persians, as treaty required they would. Their declaration of war was obviously made in bad faith, as their troops were already positioned to attack Maya. The Dutch have proven to be hollow allies, and I would not trust them further than I could throw a leerdammer wheel.
When we met, the Dutch asked offered peace and stated they were builders rather than militarists. It is my fault that I misunderstood that term to mean 'empire builder' rather than warlord. As you can see by the attached picture, the Dutch have a different meaning to the term 'builder'.
Prdesad: Not to argue with you, but: Throughout the period of our mutual wanderings, I DID NOT enter your territory at all, until the last couple of turns, and that was only after I had informed you of my intentions:
I wrote: "BTW, that warrior of yours is heading towards my heartland. We've each had a warrior scouting unclaimed territory, but I'm returning home now, while you've been trespassing. I hear reports of your men looting chickens in the countryside, which is very disturbing."
You replied: "i am inclined 2 continue 2 scout unclaimed territory. i will honor ur borders & not trespass as long as u honor mine. good luck getting home."
I took this to mean that you knew my warrior was returning the only way he could, and that you gave me your blessing to do so. When you would not open a path, I moved back into neutral territory, but attacked the unit which was then positioned to attack as the Dutch predicted they would be. Trade agreement or not, I had multiple targets of opportunity there and needed to protect them.
Furthermore, you state below that: "Technically, an MPP can only be enforced if a nation invades another's lands AND attacks, bringing the war to their homefront. The attack by the Mayans which started this war was unprovoked and the subsequent counterattack by the Persians took place in Persian territory. Therefore it is my conclusion the Dutch are under no obligation to the Mayans."
How convenient for you to render that verdict. In fact, TECHNICALLY, nowhere in the rules does it specify boundaries or limitations of an MPP between human players.
And there's more deviousness here: You write: "To keep reputation intact & to prevent dischord between the Persians & Dutch, the Dutch warrior pillaged a road, which caused war between our peoples and honored the MPP, but inflicted minimal loss to the Persians. Very smart move by the Dutch. Very foolish move by the Mayans."
With this you expose the decption by the Dutch, that in fact the declaration of war was not made in the good faith spelled out in our non-aggression pact/MPP, but was a transparent attempt to pull a fig leaf of honor over their pre-determined war plan.
Just as convenient for the Dutch was their finding: "After reviewing all the evidence, the Dutch Government has come to the conclusion that the Mayans were the guilty party in "the incident". Furthermore, the Dutch people were much wroth at at the manipulative diplomacy attempted by the Mayans, so much so that they have declared war on the Mayan nation."
We have somewhere around 170 countries on this planet. I'll withdraw my entire argument and objection if you can just tell me of ONE NATION that would not see the uninvited incursion of armed military within their borders as an act of war.
* * *
None of the above really bothers me. What bothers me here is to be baselessly called a liar and a coward by the host of this game. While a certain amount of role-playing enhances the gaming experience, personal insults do not.
The peace-loving Mayan people will not become slaves of warmongers. Therefore, I am ordering that 'special Kool-Aid' be passed out to the citizenry at the very next opportunity. You may get our roads, but you will never get our cities. You two want your armies to fight. Fine. Fight each other.
Attachments
predesad
Emperor
Playboy, before i write anything regarding the war situation or in game situation i want to clear one thing up, all of my comments, ALL of my comments are directed towards a character, King Playboy of the Mayans, that character exists only in the PBEM in which we are participating. And in fact these comments are made by another character, King Predesad of the Persians, who also exists only in the PBEM in which we are participating.
It is all about role playing & perhaps I do get a bit carried away. The host was never calling you aliar or a coward, not you personally. However, I want to push aside any technicalities of the role playing issue and offer you a sincere apology. I in no way shape or form meant to call you personally a coward or a liar, i ask that you please accept my apology. I never meant to make any character attacks upon you and will refrain from doing so in the future if it offends you. If you take these type of comments personally, then i refuse to make excuses for myself and claim they are a part of the game. Instead I will simply not do it, and again extend my sincerest apologies, I would clear this up via email, however since my initial comment was broadcast via this thread I feel it is only appropriate I apologize on this thread as I have done several times and will continue to do several more times if it is necessary.
In fact, I am so upset by the fact that you took my comments seriously, personally, that I will not argue the in game points at all until this issue is cleared up. I am sorry, playboy for my comments, they were indeed not meant against you personally but against the character you represent in the game, that character I accused of being a liar and that character I accused of cowardice. However, again, I refuse to hide behind the role playing and make excuses because you have obviously been offended and I am the one who caused the offense.
