civ editor11
Ruler
I'm going to be gone for a week so see you guys
New SW Mod?
- Thread starter TC01
- Start date
civ editor11
Ruler
I'm back from vacation
TC01
Deity
Glad to see you again.
I've made progress in adding the force powers so far, but they're not finished yet.
What kind of force powers do you want? So far, I've been able to implement/am implementing:
-Force Lightning
-Force Choke
-Force Push
-Mind Trick
(those are the only ones I could easily think of)
civ editor11
Ruler
I got this from the force powers thread you don't need to do all of these
If you could would you do the hilighted ones
TC01
Deity
First I don't know what half of those thing mean.
Secondly, I have no idea if the AI will actually understand how to use a python action button.
Thirdly, all of the very old threads, including the one you got this from, were assuming that the game would work like "normal" except water would be land. At least, that's what the old version of the SW mod (.66?) from vanilla I have tells me. So many of their ideas assume that the map will have a lot of land and a little space. Whereas here we have a lot of space and a little land. So powers like "Animal Friendship" will mean and do nothing, because I don't think there's room for any animals.
Fourthly, I'm wondering if we should make two mods, one all Final Frontier, one all normal Civ. Force powers and things for the "land" one could go in the land mod... (you could have an "Arctic" mapscript simulating an arctic planet like Hoth, a "Desert" mapscript simulating a desert planet like Tatooine, a "Volcanic" mapscript simulating a vulcanic planet like Mustafar, sort of like Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds (the Star Wars game built on the Age of Empires II engine))
In any event, here's my breakdown of the ones you selected as doable/not doable:
Burst of Speed: I don't really think it's worth it... 3x3 planets, and there's a movement reduction to pressing the button (I intend to implement one, anyway). So the speed you get has to be at least double the speed you loose from pressing the button... and we have 3x3 planets.
Force Concealment: Makes the unit invisible. Fine, but again, on a 3x3 plot, what does this mean? Is there a point to it?
Force Push: I was able to add this in, in that it pushes a unit "back" 1 tile. But only if it is targeted at a unit right next to the caster, and in the direction of where the caster's standing (so if you're facing a unit in the corner of a planet, pushing it back won't do anything, because it would be about to walk into space). I can add a pull to work the same way.
Battle Meditiation: What's this do?
Force Throw: Again, what's this do?
Sever Force: What's this do? Prevent a unit from using force powers? How many units do you intend to be able to use force powers to make this worth it?
Animal Friendship: As I said above, there are't any animals on a 3x3 planet- I guess you could maybe have one every so often. In any event, land battles won't really be turned by one "converted" animal.
Force Healing: Would this heal the unit who used it or another (targeted) unit? Either way, I guess it would be worth adding. I'll start adding this one.
Mind Trick: Was able to add this in the form of a promotion (Mind Tricked) that presumably will significantly weaken the unit. The only thing is that the promotion is removed on that unit owner's next turn, so this will only be valuable when attacking.
Force Drain: Again, what's this do?
Force Healing: Already mentioned.
Force Lightning: Added in the form of a targeted ability that gives the unit who used some random healing (unless they are at full health), and the unit who did it some random damage.
Force Scream: What would this do?
Force Choke: Added in the form of a targeted ability that dealt damage to a nearby unit. (Does the same amount of damage as Force Lightning, so would have to be a prereq for Force Lightning).
Mind Control: Could add in the form of taking over target unit. But there would be some problems, such as using it on a city, gaining one unit, forcing the other units out, and taking the city.
Thought Bomb: What would this do?
Saber Barrier: What would this do?
Secondly, I have no idea if the AI will actually understand how to use a python action button.
Thirdly, all of the very old threads, including the one you got this from, were assuming that the game would work like "normal" except water would be land. At least, that's what the old version of the SW mod (.66?) from vanilla I have tells me. So many of their ideas assume that the map will have a lot of land and a little space. Whereas here we have a lot of space and a little land. So powers like "Animal Friendship" will mean and do nothing, because I don't think there's room for any animals.
