New Official Version Released! March 8th (3/8)

[Gazebo]

You're kidding, right? I gift units all the time, easily cheapest way to maintain relations.


You've said that 5 times now, no one disagrees with you.

Easy there, killer. I'm just pointing out that a change is afoot.

I think some active building traits could be really interesting. I'm going to explore. May be useful, may not be.

Re: shrines/temples, yeah I think the Temple could use a point of culture, or perhaps some golden age points. Something to make it worthwhile. The shrine's fine, as I don't want to bloat pre-religion faith again.

G

 

[Funak]

Re: shrines/temples, yeah I think the Temple could use a point of culture, or perhaps some golden age points. Something to make it worthwhile. The shrine's fine, as I don't want to bloat pre-religion faith again.

I doubt one extra point of faith per city in theory and two extra points of faith per city in practice is going to bloat anything. As mentioned before, the shrine is hardly worth building at the moment, I guess making it cheaper would serve a similar purpose.

 

[PurpleMentat]

There are exactly two situations where I build a shrine: when I need it to get my Pantheon, and when I need one to build a Temple because I'm going Piety. Leaving the Shrine alone and adding a point of culture or GAP to Temple isn't going to change that. I'm a fairly religious heavy player, and find little use for the two hammer-built buildings I should care a lot about.

Also, as a request, could we have an alternate unlock for National Wonders than strictly national population? Maybe bring back the Vanilla 'building in every city' as an OR, for the super-tall and OCC players.

 

[supracseduch]

I'm just, generally, not as happy with the yield conversion model as I thought I would be. It is interacting with science in the wrong way for the early game.

Indeed this is one of the unforeseen consequences of the major science changes. We had to make science come from other things since population no longer gives it on its own. At first I thought I was going to like the early %-to-science buildings, but then I noticed how ridiculously well they scaled. It's like the Granary's main yield is science instead of food. These buildings also easily trounce the actual science buildings by the late game. I don't have ideas right now for alternatives to the current system though. Returning the yields per x population to Library and Market might again inflate the value of food above all else. The Palace is already doing that to a small extent.

But personally, I'm fine with them not having "active effects". Like some have people mentioned, it might introduce chaos in research timings. Also generally, I've noticed that CBP has way, way more sources of instant yields than vanilla did. I was honestly very confused where these numbers were coming from. Killing enemies can now give all sorts of yields. The fact that many instant yields also scale with era can also lead to severe excesses in the late game (such as era-scaling instant faith). I don't have any better ideas for now, but I'd rather not add more instant yields.

We need more ideas.

 

[Legen]

Indeed this is one of the unforeseen consequences of the major science changes. We had to make science come from other things since population no longer gives it on its own. At first I thought I was going to like the early %-to-science buildings, but then I noticed how ridiculously well they scaled. It's like the Granary's main yield is science instead of food. These buildings also easily trounce the actual science buildings by the late game. I don't have ideas right now for alternatives to the current system though. Returning the yields per x population to Library and Market might again inflate the value of food above all else. The Palace is already doing that to a small extent.

But personally, I'm fine with them not having "active effects". Like some have people mentioned, it might introduce chaos in research timings. Also generally, I've noticed that CBP has way, way more sources of instant yields than vanilla did. I was honestly very confused where these numbers were coming from. Killing enemies can now give all sorts of yields. The fact that many instant yields also scale with era can also lead to severe excesses in the late game (such as era-scaling instant faith). I don't have any better ideas for now, but I'd rather not add more instant yields.

We need more ideas.

Trade routes offer science when sent to city-states you're friendly/allied to. We could give these routes a base 1 science when neutral to the city-state and let everyone start with one or two more trade routes. This should also help with the low gold income many players/AI face in the Ancient and Classical eras.

Should offer some active gameplay too, since you need to secure those routes from barbarians, which are plentiful when you most need those routes. This may need some balance for early units, but may be doable.

By the way, barbarian galleys in ancient era.

 

[Gazebo]

Indeed this is one of the unforeseen consequences of the major science changes. We had to make science come from other things since population no longer gives it on its own. At first I thought I was going to like the early %-to-science buildings, but then I noticed how ridiculously well they scaled. It's like the Granary's main yield is science instead of food. These buildings also easily trounce the actual science buildings by the late game. I don't have ideas right now for alternatives to the current system though. Returning the yields per x population to Library and Market might again inflate the value of food above all else. The Palace is already doing that to a small extent.

But personally, I'm fine with them not having "active effects". Like some have people mentioned, it might introduce chaos in research timings. Also generally, I've noticed that CBP has way, way more sources of instant yields than vanilla did. I was honestly very confused where these numbers were coming from. Killing enemies can now give all sorts of yields. The fact that many instant yields also scale with era can also lead to severe excesses in the late game (such as era-scaling instant faith). I don't have any better ideas for now, but I'd rather not add more instant yields.