Furthermore, I find that this sincere, detailed apology is not enough, but immediately after making this post I wil go to my other posts and edit out any comments which I feel might have been misconstrued as personal character attacks.
I can only ask that all parties interested in the details of the current in game situation reserve judgement until such time as I feel comfortable proceeding to explain how I feel the Dutch did keep their agreement with the Mayans. I will not go into any details right now with an explanation because the personal issue here is infinitely more important to me.
I offer this as a reasonable explanation only, not trying to make excuses. Everyone knows I have just had surgery one week ago. I am in severe pain at times, constant pain although not always severe. I have taken more drugs (prescribed, following directions) in the past three months than I ever have in my adult lifetime. Sometimes the affects of these drugs do cause me to get carried away, especially in wee hoursof morning when I am very tired, yet unable to sleep due to surgery. Not just here in this forum, but in other places involving PBEM games I have posted & emailed things which later I was shocked to see I had written them. I offer this not as an excuse, but rather as a reason to why I might get carried away.
Despite this feeble explanation, I still offer you a sincere apology. My prescription medication having no effect on the meaning behind this apology.
I have interpretted this to mean you intend to quit on your next turn and I ask that you do not quit, I will in fact beg you not to quit. Please do not quit about this personal issue as I am retracting all I have said with sincere apologies and assurances those types of comments will not occur again at the risk of offending you further.
If you want to quit because of the iminent war, I suggest that the war has only begun, victory is far from assured, and I would very much like you to continue, not because I want to have the pleasure of beating you, but because I dont know if we will win, or if we win will the war, will it ultimately cost us the game anyway. These are issues which must be played out. I believe at the beginning I asked for players who would not quit the game. If you quit at this point in the game, then the game is tarnished, we might have to just all retire and throw it out. But I am inclined to believe you are not quitting because of the game situation, but rather because of my comments, and once again I am sorry.
Predesad
Rubberjello
Emperor
*stepping out of character also*
I too wish to apologize for any misunderstandings outside of the game. I won't do so as well and verbosely as Predsad, but above all I want to make sure there is nothing personal involved. The way you have played this game (from what I can observe) is that you are an excellent Civ. player who easily outgrew me in the peacetime race. I have the utmost respect for your skills.
The Dutch government is indeed being duplicit. But they did follow the letter of the law. (MPP and and Non-aggression towards the Mayans until the 1000 BC turn was up). I will be the first to admit that the "war" with the Persians was a convenient smoke screen (Machavellion sp? is probably a more appropriate word), but as with the quotes you included in the above message show - I tried to drop some hints that I was turning from the peaceful builder race (which you were whipping my butt on!) to a more military one.
In my defence all I can say is that there have been many, many wars in real human history started over even more muddied and tangled events (mostly misunderstandings), and what is happening in our game is mirroring that.
As I have also mentioned, I have a fairly limited experience in playing with other humans in Civ. I do not know how I would react if I saw a SoD (Stack of Doom) bearing down upon my precious civilization. I would probably be very pissed, desperate, and actually upset in real life. I think I would consider the "Kool Aid" act as you mentioned. That just goes to show you that in fact we probably have fairly similar personalities - perfectionist - involved - and intense?
Anyway - I hope this can all be worked out without any permanent judgements (in real life and in current and future games) against each other.
I too wish to apologize for any misunderstandings outside of the game. I won't do so as well and verbosely
as Predsad, but above all I want to make sure there is nothing personal involved. The way you have played this game (from what I can observe) is that you are an excellent Civ. player who easily outgrew me in the peacetime race. I have the utmost respect for your skills.The Dutch government is indeed being duplicit. But they did follow the letter of the law. (MPP and and Non-aggression towards the Mayans until the 1000 BC turn was up). I will be the first to admit that the "war" with the Persians was a convenient smoke screen (Machavellion sp? is probably a more appropriate word), but as with the quotes you included in the above message show - I tried to drop some hints that I was turning from the peaceful builder race (which you were whipping my butt on!) to a more military one.
In my defence all I can say is that there have been many, many wars in real human history started over even more muddied and tangled events (mostly misunderstandings), and what is happening in our game is mirroring that.
As I have also mentioned, I have a fairly limited experience in playing with other humans in Civ. I do not know how I would react if I saw a SoD (Stack of Doom) bearing down upon my precious civilization. I would probably be very pissed, desperate, and actually upset in real life. I think I would consider the "Kool Aid" act as you mentioned. That just goes to show you that in fact we probably have fairly similar personalities - perfectionist - involved - and intense?
