New Game Options: Leaderhead Levelups and No Positive Traits on Game Start

[Thunderbrd]

The SVN update I'm pushing right now includes two new game options, my holiday gift to C2C! Hopefully you guys like these as much as I believe you will based on so many conversations about having something like them in the game.


Leaderhead Levelups

What this game option does is allows your leader to gain more traits as the game progresses. Much like a unit (which is a future project still), your leader gains experience and can gain levels that come with new trait selections.

However, Experience Points, for a leader, are measured in National Culture levels. The amount required to earn a new trait is adjusted by game speed but at its base, on Normal game speed, you gain new traits when your National Culture has reached the following levels:

1000
10,000
100,000
1,000,000
10,000,000
100,000,000

and so on, continuing to add a zero after each new level. The game speed itself then modifies that amount based on a percentage that stems from a new tag there.

In game, you will notice that under this option, the popup that displays when you hover the mouse over the flag will always list your leader's traits, your leader's level, how much National Culture you have, what it will take to get to the next level, and how much you still have left to earn to get there.

You'll also notice that you can hold the shift button down and move the mouse off the flag then onto the flag again to get a trait to show its full breakdown (normally it won't show any trait descriptions, just the traits you have.) As you continue to repeat this process, you'll cycle through all the various traits listed there, each one being given its full description one at a time so that you can actually read the details there. It's a bit hard to explain here so just try it... you'll see what I mean. Not having anywhere you can see the full breakdown outside of the pedia was not cool but listing all our lengthy c2c trait descriptions was too much so this is a happy in-between solution.

This should work with or without these gameoptions but you'll need to turn on the trait display on the flag in the bug options to get it to work there. Otherwise you can find the same effects on your leader's icon hoverover popup in the diplomacy advisor.


When you've reached the point where your leader has 'leveled', you get a selection list popup at the beginning of the round that lists the traits you may select. Included there is your leader's negative trait if you are allowing your leaders to have them (not using the NO negative traits option) and selecting that trait will mean your leader has gotten past this hangup.

You'll see some new buttons for traits on that popup and some of them are still subject to some edits in the future. Sadly, I cannot seem to figure out how to get a hoverover popup on those buttons so you can see what the trait details are when making a selection... so its advised to do some research before you must make a selection so you can pre-determine what trait you wish to select when it comes time to do so. (Selection Popups like that don't allow you to access any other screens while they are prompting you to make a selection... If anyone can help me to make it possible to get a help popup display or at least a rightclick link to the pedia to help make a determination, I'm open to some help here!)

SGTSlick and I have been discussing this for a while now and I'd like to let y'all know that eventually we'll have special traits that can be accessed by various trait prereqs (so you'll have to have certain traits to gain access to other more powerful ones, not the least of which a second or possibly even third step along the same trait line, such as Aggressive II for example.) But for now, it should still be fun to have more trait selections being earned in general.



No Positive Traits on Gamestart
Now why on Earth would you want no positive traits you ask? Sure you can use this option to eliminate all positive traits from all leaders, and in combination with No Negative traits, you can eliminate ALL leader traits from your games.

But mostly this option is meant to interact with Leaderhead Levelups.

If you don't want any leaders to start with any positive traits, but would like all to select them IN-GAME, you can choose this option. With Leaderhead Levelups ON, you'll find that you get your first trait selection at 10 National Culture, and your second at 100 (both adjusted by gamespeed of course... these are at Normal gamespeed.)

Traits now have Flavors and those flavors are used for leaders to determine which traits they are drawn to. There's some random elements in their selection process so I wouldn't count on leaders always choosing the same traits from one game to the next either. But if you REALLY want a game where you can't make any assumptions, go ahead and take Random Personalities as an option as well and see what you get!

This option structure is designed to harmonize with the upcoming Civilization Traits project as well and I've added a tag for the designation of Civilization Traits to keep them out of the selectable pool for leader levels. And since some there wanted leader traits removed, these options can allow for a combination of both styles of trait earnings or for only one or the other at player option.

