New Improvement Tags: <FeatureChange> & <BonusChange>

[Thunderbrd]

I'm not ruling out that there could be some things I haven't accounted for - it's possible that the validation check I'm calling for also demands that there be no feature already there. I wanted to take a look at this right away today but it'll have to wait a minute. I'm working out some critical problems with the new healer AI.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am not well, so I wont be doing anything for a couple of days, just to be safe.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Just reading the code I'm interacting with more thoroughly shows that:
1) Correct varieties should automatically be added (sure seems to be that's what a given segment is for.)

2) It should not be impossible to set a feature with this tag even if a feature exists there.

3) It can immediately remove the improvement built once the feature is changed since it may invalidate the improvement - Looks like I'll need to write a workaround for this case. This shouldn't change the fact that the feature is set properly though and wouldn't be an issue if the improvement was going to be immediately removed anyhow.

I'll have to make a really strong testable situation here and make sure it's working as intended but it reads right for the most part.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I had a surprise day off work here today so this was the first thing on my agenda to thoroughly test. It looks like I nested all the coding for this within brackets that ignore it completely. Oops. Fixing and retesting. I should be able to commit the fix within an hr I believe.

 

[stoferb]

Sounds like very useful tags Thunder. Speaking of salt being so easy to get that you might aswell scrap it as a resource. I think alot of resources could be scrapped on the same grounds if only some other way of implementing 'local resources' were possible. Stone, wood and mud are three obvious examples. Extra costs or discounts on buildings and wonders obviously represent the extra cost of having to procure these resources where local supply isn't readily available, regardless if it means scrambling together what little wood is available in your mostly treeless land or getting it from some other city or civ e.t.c. I'm thinking automatic buildings replacing many of the resources that are (or in the case of stone should be) way too common to matter that much.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, now that we're getting as intricate as we are we really will need to develop a volumetric resource mechanism soon!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

To get rid of all the python I think we need a <TerrainChanges> also for the terriform part. I'll have to check so hold off as I am still unwell so may be wrong headed at the moment.

Yeah, now that we're getting as intricate as we are we really will need to develop a volumetric resource mechanism soon!

Platyping posted a mod which provides a very simplistic volumetric system. It has one big problem the AI doesn't know anything about it. A minor problem is that it does it nationally so the consumables, as they are called, are available to every city. Something we probably don't want until the means of transporting the consumables is available.

I have been thinking on this for awhile and may have come up with a concept using what we have now for the player only. If I can just figure out which would be a good consumable to start with, horses? obsidian? It needs to be a one or two step consumable to start with.

 

[Faustmouse]

What do you mean by consumable? Aren't all resources consumables so to speak?

Do you want something that is consumed at a steady rate, like, for example, Bread or Milk?

Or something that is consumed while building units? Horses are fine.

I really love the concept of volumetric resources! Maybe electricity could be converted to a resource then. This could make things more interesting if a single Coal-fired dynamo isn't enough anymore to supply your 50.000.000 inhabitants megacity. We have a spreadsheet *somewhere* with power consumption and production rates for most buildings.

 

[Thunderbrd]

To get rid of all the python I think we need a <TerrainChanges> also for the terriform part. I'll have to check so hold off as I am still unwell so may be wrong headed at the moment.

Interesting concept - I should've thought about that when I was doing these tags - BUT then again it would be very easily implemented.

Platyping posted a mod which provides a very simplistic volumetric system. It has one big problem the AI doesn't know anything about it. A minor problem is that it does it nationally so the consumables, as they are called, are available to every city. Something we probably don't want until the means of transporting the consumables is available.

I have been thinking on this for awhile and may have come up with a concept using what we have now for the player only. If I can just figure out which would be a good consumable to start with, horses? obsidian? It needs to be a one or two step consumable to start with.

I think this is a HUGE project if we do it right. I say we wait until at least after we've got the Nomadic Start hammered out (which I do feel is nearing.)

What do you mean by consumable? Aren't all resources consumables so to speak?

Do you want something that is consumed at a steady rate, like, for example, Bread or Milk?

Or something that is consumed while building units? Horses are fine.

I really love the concept of volumetric resources! Maybe electricity could be converted to a resource then. This could make things more interesting if a single Coal-fired dynamo isn't enough anymore to supply your 50.000.000 inhabitants megacity. We have a spreadsheet *somewhere* with power consumption and production rates for most buildings.

I'm still very interested in making electricity a property - I really liked some of the concepts there and I'm getting good enough with programming to start looking at some of the manipulations that will need to be done for that.