Anyway - I hope this can all be worked out without any permanent judgements (in real life and in current and future games) against each other.
predesad
Emperor
i will even go a step further, at the risk of rubberjello feeling i have revealed too much, & state exactly what has happened to clear your honorable name, playboy. rubberjello & i have been planning this war for maybe 20 or 30 turns, merely waiting for your peace deal to run out. yes, my warrior would have attacked a worker in your area, or other unit, not the turn you attacked me, but 2 turns later, & hopefully try to get in position to be out of reach of your units & get to a mountain to fortify, probably not possible.
the smokescreen war between the persians / dutch was in fact needed by the persians / dutch to prematurely cancel a trade even if you had not declared war on me we would have had this false war.
the persians & dutch have plotted against the mayans because you have a target on your back out distancing yourself from us & being too close to the dutch. obviously i would have preferred for the other player in this game, ironduck to be shrouded in mystery regarding these details, but i unhesitantly push this aside for the sake of clearing this issue up on the personal front. having an in game advantage to me is not worth inflicting real life character damage
once more i apologize
the smokescreen war between the persians / dutch was in fact needed by the persians / dutch to prematurely cancel a trade even if you had not declared war on me we would have had this false war.
the persians & dutch have plotted against the mayans because you have a target on your back out distancing yourself from us & being too close to the dutch. obviously i would have preferred for the other player in this game, ironduck to be shrouded in mystery regarding these details, but i unhesitantly push this aside for the sake of clearing this issue up on the personal front. having an in game advantage to me is not worth inflicting real life character damage
once more i apologize
ironduck
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2002
- Messages
- 6,561
Well that was interesting
I didn't interpret the comments that had been made earlier as being against Playboy but rather against the ruler of the Mayans, although I can see how it could have been interpreted that way..
Maybe it would be easier if people had different names for the ingame leaders, then we would only use those names and it would be obvious.. but just saying the name of the nation should work 'the divine, peace-loving, advanced Celtic nation' suffices, for instance.
Either way I hope no one quits this game, I've enjoyed it a lot, but obviously it's no fun if people get angry with each other.. So far I've only had the AI to be angry with (amazingly the hittites still refuse to negotiate peace, I kid you not).
Gonna play my turn and seng along now..
predesad
Emperor
well, i am at least glad that others did not perceive my comments as persoanl character attacks, i can only hope playboy will accept my apology
I'm sorry if I seem a bit touchy here. A few years back I was playing a lot of Starfleet Command, having played it's boardgame precursor, Star Fleet Battles since 1981. I was very involved in the online MPlayer (later GameSpy) community, and I loved the game. But due to the competitive nature of players, the game taunts soon devolved into personal attacks of the leaders and officers of a number of fleets. After putting up with (and at points participating) this malicious infighting for over a year, I just walked away from it and haven't gone back.
While I understand the bravado of a game persona, the fact is that when others browse these threads, false accusations can cause a reader to prejudge another forum member before they ever encounter them, with resultant problems occurring when those players finally meet in the arena.
I've never broken a gaming agreement, and as such took offense to being called a liar, resulting in my rather extended previous post.
Presedad, apology accepted. I have no desire to be a martyr here. I just want to make sure that we don't start the insult ball rolling down a very slippery slope, to the detriment of us all.
* * *
Now, as for the game . . .
Well, the Dutch have certainly shown their true colors admitting their duplicity. Not only have they paid mere lip service to a mutual defense pact, but Persia has revealed that the plan was hatched way back during our initial treaty. Thus, the Dutch negotiated a MPP/NAP in bad faith from the start. Brother Celt, if you ever shake hands with the Dutch make sure you count your fingers afterward. This situation is like the U.S. pulling out of NAFTA and attacking Canada shortly thereafter. Maybe not, though. Perhaps the more appropriate historical reference is the Nazi abrogation of the non-aggression defence pact of 1940 with the Soviets.
Since we're laying cards on the table, I'd like to discuss how little the early game score is relevant to the situation. RJ stated several times that he felt 'threatened' by me, particularly by my construction of the Pyramids. Hardly a militaristic wonder, but beneficial for an agricultural society. The problem was that it popped my GA, and so, over the twenty turns ending in 1075BC, my improvements got built a little quicker and my score went up in the near term.
In fact, though, despotism is just about the worst way to come into a GA. I was further hampered by the fact the trying to switch to Republic, which I discovered about halfway through the GA, would have cost me 5-7 turns of the GA, and thus slowed down progression to a more productive government.
Therefore any rise in my points would be more than offset by a later GA initiated under a more efficient gov't. It was certainly my fault for not reading up and realizing that the Pyramids could trigger an agricultural GA. Nonetheless, players who follow the score too closely can often develop a myopic viewpoint.