We need more ideas.

I don't think it is all that dire. Yes, there are quite a few more instant sources of yields, but the advantage of instant yields is that they're actually easier to change without horribly breaking balance. 1 Culture per turn v. 2 culture per turn is a huge difference on turn 1, but an instant yield of 5/10/15 when you do x is not quite as big of a difference (as the granularity % is usually below 1 per turn).

G

 

[Bromar1]

Yeah, it's really hard to do much if any naval stuff early game. Played a game as Denmark where my shiny new berserkers got eaten by galleys :-(

 

[PurpleMentat]

Yeah, it's really hard to do much if any naval stuff early game. Played a game as Denmark where my shiny new berserkers got eaten by galleys :-(

This is why my first love in CBP will always be Dido

 

[Funak]

By the way, barbarian galleys in ancient era.

I really don't like the galley either, by the time it shows up you have no possible way to fight it, city-attack dealt 5 damage to it, and it 3shot the city in return. Sure it can't capture the city anyways, but it's still stupid and annoying.
I just dislike the fact that there is absolutely no counterplay for it, archers does nothing against them, city-attack does nothing, you have to tech to Sailing, which is in the next era just to get your own boats out to fight them.

 

[Gazebo]

I really don't like the galley either, by the time it shows up you have no possible way to fight it, city-attack dealt 5 damage to it, and it 3shot the city in return. Sure it can't capture the city anyways, but it's still stupid and annoying.
I just dislike the fact that there is absolutely no counterplay for it, archers does nothing against them, city-attack does nothing, you have to tech to Sailing, which is in the next era just to get your own boats out to fight them.

So there IS a counterplay.

G

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Agreed.

It is virtually impossible to take a city in the ancient era now. One invincible archer can decimate your entire army.

Not true. It is just a matter of experience farming until your archer gets range.


On the matter of the new proposed science model: I am not a fan of triggerd yields, especially so many. I play marathon, so it wouldn`t affect me that much, but I can imagine on standard speed, if you have more than a couple of cities, there will be a firework of science yields popping up every turn. It´s not a problem of the amount of science, the numbers can be adjusted. But it will confuse the player. Many yields will just be missed (these numbers fade quickly), and you will be hard pressed to tell why city A city got 60 science this turn? It hasn`t even buildt... oh right pop growth. Not optimal.
Also it makes it nearly impossible to tell when you would reach a tech. A nightmare for the control freaks among us.


On a more constructive note:
I also don`t like the way buildings provide science right now, and I don´t like the alternative.
Why don`t we drop the concept of non-science buildings providing science altogether? Lets keep each building do it's thing (save UBs perhaps) to keep things straight. There are a ton of science providers already that can be utilized to give the right flow to the game.

 

[Funak]

So there IS a counterplay.

Teching to the next era is not a counterplay.

 

[Tubbilicious]

I'm just, generally, not as happy with the yield conversion model as I thought I would be. It is interacting with science in the wrong way for the early game.

I have to admit, I''m surprised you changed science in the way you did.

Personally I would have tried two other models. One would have been flat science on certain buildings (or all buildings). How much science on any particular building could vary.

Another model would be to move the science/population paradigm to a science/production paradigm. Because production is tied to growth, one would still have needed to grow one's cities. At the same time, a food focus would leave cities without terribly high production, forcing a balancing act of less science now, but more later because your cities would be tall - thereby having more slots to work. Or more science now, but less later due to a lower population and thus less slots to work.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I think it is food-for-thought. Ultimately, I'm just not too happy with the yield-to-science modifiers. They lack initial value and interactivity.

G

FWIW, I like the change. It lets me specialize cities differently, and highlights those specializations.

For initial value, why not just round up? Then the granary, shrine, etc. has a flat science on it that scales with whatever else we're doing.

 

[tu_79]

For wonders, I believe the science AND number of policies is working fine. I'd like to see some wonders more demanding in some aspects, thou. Like ludicrously low policies # required for science wonders, extremely high for culture wonders, and more or less balance for the rest. Right now they all seem balanced to me.
I have one other concern. Science leaders use to be the first to have access to culture buildings, so they are usually not short of culture, at least in the first eras.

Wonders don't need to be spread out evenly. They're now supposed to be an advantage for playstyles, so it's fine if cultural civs get lots of them, to compensate for being scientifically backwards. It's just a little annoying that a single civ gets most of them. On the other hand, that makes that civ a better prize for warmongers.

 

[BenchBreaker]

I've done all the usual, verified cache and deleted all other mods and reinstalled using the installer, which seems to automatically install the EUI DLC even though this isn't made clear and there doesn't seem to be a manual-to-install version anywhere.