The main thing with both of these is that they are major projects. At the moment I'm trying to refine the mod a bit, working on some AI stuff and trying to get to the point where I can wrap up the Naval Review project - which in itself still has a number of new mechanism issues to sort out. Of course, right NOW I'm trying to simply debug and improve the AI in preparation for the next release. For the most part new ground for this version is finished.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think this is a HUGE project if we do it right.

The point of a couple of fast prototypes is that we could quickly tell which is the correct or wrong way to go. That is the point of prototypes, they are fast and throw away.

I say we wait until at least after we've got the Nomadic Start hammered out (which I do feel is nearing.)

There are two big problems which need to be solved before we can even start the Nomadic Start project.

One is the UI and I have done nothing on this for 3 months because of the animal review and some other stuff.

The other is major only in that without it you can't play and that is the fact that the game is over if you don't have any cities or units than settle a city. We need this to change to include the class of units we are going to have as nomadic tribes which are not cities and can't settle a city but will be able to upgrade to a unit that can make a city eventually.

 

[Thunderbrd]

My own design plan for Nomadic Start requires no further UI and it shouldn't be tough to fix the problem noted. It's the rest of it all that will be fairly extensive.

 

[Harrier]

Sounds like very useful tags Thunder. Speaking of salt being so easy to get that you might aswell scrap it as a resource.

Sorry I disagree. Salt is in abundance now, but was not in earlier era's.

Salt was prized by the ancient Hebrews, the Greeks, the Romans, the Byzantines, the Hittites and the Egyptians. Salt became an important article of trade and was transported by boat across the Mediterranean Sea, along specially built salt roads, and across the Sahara in camel caravans. The scarcity and universal need for salt has led nations to go to war over salt and use it to raise tax revenues. Salt is also used in religious ceremonies and has other cultural significance.

Removing it takes away from the stratagy of the initial era's.

What may be a useful mechanism, is for a resouce to become redundant (i.e. removed from the map) and be replaced by an automatic building in the cities that already have it. This could be done at either an era change or specific technology. Civs without salt can then build a building that provides it.

Would this be possible to implement?

 

[Faustmouse]

Sorry I disagree. Salt is in abundance now, but was not in earlier era's.
Removing it takes away from the stratagy of the initial era's.

Then some buildings should be tweaked so that salt producing buildings comes later in the tree. Not a big problem.

What may be a useful mechanism, is for a resouce to become redundant (i.e. removed from the map) and be replaced by an automatic building in the cities that already have it. This could be done at either an era change or specific technology. Civs without salt can then build a building that provides it.

Would this be possible to implement?

It definetly IS possible (with current tags etc) in terms of doable. However, since Hydro and I are pretty busy these days there is nobody really keeping an eye on buildings. If you want to step in here and make a nicely drawn out plan on how to adress the salt thingy - iE early only salt from the map resource, later then a building like Salt Trader and very late an abundant salt producing building (basically what we have now) - then I could make it.

I remember Civ3 had Salpeter (is this the right english word?) for early gunpowder units, but in the industrial age the more modern gunpowder units didn't require it anymore because it was abundant.

The other is major only in that without it you can't play and that is the fact that the game is over if you don't have any cities or units than settle a city. We need this to change to include the class of units we are going to have as nomadic tribes which are not cities and can't settle a city but will be able to upgrade to a unit that can make a city eventually.

We currently have a game option "require complete kill" were you survive as long as you have any unit. This could be used to fix this problem. Even if you have just a Stonethrower left, it will get eaten by an animal pretty soon. Else, it wouldn't be to hard to have an event checking for any "settler" units and if it can't find any, kill the rest of your units.

I'm still very interested in making electricity a property - I really liked some of the concepts there and I'm getting good enough with programming to start looking at some of the manipulations that will need to be done for that.

Thats cool to hear I'll finish my labwork and vacations by april this year and two months after my thesis. Then I'm keen to help you on the electrical property, nomadic start or volumetric ressource thingy as good as I can (until I start my PhD and need to see if I have much more time for this in around October...)

 

[Harrier]

Then some buildings should be tweaked so that salt producing buildings comes later in the tree. Not a big problem.

It definetly IS possible (with current tags etc) in terms of doable. However, since Hydro and I are pretty busy these days there is nobody really keeping an eye on buildings. If you want to step in here and make a nicely drawn out plan on how to adress the salt thingy - iE early only salt from the map resource, later then a building like Salt Trader and very late an abundant salt producing building (basically what we have now) - then I could make it.

