New low in AI

[Random Passerby]

The thing that annoys me most about the AI is its use of artillery units. Normally the AI civs just build a few odd catapults and cannons and leave them in key cities for the defensive support fire bonus, but every now and again the AI can actually be observed sending out cannons and artillery in stacks of offensive units and using them to bombard offensively.

Knowing this, I decided to see if I could coerce the AI into doing this more often. I went into the editor and gave all land bombardment units 1 attack and 1 defense, and under "AI Strategies" flagged both offense and defense. I also increased the strength of catapults and cannon to make them more attractive.

In my test game, I was on a smallish continent with just France, and I was disappointed to find that they had built only a single catapult and, as usual, just left it in the capital defending. However, I continued on with the game through the industrial era, went for Espionage fairly often and planted a few spies. To my delight, all the civs I checked on had built quite a bit more cannon than I'd ever seen before, and as I got to Replaceable Parts I saw them building even more artillery. I attacked Persia just across a tiny strait and watched with glee as Xerxes rolled several artillery units towards a captured city to counterattack...

...and attacked with them head-on rather than bombarding, 1 attack artillery vs. 10 defense infantry fortified in a city on a hill. As cool as it is to watch artillery engaged in actual battle, this definitely takes the cake for lamest thing I've ever seen the AI do. Ships use bombardment fairly well; the AI will often have weaker elements of its navy bombard more powerful ships rather than attack them outright, yet apparently there's no way to get the AI to use ground artillery in a similar manner.

 

[Jaybe]

You made a good attempt there to try to goad the AI into using artillery. Now we know. Have you tried it while NOT giving them attack and defense strengths??

It may be that what you want can't be done through the Editor, though perhaps things will be different in PTW.

 

[TheDS]

Don't tell them that they are offensive units! Take those extra AI flags back out!

They don't build catapults? Do you? Aren't they rather a waste of time? They don't do much for you. I never build them. Sometimes, I don't even build cannons, but I LOVE artillery, and I LOOOOOVE radar artillery.

 

[Random Passerby]

1. Note that I said I increased the power of catapults/cannons, and yes, they were plenty useful; probably a bit too much, perhaps, although it was fairly late in the game and the computer had been kind enough to clear a path through the jungle for me.

2. As far as usage in regular game, 20 catapults + a few thousand gold + Replaceable Parts = insant carnage.

 

[sgrig]

Has anyone ever seen AI use bombers against your ground units or cities?

So far I've only see bombers bombard terrain and ships, but not cities or ground units.

I think overall Firaxis should fully reprogramme the AI use of bombard units because it just does not use them properly.

 

[Grey Fox]

Even though I never build catapults or cannons, so are they good in defensive matters, against troops on land. Why do you think you miss so much with them when you attack against cities? That's becaue they have a HUGE bombardment defense. When a catapult defends it usually, like 1 in 2, damage the Attacker, which can help you win the battle. Here is an example:

A Veteran Horseman attacks your unwalled town located on plains. You are defending with a single Veteran Spearman.

The odds of the Veteran Horseman to win is 44.8%. If you damage this horseman with your catapult, the chance is lowered to: 30% lowered by 15%

So you (and I) might wanna reconsider building catapults. And they are also upgradable all the way to Artillary, so when you can build artillary you should have some of these to upgrade, as money arn't a problem then.

Well. Are they worth building or not? I think I will build some in MP anyway...

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

@Grey Fox: right on!

generally, the AI doesn't know how to use bombardment unit! For example, they do not try to cut off resources by cutting all roads to it but only by cutting the road on it. If they can't hit that, the resource stays connected.....

 

[royfurr]

HiYa Random Passerby-

Maybe try this-
Boost the bombardment strength a bit
Leave Attack/Defense as zero
Check the Offensive flag in the editor AND be sure the Defensive flag (presumebly thats what it is now??) is UNcheckefd.
Leave your other units alone.

Another option is additionally to the above, tag most other units as Defensive, maybe only with swordsmen as offensive. And mounted units as defensive only. These later of course will definitely skew things, and are certainly unrealistic, but they leave the AI little choice but to attack with bombardment. Be sure to leave at lesat some foot units as offensive to accompany the bombardment untis on their foray. (And send a defender with them just on good practice!)

I'd think that would force the ai to bombardment prior to ground attack, but the real question is, what balance of just which foot units need to be offensive or defensive and NOT take away the tendency to do so. I understand that in making all units both A/D and with 1/1 strengths, you were trying to remove the variable, but I think that might have actually hurt your chances- the ai COULD still use foot and mounted units for attack, and had no reason to select any unit over another- equal chances for all. Here, take it away for ALMOST all of them, and then gradualy add it back and see how things change.

Don't know if this will help but I think it might. You might have to make a lot of test trials to see, though. This is actually a pretty big project.

Good luck.

 

[SCPete]

Originally posted by sgrig
Has anyone ever seen AI use bombers against your ground units or cities?

So far I've only see bombers bombard terrain and ships, but not cities or ground units.

I think overall Firaxis should fully reprogramme the AI use of bombard units because it just does not use them properly.

I have had a few improvments destroyed or citizen loss by AI Bombers but that stops immediately after a station a F15 in that city. I have also seen enemy bombers attack my sea and land units(could be because I have Lethal bombard turn on) As for land units bombarding others...nope. I even have land lethal bombard turn on for Artillary and land+ sea lethal bombard for Radar Artillary.

 

[bobgote]

I find that the AI uses bombard (all forms) against my land units, and will also use it to pillage my improvements. I have had to take cities (in my regent game) with 4 artillery in them, even the small ones have 2, and the AI uses them a lot.