Fourthly, I'm wondering if we should make two mods, one all Final Frontier, one all normal Civ. Force powers and things for the "land" one could go in the land mod... (you could have an "Arctic" mapscript simulating an arctic planet like Hoth, a "Desert" mapscript simulating a desert planet like Tatooine, a "Volcanic" mapscript simulating a vulcanic planet like Mustafar, sort of like Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds (the Star Wars game built on the Age of Empires II engine))
In any event, here's my breakdown of the ones you selected as doable/not doable:
Burst of Speed: I don't really think it's worth it... 3x3 planets, and there's a movement reduction to pressing the button (I intend to implement one, anyway). So the speed you get has to be at least double the speed you loose from pressing the button... and we have 3x3 planets.
Force Concealment: Makes the unit invisible. Fine, but again, on a 3x3 plot, what does this mean? Is there a point to it?
Force Push: I was able to add this in, in that it pushes a unit "back" 1 tile. But only if it is targeted at a unit right next to the caster, and in the direction of where the caster's standing (so if you're facing a unit in the corner of a planet, pushing it back won't do anything, because it would be about to walk into space). I can add a pull to work the same way.
Battle Meditiation: What's this do?
Force Throw: Again, what's this do?
Sever Force: What's this do? Prevent a unit from using force powers? How many units do you intend to be able to use force powers to make this worth it?
Animal Friendship: As I said above, there are't any animals on a 3x3 planet- I guess you could maybe have one every so often. In any event, land battles won't really be turned by one "converted" animal.
Force Healing: Would this heal the unit who used it or another (targeted) unit? Either way, I guess it would be worth adding. I'll start adding this one.
Mind Trick: Was able to add this in the form of a promotion (Mind Tricked) that presumably will significantly weaken the unit. The only thing is that the promotion is removed on that unit owner's next turn, so this will only be valuable when attacking.
Force Drain: Again, what's this do?
Force Healing: Already mentioned.
Force Lightning: Added in the form of a targeted ability that gives the unit who used some random healing (unless they are at full health), and the unit who did it some random damage.
Force Scream: What would this do?
Force Choke: Added in the form of a targeted ability that dealt damage to a nearby unit. (Does the same amount of damage as Force Lightning, so would have to be a prereq for Force Lightning).
Mind Control: Could add in the form of taking over target unit. But there would be some problems, such as using it on a city, gaining one unit, forcing the other units out, and taking the city.
Thought Bomb: What would this do?
Saber Barrier: What would this do?
civ editor11
Ruler
Burst of Speed: I don't really think it's worth it... 3x3 planets, and there's a movement reduction to pressing the button (I intend to implement one, anyway). So the speed you get has to be at least double the speed you loose from pressing the button... and we have 3x3 planets.
We'll take this one off
Force Concealment: Makes the unit invisible. Fine, but again, on a 3x3 plot, what does this mean? Is there a point to it?
You can use it if your attacking another planet so they don't see your unit coming
Force Push: I was able to add this in, in that it pushes a unit "back" 1 tile. But only if it is targeted at a unit right next to the caster, and in the direction of where the caster's standing (so if you're facing a unit in the corner of a planet, pushing it back won't do anything, because it would be about to walk into space). I can add a pull to work the same way.
Thanks
Maelstorm
Pushing all units in adjectant tiles one tile away
Battle Meditiation: What's this do?
Makes your other units more likely to win against he odds temporarily
Force Throw: Again, what's this do?
We won't use this
Sever Force: What's this do? Prevent a unit from using force powers? How many units do you intend to be able to use force powers to make this worth it?
It pernamently takes away force powers
Animal Friendship: As I said above, there are't any animals on a 3x3 planet- I guess you could maybe have one every so often. In any event, land battles won't really be turned by one "converted" animal.
We won't use this one
Force Healing: Would this heal the unit who used it or another (targeted) unit? Either way, I guess it would be worth adding. I'll start adding this one.
Heal a targeted unit
Mind Trick: Was able to add this in the form of a promotion (Mind Tricked) that presumably will significantly weaken the unit. The only thing is that the promotion is removed on that unit owner's next turn, so this will only be valuable when attacking.
Force Drain: Again, what's this do?
We won't use this one
Force Heal: Already mentioned.
Heal the unit
Force Lightning: Added in the form of a targeted ability that gives the unit who used some random healing (unless they are at full health), and the unit who did it some random damage.
Thanks
Force Scream: What would this do?
hurt all units in the tiles connecting to the one on the one its on
Force Choke: Added in the form of a targeted ability that dealt damage to a nearby unit. (Does the same amount of damage as Force Lightning, so would have to be a prereq for Force Lightning).