Hmm... I think that pretty much covers it. I know that the new traits tags have a bit of debugging work still to come so bear with me there.

Otherwise, any questions, comments, concerns?

 

[Sgtslick]

 

[Sgtslick]

But for now, it should still be fun to have more trait selections being earned in general.

One of the best benefits to this will being able to balance the traits WAY better. Certain negatives for instance seem 'too harsh' and some positives too strong, particularly in relation to the beginning of the game and during ancient era and such. This allows us to have certain features not 'kick in' until an appropriate time.

A good example would be ++ Fairly crippling early on but nearly inconsequential later on. Instead we can skip the early + but be able to make it 10x as strong later on (so it has impact on gameplay).
-- just wanted to mention that.. anyway, you'da man thunderbrd, check this out properly after some sleep.. haha

 

[Thunderbrd]

One of the best benefits to this will being able to balance the traits WAY better. Certain negatives for instance seem 'too harsh' and some positives too strong, particularly in relation to the beginning of the game and during ancient era and such. This allows us to have certain features not 'kick in' until an appropriate time.

A good example would be ++ Fairly crippling early on but nearly inconsequential later on. Instead we can skip the early + but be able to make it 10x as strong later on (so it has impact on gameplay).
-- just wanted to mention that.. anyway, you'da man thunderbrd, check this out properly after some sleep.. haha

The problem is most of that comes from negative traits which you start with. I've been thinking that perhaps negative traits should be introduced with an event at some point. One to give the leader the negative trait the leader is supposed to have by his definition, and others down the way to challenge the player to either take a negative trait or suffer something worse in the short term (or pick from a list of negative traits making selecting one of them mandatory). Doing this may mean we'll have to adjust the trait earning rate to compensate for some expected negative pickups down the way.

For those working in the events region, setHasTrait works for the player now (exposed to python) just like setHasPromotion works for units. And the boolean isNegativeTrait should also be exposed (but if it isn't, just let me know and I'll make sure to get it working for you.)

Otherwise, some of the negative traits I've proposed would be a hell of a tough thing to overcome in that first stage of the game.

 

[Sgtslick]

I like the idea of pure positives to begin with, selecting your first choice(s) @ 1000 - but when its time for 10,000 - the negatives from your 1,000 choice kick in, and so forth 10,000> 100,000. Not sure exactly, but perhaps this could be away around things.. It kinda seems logical, like as a consequence of your past, this is the result.. Now how shall we progress in the future..

These 'National Culture' numbers would obviously need to be tested/tweaked/balanced.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That'd be next to impossible to establish unfortunately. However, at particular level intervals, I COULD make it then that you must also select your first Negative trait.

But I think it might be better via events. We could make each negative trait keyed into a particular circumstance. For example: "You just lost a war you started and took peace as quickly as you could, therefore, in fear of future invasion attempts going just as poorly, your leader has grown Timid and his new policies now reflect this unfortunate fact."

 

[Hydromancerx]

It's a bit hard to explain here so just try it... you'll see what I mean.

A screenshot maybe?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sadly, I still don't know how to screenshot without the snip tool...

 

[Sgtslick]

When you've reached the point where your leader has 'leveled', you get a selection list popup at the beginning of the round that lists the traits you may select. Included there is your leader's negative trait if you are allowing your leaders to have them (not using the NO negative traits option) and selecting that trait will mean your leader has gotten past this hangup

Isn't it similar to what I said? All we'd be doing was switching around the composition of the traits. Anway ill look more closely later.

 

[strategyonly]

Now this, No Positive Traits on Gamestart, sounds so intriguing, what a NEW concept, WOW i am blown away, you are thinking OUTSIDE the box, darn, way to go .

 

[Hydromancerx]

Sadly, I still don't know how to screenshot without the snip tool...

Can't you just push the "Print Screen Button" on your keyboard and then look for the picture under the "ScreenShots" folder in your Beyond the Sword game folder?