I have a few ideas and I'll have a look eventually. But not in the immediate future.

At the moment I am working on my SEM+ map - lots of changes there. It will be a bigger map. Half way between Standard and Large.

I thought I might call the new map SEM++, but I doubt many would appreciate the pun.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

We currently have a game option "require complete kill" were you survive as long as you have any unit. This could be used to fix this problem. Even if you have just a Stonethrower left, it will get eaten by an animal pretty soon. Else, it wouldn't be to hard to have an event checking for any "settler" units and if it can't find any, kill the rest of your units.

Slightly more interesting than that would be, doing that check and turning every unit into a barb/ barbarian civ / something that's not "you" . (Relevant for multiplayer.)

It could be like representing how your people have lost their home. Like the Carthaginians when they found out Rome had gone and ended Carthage.
Sure they still lived, but they had no home anymore. They had no people. They weren't Carthaginian.

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I have said elsewhere that the proliferation of special buildings is kind of an eyesore. But even worse would be producing something not at all part of the base game. I mean, it's an opinion, but to me it's a matter of elegance whether or not C2C can be described in terms of unmodded Civ IV semantics. Special buildings and resources are neat and clever. Creating an adapted third category like "Conditions" for buildings like "Civic: Militia" would be visual sugar that still resolves to a building under the hood. But adding volumetric resources, adding something other than buildings and units and tile features, ... some magic is lost.

As this is an opinion I don't see how to justify in an objective way, I don't expect to get into a conversation about it.

 

[stoferb]

Sorry I disagree. Salt is in abundance now, but was not in earlier era's.



Removing it takes away from the stratagy of the initial era's.

What may be a useful mechanism, is for a resouce to become redundant (i.e. removed from the map) and be replaced by an automatic building in the cities that already have it. This could be done at either an era change or specific technology. Civs without salt can then build a building that provides it.

Would this be possible to implement?

Actually I wasn't thinking salt would belong in this new category of resources I suggested, your post about salt merely inspired the idea. It's all those tiny ones currently in the game like 'vines', 'ropes', 'mud','bark', 'hats' and so on.

Cool to hear about those consumables. I have no specific ideas about what to start with but I think this entire class of resources should in general not get too specific. For gems, goldjewllery, silverjewellery, pearls e.t.c. are preferrably lumped together into 'jewellry'. Two areas were it would be neat are with regards to slavery and warfare. Slaves as resources would require a complete rehaul of the current implementation of slavery but arms trade would perhaps be easier. In the modern age oil is a obvious candidate for a consumable.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

OK back to the original topic Improvements changing Features. Thunderbrd thanks for getting the beacon on coral and reef working. You did not put in the pillage stuff though.

I now need to extend it to the lighthouse and to the Great Barrier Reef.

First remember a movement cost is the cost to enter a plot even if it has a movement of 100 and your unit only has a movement of 1 it can enter the plot in one turn and exit it in the next.

Coral, Reef and Great Barrier Reef have a movement cost of between 6 and 10. A beacon halves this and a lighthouse removes it altogether.

Coral, Reef and Great Barrier Reef damage ships by 25% for each turn they end in there. Beacon reduces this to 15% and Lighthouse to 0%.

I have removed the defense bonus on coral. It should never have had one. It does explain why units were resting there until they sank.

Next are all the terraform functions including the early one and then to look at the event that burns forest to use the burnt forest feature.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It's nice to see its working though isn't it? You're right I did forget that part... sorry about that.

One thing you noted was the defense in reefs... I may have done that, the intention being that if you're a fairly stationary boat in the region or one that has some local familiarity, you can rather easily use the enemy's lesser familiarity with the area to their great disadvantage. Or if you're a sea animal in the area that can swim around unhindered, boats pursuing you are going to likely have some serious problems. But the AI factor you point out... that's an issue with this approach.

I can think of some other ways to implement this effect that may avoid the AI issue and it may be possible if I don't give the feature a flat defense modifier. Possibly this means just giving the defensive bonus for that feature to the same units that are immune to the damage.

I haven't quite sorted out how to establish an immunity to that type of terrain damage yet (will just take a little time and research focused on the issue which I have not yet invested.) I'm not sure if it's as straightforward as the way its done for deserts etc... But it should be done because I have a hard time understanding why a reef shark would take damage in a reef for example. And it would be very cool I think to have pirates be uniquely able to use damaging naval terrain to their advantage in defense.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yes it is great it is working. I now need to figure out the basic forestry and terraform stuff to use this instead then remove the python module.