New Conquests PBEM

[Playboy]

As to the comments of the nefarious Persian and duplicitous Dutch governments since my last post, what a load of malarkey!

Predesad writes: "Now to defend Rubberjello's reputation"

A bit late for that, eh? He's already admitted to entering into a treaty in bad faith, and then deceiving me about that in private emails. Certainly, there can be no credibility in Dutch words.

As for your polemic on MPPs, it was wasted breath. The fact was that I already knew you two were plotting to war against Maya, and that without iron I could not stand against the two of you. Since you did not refute my earlier point, you must have realized it's basic truth: An uninvited territorial incursion by armed forces is considered an act of war anywhere on earth.

Predesad writes: I had to bribe him sufficiently to convince him to ally with me

In any civilized society(except computer gaming, it seems), the acceptance of bribes is considered immoral at the very least.

My intention when invoking the MPP was to find out whether the Dutch ruler was honorable or not, and I certainly found out. It's not a mistake I will make with him again.

Rubberjello writes: HEAR YE HEAR YE blah blah blah

As I wrote earlier, our cities would be abandoned because our citizens were unwilling to become Dutch slaves. Do not, as you have so callously done before, make accusations in my direction to cover your own misdeeds, conniving, treacherous warmonger. Also, you shouldn't be using the words "honest" and "Dutch" in the same sentence. BTW, the size 7 city of Tonopah has been abandoned and burned in welcome of your arrival.



Predesad writes: technically, we were honest

Really? That's like President Clinton saying 'technically' he didn't have sex with the intern, and that he didn't lie about it. It doesn't pass the smell test.

Rubberjello writes: Errrhhhmmm.... Well, from a technical point of view, Planning a war upon your long-time ally while the treaty is still in effect is "dishonest". But as Predesad pointed out - we ALL do that to the AI all the time!

Don't forget that agreeing to extend said treaty while you were already planning for war is especially odious Ya know, guys, I don't care what you do to the AI. I play against humans because I want a different kind of game. Using the same strategies on humans and code robs you of the richness of play that cannot be achieved against machine alone. I would also point out that the AI is far more humane than either of you. The AI is willing to make peace after x# of turns, whereas you two are obviously engaged in a war of total genocide against the Maya.

ironduck writes: It's dishonest, but it's not 'illegal'

I believe that we use the terms unethical or immoral to describe that condition. When I answered the call for a game of 'honorable players', I guess I misunderstood the term. I believe Mr. Worf to be a good judge of things honorable, and I believe that if he were party to these discussions that he would turn his back on the despicable despots of Persia and Dutchland. (Dutchland uber alles, anyone?)

Warmest fuzzies.

 

[predesad]

Well of course the outnumbered Mayan dictator is always going to cry foul play. Let me clarify however when I used the phrase, we do it to the AI all the time, it was simply because I have far more experience against the AI than against humans in PBEM. Rubberjello did not violate the agreement w/ the Maya, he simply let it expire, but i don't think we will ever agree upon that point. Your agreement was nearing expiration when I finally convinced him to join with me in this alliance. As far as being honorable goes, I am honorable only as far as the exact date specified on any given deal and I have no problem telling that to anyone I play with up front, but when you joined this game I don't remember there being any such call for honorable players that you mention. In fact later, when ironduck brought the subject up I said I would go with the consensus, but preferred being allowed to break treaties (which did not happen in this instance) so long as it was acceptable to report such incidents via email, posts. Maybe I am completely alone here, but it has always been the nature of the game to ask for peace when you want peace, when you want war you plan a war & let your deal expire. That's what happened and it is totally within the ethics of the game. Is it balanced with real life ethics, no, but the very nature of the game is not very ethical.

An uninvited territorial incursion by armed forces is considered an act of war anywhere on earth

you are right, and this just makes you doubly guilty of war, your unit 'invaded' my territory long before i invaded yours. I recall saying i would honor your borders as long as you honored mine, well, you did not honor my borders and by your own words are guilty of an act of war, thus inviting this war upon yourself.

In any civilized society(except computer gaming, it seems), both the offering and acceptance of bribes is considered immoral at the very least.

you are quite right, bribing is not the least bit immoral in computer gaming

That's like President Clinton saying 'technically' he didn't have sex with the intern

right again, technically he did not have sex with the intern

Playboy, I am a warmongerer, and if I lose a game, PBEM or other, it's going to be through war. You're not going to get the cultural victory or spaceship while I sit back and watch, I'm going to war with somebody. My general impression about this incident is that the circumstances surrounding the war do not bother you as much as the war itself bothers you because you wanted to remain at peace and go for another victory condition. In order for that to happen, you would have had to go to war and eliminate me first, doesn't that sound like the real world, having to go to war in order to have peace?

whereas you two are obviously engaged in a war of total genocide against the Maya.

the war is only a couple turns long, i haven't even got to a city yet, all i can see is the back side of that javelin thrower who keeps running from me, tell him to come back here and fight. As long as you keep burning cities, yep, we'll keep advancing, sooner or later there's going to be a battle. I am not for one minute going to believe you're going to burn down every last city, i am quite acquainted with the 'abandon cities strategy' sooner or later there's going to be a battle, But as a warmongerer, killing a warrior & sinking a galley just doesn't quench my desire for battle, my immortals need to see blood, they have been kept quiet for far too long.