That would work
Mind Control: Could add in the form of taking over target unit. But there would be some problems, such as using it on a city, gaining one unit, forcing the other units out, and taking the city.
The unit would come out and you could use it it only works once and only affects one unit
Thought Bomb: What would this do?
kill it and all units near it
Saber Barrier: What would this do?
We won't use this
Would these work
We'll take this one off
Force Concealment: Makes the unit invisible. Fine, but again, on a 3x3 plot, what does this mean? Is there a point to it?
You can use it if your attacking another planet so they don't see your unit coming
Force Push: I was able to add this in, in that it pushes a unit "back" 1 tile. But only if it is targeted at a unit right next to the caster, and in the direction of where the caster's standing (so if you're facing a unit in the corner of a planet, pushing it back won't do anything, because it would be about to walk into space). I can add a pull to work the same way.
Thanks
Maelstorm
Pushing all units in adjectant tiles one tile away
Battle Meditiation: What's this do?
Makes your other units more likely to win against he odds temporarily
Force Throw: Again, what's this do?
We won't use this
Sever Force: What's this do? Prevent a unit from using force powers? How many units do you intend to be able to use force powers to make this worth it?
It pernamently takes away force powers
Animal Friendship: As I said above, there are't any animals on a 3x3 planet- I guess you could maybe have one every so often. In any event, land battles won't really be turned by one "converted" animal.
We won't use this one
Force Healing: Would this heal the unit who used it or another (targeted) unit? Either way, I guess it would be worth adding. I'll start adding this one.
Heal a targeted unit
Mind Trick: Was able to add this in the form of a promotion (Mind Tricked) that presumably will significantly weaken the unit. The only thing is that the promotion is removed on that unit owner's next turn, so this will only be valuable when attacking.
Force Drain: Again, what's this do?
We won't use this one
Force Heal: Already mentioned.
Heal the unit
Force Lightning: Added in the form of a targeted ability that gives the unit who used some random healing (unless they are at full health), and the unit who did it some random damage.
Thanks
Force Scream: What would this do?
hurt all units in the tiles connecting to the one on the one its on
Force Choke: Added in the form of a targeted ability that dealt damage to a nearby unit. (Does the same amount of damage as Force Lightning, so would have to be a prereq for Force Lightning).
That would work
Mind Control: Could add in the form of taking over target unit. But there would be some problems, such as using it on a city, gaining one unit, forcing the other units out, and taking the city.
The unit would come out and you could use it it only works once and only affects one unit
Thought Bomb: What would this do?
kill it and all units near it
Saber Barrier: What would this do?
We won't use this
Would these work
TC01
Deity
I think you should create a line of promotions, let's say:
Light Side I Dark Side I
Light Side II Dark Side II
Light Side III Dark Side III
....... ...........
I'm not sure how exactly you want this to go, but "UNIT_SITH" (name randomly chosen) should start with, say, Dark Side I, and "UNIT_JEDI" should start with Light Side I. Each promotion would equal 1 power. Some powers should be available to both Light and Dark sides, though (I'll let you pick which and what goes where). Just make sure you tell me, so that when I write the python I know which promotions to let display which button.
Battle Meditiation, Force Concealment (and Mind Trick) work best as promotions applied by their buttons. I can remove them the same way I have it set up with Mind Trick. Except, for Battle Meditation, I think it should either affect only the unit who casted it or a targeted unit on a tile.
For the mind control one, I think you should make it the "end" of the force powers promotion tree. Then create a second promotion (for instance, if you have five Dark Side promotions, then create PROMOTION_DARK_SIDE_5 and PROMOTION_DARK_SIDE_5_2). The second one is exactly the same, but applied via python after the unit with the first one casts the mind control ability. But, it will now be unable to cast the mind control ability. For the rest of the game. And if it is at the end of the tree, there will be no conflict that PROMOTION_DARK_SIDE_6's prereq, PROMOTION_DARK_SIDE_5, isn't on a unit (but PROMOTION_DARK_SIDE_5_2 is).
The Sever Force can work similarly- the unit looses all force power promotions and gaines "Force Severed" Promotion or something like that.
Light Side I Dark Side I
Light Side II Dark Side II
Light Side III Dark Side III
....... ...........
I'm not sure how exactly you want this to go, but "UNIT_SITH" (name randomly chosen) should start with, say, Dark Side I, and "UNIT_JEDI" should start with Light Side I. Each promotion would equal 1 power. Some powers should be available to both Light and Dark sides, though (I'll let you pick which and what goes where). Just make sure you tell me, so that when I write the python I know which promotions to let display which button.