No matter what, my bottom-left panel is still disabled.

delete lua folder from (1)CP and (2)CBP folders

 

[tu_79]

Of the science giving buildings, I think granary is the worst offender. As pointed before, more food is more growth, and growth allows for science more than anything (through specialists). And science is everything, so the granary must be build ASAP.

We were making the assumption that we need to keep up with science or our game is doomed. With that premise, G gave every antique building some science (that doesn't scale well).

Being many techs ahead shouldn't be so great. You should be able to build a wonder or two that ensure you to be the tech leader forever, and a small top tier army to keep you safe, and nothing more. It takes hammers to build the infrastructure, it takes a big army to keep safe your trade routes and trade routes to maintain a big army, it takes hammers to befriend CS, it takes culture to have room for your workers; none of that should be easy for a science focused civ. In addition other civs get your techs easily (lesser costs, trade routes, stealing).

But tech leaders don't really suffer from infrastructure deficiency. They get fast to the forge and build it. It costs gold, but they get fast to market too and also build it.
A balanced city should have always something useful to build. A city focusing in other things may have to wait some turns before next useful building is available.

Same with culture and growth. A balanced city should find a workplace for every new pop, and reach that pop soon enough. If not balanced, slow city expansion will force unemployment or lack of food won't allow for specialists.

To the point. Council is a great addition. This building should be THE building for early science (no need for any others). Palace should give enough science to let you postpone council for your 3rd or 4th building, to be balanced. A science focused civ will build the council asap, but it shouldn't give gamebreaking advantages (a better shot at Great Library, maybe, but other wonders won't be so easy without culture). No civ should leave councils for last building, unless they have whales or something like that (the same you won't miss monuments). Science from social policies are fine as they are, they give enough science to let you postpone Libraries while you build infrastructure or a little army.

EDIT: The logic is this, when I need something I build the building that gives me that. If my borders are so small that I suffer unemployment, I build culture or gold buildings or change specialists to culture. If my borders are too big compared to my workforce, I try to speed growth. If I am having troubles with barbs I produce units. If my next desired building is coming too late I build more science buildings. Planning ahead is rewarded cause you don't miss a few turns waiting.

 

[Moi Magnus]

I don't think it is all that dire. Yes, there are quite a few more instant sources of yields, but the advantage of instant yields is that they're actually easier to change without horribly breaking balance. 1 Culture per turn v. 2 culture per turn is a huge difference on turn 1, but an instant yield of 5/10/15 when you do x is not quite as big of a difference (as the granularity % is usually below 1 per turn).

G

If you want more granularity, the easiest way is to increase science production and cost.
Example : multiply by 10 all science production and tech cost
(and divide by 10 the importance of science when comparing science yields to other yields)
Remark : 10 is probably too much. But 2 or 3 would probably help.

 

[Myrrdin_Emrys]

BUG Report ?
I control an holy city but im not the founder. I poped a Great prophet and i have the button to enhance the religion (the religion inst enhanced) but when i click on it asks me to found a religion (impossible they are all founded) even if i click on orthodoxy (my religion) i cant do anything so i can only press escape but then i can't hit next turn (cuz Enhance your religion golden tooltip is on the way !)

 

[tu_79]

If you want more granularity, the easiest way is to increase science production and cost.
Example : multiply by 10 all science production and tech cost
(and divide by 10 the importance of science when comparing science yields to other yields)
Remark : 10 is probably too much. But 2 or 3 would probably help.

You are really suggesting real numbers: 1.5 , 1.2 and so.

I think the problem is not there. It is what is tied to the bonus. When it is tied to population, it rewards growth, thus food. When it is tied to city connections it rewards wide empires (so good to have it locked inside Progress). When it is tied to border expansion it rewards a large empire only when it is expanding, and more if it has some culture, but it stops before late game. If it scales with era, it rewards fast teching. If it is tied to resources, then it is a lottery. If it isn't tied to anything, then it is a flat bonus, very rewarding early and negligible later, no matter the granularity.

So, how can we scale science bonus in a way that doesn't unbalance everything? We can't. Every system has its own balance.

Linking to the pop size was a bad idea, but everything scaled to this. I don't know yet if I like the yield per event, I haven't tried it enough, but understand the concerns.

A couple of ideas of what to do with those science buildings:
*Make the library/university be required for 'turn production into science' build order, and let it be bigger (75% hammers into beakers). Optionally, create a new build order that turns gold into science (actually it is purchasing beakers), available once library/university is built.
*Make the university/public school to increase +50% beaker production. That's to be added to the 'hammers/gold into beakers'.
*Building Council/Library allows trade routes to "move" beakers, as they do with hammers and food.

So a city focusing in science cannot build anything while researching, or is going to be short of gold, or both.