 

[ironduck]

Ok I'm stepping outside of the game again:

I'm confused I thought we had agreed that everything was cool and that we were just having fun playing the game. It seems to me that this isn't the case, but maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

I thought we agreed before starting the thing that people were free to do what they wanted in the game - some wanted a game where everyone would honour their treaties, some wanted the freedom to do as they prefer.

I don't see a problem with the unpredictability - in fact I find this to be part of the fun of multiplayer. So far no treaties have been broken as far as I understand. I think it is almost inevitable that war will happen in a game with four human players, especially with three of them stranded on the same continent. If someone is found to be dishonourable - hey, all the more fun in trying to kick his ass! Likewise, if someone is found to be on your side, all the more fun building a strong alliance.

It's a game, and if people aren't having fun with it we might as well end it, I just don't understand what the problem is, or if there is one at all..

 

[predesad]

ironduck, i dont think there is really a problem outside of playboy trying to discredit rubberjello's reputation

I don't see a problem with the unpredictability - in fact I find this to be part of the fun of multiplayer. So far no treaties have been broken as far as I understand. I think it is almost inevitable that war will happen in a game with four human players, especially with three of them stranded on the same continent. If someone is found to be dishonourable - hey, all the more fun in trying to kick his ass! Likewise, if someone is found to be on your side, all the more fun building a strong alliance.

I agree with you 100%. How much of a challenge is it if you know there is 0% chance you are going to be double crossed? How much easier does it make the game if you know beforehand there are no threats, all you have to do is get a peace treaty and relax? I prefer the challenge and the intrigue. Diplomacy is my favorite part of PBEM, making deals and even trying to weasel out of them with reputation intact, or as rubberjello did, use the treaty to your advantage and when it expires, move to eliminate your top rival.

 

[ironduck]

Hmm.. is it coincidental that this game has slowed down so much, or is it because there are disagreements in here? If so, I'm hoping we can get past this, I don't think anyone wants to start a fight over this thing.

I've really enjoyed playing this so far, so if you're not enjoying it we can just end it, and if you are it'd be good if you could say so.

 

[predesad]

i just think game has slowed down naturally, turns are taking longer, and war seems to make turns longer because of the planning, additional micromanagement, and other factors.

 

[ironduck]

I hope that's the case

Any news from the war?

 

[Rubberjello]

OUCH! Figging Longbows! I kind of liked his abandon-all-cities strategy better!

But, A Golden Age is a nice bonus also! [dance] :jump:

 

[ironduck]

Did the Mayan longbows wipe out your army?

On this continent the Hittites *still* refuse to sue for peace even though they're reduced to a couple of cities - I kid you not! Never have I encountered a more hostile civ.

 

[Rubberjello]

He hasn't touched my main force. He went after the secondary one. They aren't dead yet though.

The sucky thing about PBEMs is that you don't know what casualties the enemy had during his turn.

 

[predesad]

& you cant see in what general direction units haved moved away

 

[predesad]

okay, where's the turn guys? who's got it? i know you're locked in confusion, but staring at the screen won't help matters, press enter, save, and email.

 

[predesad]

Glad the game is moving again, i guess in the future i should do my duties as a host and check on turns in a more timely manner. From now on if i dont see a turn everyday form this game, which is unusual, i'll send everyone an email, i just dont like to seem pushy or impatient

 

[ironduck]

*ahem*

An announcement from the Celtic

After thousands of years of war our millitary has finally crushed the last outskirts of the once dominant Hittite empire. Their former citizens have happily embraced their new king and look forward to peace and prosperity.

Unfortunately India has no such desire, so conflict is still raging in other parts of this continent. Not to worry, however, they will be pacified.

 

[CaptainCommando]

Ironduck you just can't get a break

 

[predesad]

He's got plenty of breaks, he got to beat up one AI & now another one w/ no interference, while the rest of us are entangled in a diplomatic mess not to mention the war, and who knows who is going to turn on who next. I just discovered an assassination attempt and after much torture, the assailant claimed the Dutch paid him handsomely for the deed.

 

[Rubberjello]

Lies! I see the enemy is sowing deceit and discord whenever the opportunity arises!

However, I must say that the Dutch are quite disappointed with the lack of progress on the Persian side of the alliance. While much blood has been shed while the Dutch army manuveurs against vast amounts of Mayan Longbowmen, the Persians seem intent on dallying in the outback and forcing the Mayans to abandon 1 and 2 pop point cities. Get with the plan!

 

[predesad]

And perhaps if the Dutch were not intent on settling in formerly abandoned Mayan territory and would concentrate upon the war we would be making further progress.

Is it my fault one and two pop cities are all that lies near me?

 

[ironduck]

Mind you, we had no intention to wage war on the Hittites to begin with, they kept aggressing against us, and only finally agreed to make peace when they were down to their very last city. Rather be rid of them once and for all, then! Good heavens, their people deserved a wiser leader.

Are you two done ganging up on the Mayans yet?

 

[ironduck]

Can we hear some updates from the frontlines?