Battle Meditiation, Force Concealment (and Mind Trick) work best as promotions applied by their buttons. I can remove them the same way I have it set up with Mind Trick. Except, for Battle Meditation, I think it should either affect only the unit who casted it or a targeted unit on a tile.
For the mind control one, I think you should make it the "end" of the force powers promotion tree. Then create a second promotion (for instance, if you have five Dark Side promotions, then create PROMOTION_DARK_SIDE_5 and PROMOTION_DARK_SIDE_5_2). The second one is exactly the same, but applied via python after the unit with the first one casts the mind control ability. But, it will now be unable to cast the mind control ability. For the rest of the game. And if it is at the end of the tree, there will be no conflict that PROMOTION_DARK_SIDE_6's prereq, PROMOTION_DARK_SIDE_5, isn't on a unit (but PROMOTION_DARK_SIDE_5_2 is).
The Sever Force can work similarly- the unit looses all force power promotions and gaines "Force Severed" Promotion or something like that.
civ editor11
Ruler
That Should work
TC01
Deity
Okay.
There are twelve force powers. One of them is available to both sides, Force Healing. Are any other powers going to be like this? It would be nice if I had an even number, so either 1 more, or 3 more, or 5 more have to be available to both sides.
I need a chart of sorts, comparing the promotion (Light Side/Dark Side _) to the power (Force ______ ). That way, I know which promotion should allow a unit to see a certain button.
There are twelve force powers. One of them is available to both sides, Force Healing. Are any other powers going to be like this? It would be nice if I had an even number, so either 1 more, or 3 more, or 5 more have to be available to both sides.
I need a chart of sorts, comparing the promotion (Light Side/Dark Side _) to the power (Force ______ ). That way, I know which promotion should allow a unit to see a certain button.
civ editor11
Ruler
Light Dark Universal
Force Healing|Force Choke | Force Heal
Force Sever |Force Lightning| Force Scream
Mind Trick |Mind Control | Battle Meditation
Maelstorm |Thought Bomb| Force Concealment
| Force Push
Are These Good
Force Healing|Force Choke | Force Heal
Force Sever |Force Lightning| Force Scream
Mind Trick |Mind Control | Battle Meditation
Maelstorm |Thought Bomb| Force Concealment
| Force Push
Are These Good
TC01
Deity
Maelstrom seems like it's a little useless (I missed it the first time).
It would have three different effects:
1. If you're standing in a corner of a planet, blow all units in neighboring plots back. Good effect.
2. If you're standing in the center of the edge of a planet, blow the units in the planet's center back but do nothing else. Okay.
3. If you're standing in the center of a planet, do nothing. Bad.
So really, 1/3 times it works good, but the other times it's not so good. I think that we don't really need it, and anyway, it lets me have an even number of force powers, which is good. I think it would be slightly better as:
Light Dark Universal
Force Healing|Force Choke | Force Heal
Force Sever |Force Lightning| Force Scream
Mind Trick |Mind Control | Force Push
Battle Meditation |Thought Bomb| Force Concealment
Because Battle Meditation seems more of a "good" ability, and Force Push more of a "neutral" ability.
Also, a quick question- is Force Healing the "heal other unit" and Force Heal the "heal yourself"?
We'll need 8 promotions, Light Side 1 through 4 and Dark Side 1 through 4. We'll also need button graphics (which should go under CIV4ArtDefines_Interface.xml), 12 of them, one for each force ability. I'll do the text for each button explaining what it does, and then give you the text file to drop into XML\Text folder.
It would have three different effects:
1. If you're standing in a corner of a planet, blow all units in neighboring plots back. Good effect.
2. If you're standing in the center of the edge of a planet, blow the units in the planet's center back but do nothing else. Okay.
3. If you're standing in the center of a planet, do nothing. Bad.
So really, 1/3 times it works good, but the other times it's not so good. I think that we don't really need it, and anyway, it lets me have an even number of force powers, which is good. I think it would be slightly better as:
Light Dark Universal
Force Healing|Force Choke | Force Heal
Force Sever |Force Lightning| Force Scream
Mind Trick |Mind Control | Force Push
Battle Meditation |Thought Bomb| Force Concealment
Because Battle Meditation seems more of a "good" ability, and Force Push more of a "neutral" ability.