Furthermore, I am not suprised that my score was moving up faster. With assurances of peace from my neighbor, I built more plowshares than swords. Had you done the same instead of building up an army of at least 30 units, your score would also have moved faster. (This is not to argue merits of different game strategies, but rather to explain why I pulled ahead).
RJ, because of our agreement, (which included floating the idea of holding off war until the modern age) I confided in you that I had no access to iron, and you claimed the same. Of course, a few turns later when a curragh came in sight of one of your cities, it was defended by a Swiss merc. I'm not crying about the iron, or that you've ganged up to kill Maya. I might well do the same in your shoes. Just don't tell me that you feel threatened by my 2-2-1s and 1-2-1s when you've amassed a huge war machine if 4-2-1s, 1-4-1s and trebuchets. That bell rings a little hollow.
As for the Kool-Aid, I have ordered two varieties, red and blue. One I will give to my armies, while the other will be distributed to my cities. Without iron, we have little hope of standing against two armies. Therefore, as our defenses fail, we shall endeavor to return the earth to the way we found it. You may get a few roads and irrigation channels we might miss, but you will never enslave Mayan cities. So, give it a try and see if you can wipe me out before I leave as much trace for history as the Minoans did. (Understand that I am not quitting the game, but rather embarking on a scorched earth policy).
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!
While I understand the bravado of a game persona, the fact is that when others browse these threads, false accusations can cause a reader to prejudge another forum member before they ever encounter them, with resultant problems occurring when those players finally meet in the arena.
I've never broken a gaming agreement, and as such took offense to being called a liar, resulting in my rather extended previous post.
Presedad, apology accepted. I have no desire to be a martyr here. I just want to make sure that we don't start the insult ball rolling down a very slippery slope, to the detriment of us all.
* * *
Now, as for the game . . .
Well, the Dutch have certainly shown their true colors admitting their duplicity. Not only have they paid mere lip service to a mutual defense pact, but Persia has revealed that the plan was hatched way back during our initial treaty. Thus, the Dutch negotiated a MPP/NAP in bad faith from the start. Brother Celt, if you ever shake hands with the Dutch make sure you count your fingers afterward. This situation is like the U.S. pulling out of NAFTA and attacking Canada shortly thereafter. Maybe not, though. Perhaps the more appropriate historical reference is the Nazi abrogation of the non-aggression defence pact of 1940 with the Soviets.
Since we're laying cards on the table, I'd like to discuss how little the early game score is relevant to the situation. RJ stated several times that he felt 'threatened' by me, particularly by my construction of the Pyramids. Hardly a militaristic wonder, but beneficial for an agricultural society. The problem was that it popped my GA, and so, over the twenty turns ending in 1075BC, my improvements got built a little quicker and my score went up in the near term.
In fact, though, despotism is just about the worst way to come into a GA. I was further hampered by the fact the trying to switch to Republic, which I discovered about halfway through the GA, would have cost me 5-7 turns of the GA, and thus slowed down progression to a more productive government.
Therefore any rise in my points would be more than offset by a later GA initiated under a more efficient gov't. It was certainly my fault for not reading up and realizing that the Pyramids could trigger an agricultural GA. Nonetheless, players who follow the score too closely can often develop a myopic viewpoint.
Furthermore, I am not suprised that my score was moving up faster. With assurances of peace from my neighbor, I built more plowshares than swords. Had you done the same instead of building up an army of at least 30 units, your score would also have moved faster. (This is not to argue merits of different game strategies, but rather to explain why I pulled ahead).
RJ, because of our agreement, (which included floating the idea of holding off war until the modern age) I confided in you that I had no access to iron, and you claimed the same. Of course, a few turns later when a curragh came in sight of one of your cities, it was defended by a Swiss merc. I'm not crying about the iron, or that you've ganged up to kill Maya. I might well do the same in your shoes. Just don't tell me that you feel threatened by my 2-2-1s and 1-2-1s when you've amassed a huge war machine if 4-2-1s, 1-4-1s and trebuchets. That bell rings a little hollow.
As for the Kool-Aid, I have ordered two varieties, red and blue. One I will give to my armies, while the other will be distributed to my cities. Without iron, we have little hope of standing against two armies. Therefore, as our defenses fail, we shall endeavor to return the earth to the way we found it. You may get a few roads and irrigation channels we might miss, but you will never enslave Mayan cities. So, give it a try and see if you can wipe me out before I leave as much trace for history as the Minoans did. (Understand that I am not quitting the game, but rather embarking on a scorched earth policy).
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!
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