 

[Random Passerby]

Unfortunately, due to the way the editor works, a unit MUST have attack and defense greater than 0 to be considered an AI offensive or AI defensive unit. AI offense/defense just doesn't mesh with AI artillery... I think the best one could do would be to flag "build often" for artillery and take out most or all of each civ's other "build often" flags.

 

[royfurr]

Originally posted by Random Passerby
Unfortunately, due to the way the editor works, a unit MUST have attack and defense greater than 0 to be considered an AI offensive or AI defensive unit. AI offense/defense just doesn't mesh with AI artillery... I think the best one could do would be to flag "build often" for artillery and take out most or all of each civ's other "build often" flags.

Drag. That frells my ideas. Aw well. Back to the drawing board.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by sgrig
Has anyone ever seen AI use bombers against your ground units or cities?

So far I've only see bombers bombard terrain and ships, but not cities or ground units.

I think overall Firaxis should fully reprogramme the AI use of bombard units because it just does not use them properly.

Indeed. And I have NOT seen the AI ever use bombardment units in land combat, that despite having told the AI civs to "build more artillery"; they just left them in the cities. Sloppy programming, no doubt.

I have edited up a few points all bombardment units. Cannons IN FACT were the prime offensive mover in the Napoleonic Wars period, not cavalry or musketmen. They should be stronger.


BTW, catapults, and the even better trebuchets (not in the game) were in reality not built in cities and dragged around all over the map. They were built on the scene of a siege and used against enemy fortifications and walls. Catapults were rarely used in open field battles - but in Civ 3 that is where they are most effective. This Firaxis has it backwards and it should be changed.

And we need AUTOMATED bombardment, especially for naval units.

 

[Dark Sheer]

The AI do use the bombardment units! In one of the succession game (I think it was LK18) we accidentally lost 22 artillery to the AI (It was captured back some 10 turns later) and the AI uses the whole stack to destroy improvement and also to bombard a stack of 5 battleship all the way to 1hp (that was back in 1.17f with no lethal bombardment). So basically the AI do use bombardment unit effectively when they have them. However, the AI do not build that many bombardment units. So the solution might lies in how to make the AI build more bombardment units.

 

[TheDS]

Lemme ask you this, Grey Fox: How many shields does it take to build a spearman, and how many for a catapult? I think the answer is 20 and 40, respectively.

Now, how many times can either unit defend in a turn? The spearman can defend as many times as it's attacked, until it's destroyed. The catapult can defend only once, and can only inflict one hit, if it does anything at all.

And finally, which unit is more likely to kill an enemy, one which fights until some one dies, or one that can only inflict one point per turn, and is not allowed to kill (under default rules)?

All the catapult has going for it is that if properly defended, it can attack with impunity; without fear of being destroyed if it doesn't win the attack. It's weak, it doesn't hit very often, it doesn't hit very hard, and it's expensive. Worse, it can be captured and used against you. A pair of spearmen, or a pair of archers (or better yet, one of each) is a much more effective use of your build time, and that can even be split up among two cities for faster production. And are horsemen 20 shields too? Those are faster, but maybe they're 30. Still, a better buy than a catapult.

Capturing enemy catapults is useful to you in that when you get cannons and such, they can be upgraded. And maybe to help defend a city, but they can't even defend by themselves.

Cannons can occasionally hit things, so I sometimes will build them. Artillery hits fairly often, so I build lots of them.

 

[Shirannybl]

sorry to the great stupidty of my part, but once I'm still a novice is quite pardonable.I have some questions, I looked up in all FAQs they aren't there.
1) What is AI?
2)What is the Forbidden Castle and what is it for?
3) How can I change the amount of money(treasure speaking) in the game so will not ruin in funds?
Thanks, and please excuse me for that.
Shirannybl

 

[Silence]

Originally posted by Shirannybl

sorry to the great stupidty of my part, but once I'm still a novice is quite pardonable.I have some questions, I looked up in all FAQs they aren't there.
1) What is AI?
2)What is the Forbidden Castle and what is it for?
3) How can I change the amount of money(treasure speaking) in the game so will not ruin in funds?

To answer your questions.

1) AI stands for Artificial Intelligence, something which is theoretically possessed by the game.

2) The Forbidden Palace is an improvement that creates a second capital for your empire, it reduces corruption in the same way that your original palace does. Don't build it too close to your capital city.

3) I'm not really sure what you're asking here, but you can change the levels of money, science and luxuries using the revenue slider, found at the top right of the domestic advisor screen.

 

[bobgote]

The main advantage with artillery units is that you can lower health in other units without risking your unit in direct combat. What is better, sending your war host against 8 infantry at full strength or against 8 infantry who have lost about 2 hp each?

This can correspond into other ages too. This is my main use in these units. They have the same effect in defence. It's a "free hit" and i'll take it when I can.

 

[TheDS]

Oh I'm not knocking bombard, not one bit. I'm knocking Catapults and to a lesser extent, Cannons. I LOOOOVE Artillery (until I get tanks) and I REALLY LOVE Radar Artillery (aka Rocket Artillery). My attack forces, once I've got them built up, will consist of about half bombard units (not including Battleships and Destroyers and Cruisers (oh my!)), 1/3 offensive units, and 1/6 defensive units.

I love Battleships. Hellacious bombard, range of 3, Blitz.... (my mod) YEAH BABY!!!! But they're so expensive and slow that they don't get to fight unless they're already on station.

 

[Andre]

Artificial Intelligence basically empowers your opponents in the game-in fact that's what they all are