 

[strategyonly]

Can't you just push the "Print Screen Button" on your keyboard and then look for the picture under the "ScreenShots" in your Beyond the Sword game folder?

If your in the game, YES, that is the only way to do it, that i know of.

 

[BlueGenie]

I do have a suggestion here actually considering that this initial system seems to favour larger nations over smaller nations which in turn will make the gap between the more advanced and the less advanced nations even larger. It's just easier to get X total culture with 20 cities than it is with 5 cities, regardless of how one turns it.

Would the gain towards a new Leader Level each turn being total accumulated Culture divided by the amount of cities that nation has be a more fair way to increase in Leader Level?

That way instead of favouring the nations expanding fast and quickly/dirty and getting a large amount of cities a nation needs to concentrate on Culture to gain levels.

Of course the actual numbers for gaining levels would have to be recalibrated then. Sorry.

Cheers

 

[T C]

Cool idea. I'm going to start a new game now to test out "no starting traits".

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

So how is your "Leaderhead Levelups" the same or different from "Dynamic Traits"?

 

[strategyonly]

@Thunderbrd

So how is your "Leaderhead Levelups" the same or different from "Dynamic Traits"?

Oh WOW I have never seen those before, wish i would have, they look and sound great!

 

[Sgtslick]

Dynamic traits uses technology as kind of event triggers. So if/when a civ researches a tech first - there trait dynamically changes/increases. This system has nothing to do with tech, instead will revolve around culture (possibly events).

Perhaps culture isn't a perfect mechanism, but it seems better (more realistic) - that the trait levelling system is something that is 'earned'. The dynamic traits system is flawed as its all just about who gets certain techs first, which is kinda 2-dimensional. I do like the idea of the traits evolving with respect to time (turns), more so than anything else, but whatever, this is still a huge step up from the limitation we had currently.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Isn't it similar to what I said? All we'd be doing was switching around the composition of the traits. Anway ill look more closely later.

Yeah, I'd have to send another selection popup for adding a negative trait like that. But I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to base it on the same scale you're gaining traits on (National Culture level) because I don't want it to feel like a race towards bad things happening. So we'll have to figure out some other ways to trigger the need to select a negative trait.

Now this, No Positive Traits on Gamestart, sounds so intriguing, what a NEW concept, WOW i am blown away, you are thinking OUTSIDE the box, darn, way to go .

Thank you sir Hope you enjoy. Oh... I forgot to mention on this last update - there's also a new NO NUKES option for ya

Can't you just push the "Print Screen Button" on your keyboard and then look for the picture under the "ScreenShots" folder in your Beyond the Sword game folder?

That's built into the game and the shots go to that folder? Those are the two things I did not know. Cool. I'll have to try it later Thanks! Perhaps I will start using that a lot more around here now.

I do have a suggestion here actually considering that this initial system seems to favour larger nations over smaller nations which in turn will make the gap between the more advanced and the less advanced nations even larger. It's just easier to get X total culture with 20 cities than it is with 5 cities, regardless of how one turns it.

Would the gain towards a new Leader Level each turn being total accumulated Culture divided by the amount of cities that nation has be a more fair way to increase in Leader Level?

That way instead of favouring the nations expanding fast and quickly/dirty and getting a large amount of cities a nation needs to concentrate on Culture to gain levels.

Of course the actual numbers for gaining levels would have to be recalibrated then. Sorry.

Cheers

I'm not seeing the need to penalize one strategy over another here. The reasons to use National Culture levels in the first place are numerous. Believe it or not, favoring the smaller nation over the larger is actually one of them. If you think about it, the biggest reason a nation (usually a human player in this case) fails to go out for the ultimate landgrab and stays a bit smaller than its neighbors is due to the building of wonders. Not just a few but as many as you can amass. And when you do that, you end up with a small, compact, but powerful nation and the challenge at that point is defending your glittering cities cuz everyone wants them now and they assume you've been lax on your military. That small nation is far more culturally powerful than a much much much larger nation that has lots of cities but very little quality in any of them.