Also, a quick question- is Force Healing the "heal other unit" and Force Heal the "heal yourself"?
We'll need 8 promotions, Light Side 1 through 4 and Dark Side 1 through 4. We'll also need button graphics (which should go under CIV4ArtDefines_Interface.xml), 12 of them, one for each force ability. I'll do the text for each button explaining what it does, and then give you the text file to drop into XML\Text folder.
civ editor11
Ruler
Healing other unit Heal is the unit
Meditation is one that both use but the sith were the first to use it
Meditation is one that both use but the sith were the first to use it
TC01
Deity
The real problem is simply that I want an even number of Light Side promotions and Dark Side promotions. And neutral abilities. So 12 abilities works.
But if we remove Maelstrom, we have 12 abilities with a 3, 4, 5. When I said "even", I didn't mean 2,4,6, etc. I meant "the same". This would be fine if we had 2 more light side abilities and 1 more dark side ability... if there are some on that list you think could be worked into the game (that you didn't already suggest), tell me what they do and I'll see if they would be doable/make sense.
If there aren't, I suggest either cutting Mind Control (which I may not be able to do), or going with gameplay over flavor (which is how you should do game design) and moving a Universal ability to Light Side only.
civ editor11
Ruler
We'll put force healing and heal in light
meditation can be moved to neutral
meditation can be moved to neutral
TC01
Deity
Okay. That works.
civ editor11
Ruler
Thanks
When do you think You'll have those ready to insert into the game?
When do you think You'll have those ready to insert into the game?
TC01
Deity
I could probably get them done by tomorrow night. By Thursday at the latest.
civ editor11
Ruler
That'll be great
Jawa'sRevenge
Warlord
Force Powers are an interesting idea, but I have one worry, Jedi/Sith are powerful but not that powerful having them have specific force powers would make them a bit too powerful for it to be realistic. Jedi have functioned as generals, and have led battles, but they cannot win one single handed (perhaps they could be grouped with some other units). Also how many persons does a "unit" represent, a jedi cannot force push a legion of troops.
Also Please no weird EU force powers.
Also Please no weird EU force powers.
TC01
Deity
Logically, a Jedi or Sith represents a small group of Jedi or Sith. Or, they represent one Jedi or Sith leading a small army. Or both. Like heroes from FFH- I assume they represent one hero leading a small army.
I'll say this again: gameplay trumps realism (or flavor). It's bad game design to remove a mechanic because story reason's don't quite stretch to fit it. Yes, it's a little hard to imagine, say, a Jedi unit force-pushing an Infantry backwards. But is it a good gameplay ability? Well, yes, with enough Jedi you could empty a city of units, assuming the city was in the center of the map. Or, say, Force Choke. Can a single Jedi or Sith force choke an entire army? Maybe not. But the damage is not "kill units", it's "damage units", so it's a little more believable. Anyway, it's a good ability to have, to damage an enemy.
Here is the list of force powers:
1. Force Healing: Heals a targeted unit
2. Force Heal: Heals the caster. (a new name might be needed, like "Force Regenerate").
3. Sever Force: Removes all force promotions from a unit (preventing the casting of abilities).
4. Mind Trick: Gives a promotion called "Mind Tricked" to a unit, making it weak. Promotion removed on start of next turn.
5. Force Choke: Does random damage to a specific unit.
6. Force Lightning: Does same damage as Force Choke, then heals the caster (if the caster is injured).
7. Mind Control: Only usable once, converts a unit to your team.
8. Thought Bomb: Kills all units (including the caster) in a 1-plot radius (except for space units).
9. Force Scream: Does damage to all units in a 1-plot radius around the caster (except for space units).
10. Force Push: Pushes the unit to the plot in a line with it and the caster. If the unit can't move into the plot (if it's a space tile, for instance), the ability does nothing.
11. Force Concealment: Gives the unit an invisible promotion. Promotion removed at start of next turn.
12. Battle Meditation: Gives all units in the caster's plot the Battle Meditation promotion. Promotion removed at start of next turn.
I do think Jedi should act like mages from FFH. If they focus on gaining force ability promotions, they loose combat strength. If they focus on gaining combat promotions, they become stronger in combat but can't "cast" abilities. I've already implemented a flat movement cost (each ability costs 1 movement point) to make them less overpowered.
