New Found Appreciation For Thieves and Rogues

[IdioticUlt1mara]

So in my current livestream/Let's Play I am playing as Boudica and because she gets so many bonuses towards criminal units I though "what the heck lets try this kind of build out" and you know what Rogues/Thieves/Exiles running around in the early game pillaging the AI improvements, or just straight up "trade missions" makes so much money it is not even funny. I think some turns I am making well over 500gpt just through pillaging AND it slows down the AI a lot too - what makes it even more fun is when the AI decides to put workers in places you just pillage = science plus gold whenever they are killed ^^

 

[JosEPh_II]

Yeah T-brd had much fun when he developed the bad boys. Sometimes I think too much fun.

 

[Noriad2]

Pillage is too easy with fast Rogues. They can move 4 squares, regardless of terrain. You hide in the AI civ's city, move, pillage, move back to the enemy city. Even if he has dogs and plenty of other units he cannot stop you. Except by fortifying on an improvement (but maybe stay-the-hand solves that).
Plus pillaging gives way too much money - up to 130 money for a single mine.

It is by the way possible to build mines and quarries outside of your borders. I'm going to try using a stack of a few workers on a hill in neutral land, guarded by a military unit, and repeatedly build a mine and immediately pillage it with the military unit. See if that is a lucrative exploit.

 

[IdioticUlt1mara]

@Noriad2 that is exactly what I was doing. However I have "Ancient Way Of The Shadows" which makes my rogues strength 5 so they are not half bad at killing enemy units as well - also if you have "stay-the-hand" on I believe you cannot pillage

 

[Noriad2]

@Noriad2 that is exactly what I was doing. However I have "Ancient Way Of The Shadows" which makes my rogues strength 5 so they are not half bad at killing enemy units as well - also if you have "stay-the-hand" on I believe you cannot pillage

You can turn stay-the-hand on and off as many times as you like.
A more effective way to nerve this would be to make pillage impossible if you are on quick march.

 

[JosEPh_II]

More Swiss cheese exploits.......gah!

And Noriad2 it's nerf not nerve.

 

[Thunderbrd]

You can turn stay-the-hand on and off as many times as you like.
A more effective way to nerve this would be to make pillage impossible if you are on quick march.

It might not be very easy to enforce such a rule, but making quick march unavailable to criminals is probably a good idea. They're too lazy by nature for that anyhow. It's funny the differences in perception here. Even as much as y'all are able to make with this pillaging, I have a hard time feeling it's worth messing with. Maybe I haven't played a game where I've been challenged in regards to gold enough.

Another rule that would help to deny exploitation here would be to give no gold for razing improvements that are in neutral territory. It's basically the way we show the money you get from theft and burglary and if the site isn't active, nobody would have any valuables there to take. Not enough at least.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Even if he has dogs and plenty of other units he cannot stop you. Except by fortifying on an improvement (but maybe stay-the-hand solves that).

If they aren't able to catch you in the city and arrest you now and then, the balance may need to be either shifted or an AI problem needs to be addressed. This really shouldn't be so easy to hide out in a city without potentially being discovered and arrested.

 

[Toffer90]

Pillaging should imo cost all movement points.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Pillaging should imo cost all movement points.

Back before forced march, it was something to earn to be able to get your criminals to be able to move out, pillage and move back into the city. With Hide and Seek it's not an automatic death sentence for the criminal units to be caught just outside a city but it is if you're not playing with that option. Certainly it's never worth razing if it always means you will die.

 

[Toffer90]

Back before forced march, it was something to earn to be able to get your criminals to be able to move out, pillage and move back into the city. With Hide and Seek it's not an automatic death sentence for the criminal units to be caught just outside a city but it is if you're not playing with that option. Certainly it's never worth razing if it always means you will die.

Perhaps not, what I would really prefer is that movement promotions were fewer and harder to get, but I didn't mention it as I thought it would be a less popular suggestion.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Perhaps not, what I would really prefer is that movement promotions were fewer and harder to get, but I didn't mention it as I thought it would be a less popular suggestion.

It's worth some discussion with proposals and counterproposals. I'm finding that the status ones are a bit disruptive at times and may need to be better controlled. It's almost impossible to get the AI to use them anywhere near as effectively as the human player too so it becomes a human cheat almost.

 

[Toffer90]

It's worth some discussion with proposals and counterproposals. I'm finding that the status ones are a bit disruptive at times and may need to be better controlled. It's almost impossible to get the AI to use them anywhere near as effectively as the human player too so it becomes a human cheat almost.

In the "My take on stuff" modmod I made the quick march (+2 MP) require Drill I promotion.
I also removed the horseback specific quick march that gives +3 MP. I found it too disruptive.

The forced march (+1 MP) I made require Combat I or Survival I promos.
Survival I doesn't exist in C2C though, modmod only.

 

[Thunderbrd]

In the "My take on stuff" modmod I made the quick march (+2 MP) require Drill I promotion.
I also removed the horseback specific quick march that gives +3 MP. I found it too disruptive.

The forced march (+1 MP) I made require Combat I or Survival I promos.
Survival I doesn't exist in C2C though, modmod only.

I wouldn't be against all that, but I'd still like to see criminals lose access in all situations.

We should probably post this suggestion in the main forum somewhere.

 

[Toffer90]

Another thing I did was make all criminal units respect terrain/feature movement penalties.

 

[IdioticUlt1mara]

I think "stay-the-hand" should remove all movement points if you turn it off.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Another thing I did was make all criminal units respect terrain/feature movement penalties.

Problem is I need them to be able to get into cities before they get seen and caught and the closer they get, the easier that becomes. Again, being seen just outside the city is a death sentence.

I think "stay-the-hand" should remove all movement points if you turn it off.

This would greatly frustrate players using wanderers to have to waste the first round. It would be tough to find a way to keep them from having it on by default - maybe.