Sure size matters, but that factor is more and more as time goes on, which is going to be the same with research, gold, military, anything really. At least now with the leveling leaderheads in play, you have REASON to continue to care what your cultural output is in your core interior cities that have no more room to expand cultural boundaries, you have REASON to want to adjust the slider to culture (beyond just trying to adjust for some emergency happiness during war), and you have REASON to build culturally productive buildings when that's all they do. Finally... culture matters again and can stand on similar footing to Gold, Research, and Espionage in value.

The challenge in this system, as well as it is in Research and Espionage, is to get the most you can... and sometimes the smaller nation is a better, more efficient, higher quality factory for all Commerces, particularly culture (given that usually its the cultural buildings that are put off in the mad rush to capture land!)

@Thunderbrd

So how is your "Leaderhead Levelups" the same or different from "Dynamic Traits"?

I'm running out of time to give a good answer to that but in short... your game choices don't influence what traits you get. You start with your normal starting traits unless you select other options to go with it like the No Positive Traits on Gamestart option or the No Negative Traits option. As you reach the key points on National Culture, you are prompted to select a trait and that trait is PERMANENTLY yours for the rest of the game - there's no 'trait decay' as has been included in the Dynamic Traits system.

However, there's some similarities too... you will also be able to 'levelup' existing traits and if you have two traits at lvl 2 or 3 (still under some consideration there) you should be able to unlock a 'prestige trait' that can only be accessed by that combination. Some traits will become available for selection based on tech prereqs as well.

I've made this an option primarily so that if others had other ways they wanted to go about things with traits, those could be alternatives to this system. Everyone seems to have their own ideal. I would HATE to have my trait selections be dependent entirely on my actions in game because I would most likely play rather contradictorily to what I want my trait benefits to give...

 

[strategyonly]

Dynamic traits uses technology as kind of event triggers. So if/when a civ researches a tech first - there trait dynamically changes/increases. This system has nothing to do with tech, instead will revolve around culture (possibly events).

Now i am really generally intrigued by what you just mentioned "Culture" i really like that idea, anyone else?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Oh WOW I have never seen those before, wish i would have, they look and sound great!

Really? It has been brought up a bunch of times in various C2C topics. I think even in a PM to the C2C Team once.

That's built into the game and the shots go to that folder? Those are the two things I did not know. Cool. I'll have to try it later Thanks! Perhaps I will start using that a lot more around here now.
.

Yup! It saves them in JPG form so you can either directly upload them to the forum or re-size, crop or any other manipulation you want to do with it in a graphics program. For instance some edit it in MSPaint or GIMP and put arrows or circles on where problem areas are in the picture. Since I have Photoshop I usually resize or crop it a little since the image is as big as your screen. But you could leave it as is and it should work fine to post on this forum.

I do find it funny that you can do all this amazing complex modding and did not know about taking simple screenshots.

I'm running out of time to give a good answer to that but in short... your game choices don't influence what traits you get. You start with your normal starting traits unless you select other options to go with it like the No Positive Traits on Gamestart option or the No Negative Traits option. As you reach the key points on National Culture, you are prompted to select a trait and that trait is PERMANENTLY yours for the rest of the game - there's no 'trait decay' as has been included in the Dynamic Traits system.

However, there's some similarities too... you will also be able to 'levelup' existing traits and if you have two traits at lvl 2 or 3 (still under some consideration there) you should be able to unlock a 'prestige trait' that can only be accessed by that combination. Some traits will become available for selection based on tech prereqs as well.

I've made this an option primarily so that if others had other ways they wanted to go about things with traits, those could be alternatives to this system. Everyone seems to have their own ideal. I would HATE to have my trait selections be dependent entirely on my actions in game because I would most likely play rather contradictorily to what I want my trait benefits to give...

Thanks for explaining. How that sounds a lot like D&D classes. Especially the "Prestige" traits. Note that's a good thing. Also my asking was so you could clearly state how this was different from "Dynamic Trait" system. From what I have seen your system looks much better.

Keep up the great work dude!