Mod: Full Civilization Progression Plan (120 Civs) (5 ages)

[Ryansinbela]

oh I see

 

[Ryansinbela]

Also Goryeo is present as an exploration IP and Joseon is modern

 

[czechball]

i'd rather Kalmar into Sweden tbh

 

[BackseatTyrant]

i'd rather Kalmar into Sweden tbh

That's one of the intentions, yes. It's just that Poland is ahead in the alphabetical order

 

[BackseatTyrant]

Also Goryeo is present as an exploration IP and Joseon is modern

For some reason, I thought that Silla and Goryeo were contemporary with one another, and that the Joseon dynasty ended long before the industrial revolution kicked in

 

[czechball]

wait, i think this lit a spark of inspiration for new ideas:

Noricum -> Duchy of Austria -> Imperial Austria (could also be Noricum -> Austria -> Austria-Hungary)

Illyria -> Serbia -> Yugoslavia

Lusatia -> Nitra -> Czechoslovakia (converges with my Bohemia idea at the Modern Age)

Lusatia -> Kingdom of Poland -> Polish Republic (or Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth)

Mayans -> Chibchan -> Central America

Olmecs -> Aztecs -> Mexico

? -> Guarani/Guaycuru -> Paraguay

Parthia -> Transoxiana -> Khiva

 

[nickelion]

Here's an alternative layout plan I came up with:
View attachment 722279

Also, I should point out present-day Puebloans consider "Anasazi" to be a derogatory name, due to its linguistic origins

EDIT: I should clarify that this chart is not going to imply there is only one civ you can become in the following age; the arrows aren't strict paths, and the blank spaces aren't undecided predecessors/successors. For example, Kalmar Union can morph into either Poland, Prussia or Sweden, and Kievan Rus can morph into either Poland, Russia or Ukraine, etcetera

It's an okay list. However, I'd change Muisca to Carib people (or Kariña) instead, who were present in today's Venezuela and other parts of the pre-colombine America. And they make more sense for "Exploration"

 

[RogueAustralian]

As always, glad that you found use with the Sumer mod! This is awesome and I’m eager to see how it goes - feel free to co-opt my work into your plans. More than willing to meeting the middle with compatibility with stuff like this and push the horizon of quality content.

 

[RogueAustralian]

Illyria and Monaco are my next two civs I have slated. Monaco will be a modern age, and I’m targeting it to fill in a path in Carthage -> Venice -> Monaco to do a three age single city playthrough. Not sure if that fits into your roadmap anywhere, but Monaco is definitely going to be manifested.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

It's an okay list. However, I'd change Muisca to Carib people (or Kariña) instead, who were present in today's Venezuela and other parts of the pre-colombine America. And they make more sense for "Exploration"

Leaving out the Muisca doesn't feel right to me, given how it's one of the four "big" pre-Columbian civilizations (alongside the Aztecs, the Maya and the Incas)

 

[nickelion]

Leaving out the Muisca doesn't feel right to me, given how it's one of the four "big" pre-Columbian civilizations (alongside the Aztecs, the Maya and the Incas)

How it is one of the four "big" Pre-Columbien civilizations? Who said that? The Caribs were actually big and powerful, the first people Columbus found when he reached the Americas, and he gave a very interesting (in a good way) description about them.

Their presence in many parts of the Caribbean AND South America, makes them less "exclusive" to one part of this continent (Today's Colombia), like the Muisca.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

How it is one of the four "big" Pre-Columbien civilizations? Who said that?

Granted, this something I base off of Wikipedia, which I know isn't the most reliable of sources. It's still one of the four with enough info on it to warrant its own sub-section, though

 

[RogueAustralian]

Worth mentioning I’m more than happy to add support for any new civilization with my existing civilization mods to realize visions like this. I genuinely believe the games biggest weakness is a lack of civs per age, and I’m happy to see stuff like this develop it out.

 

[tman2000]

For neolithic, you have to draw deep into these academically named archeological/genetic studies. Things like Western Hunter-Gatherers, Afanasievo. It can be done, but there was minimal technology.

Actually, I had some ideas for Civ 8 with smooth age transition, which would be an organic reaction to increased population and trade, leading to more barb attacks and things like that which systematically nerf yields, maybe with a little "invisible hand" help. Anyway, I came up with a key feature: no tech tree (until the renaissance).

The no tech tree concept disseminates technology through trade, but also through repeat military contact. This is why you had steppe traders with wagons end up inventing chariots and bronze weapons and bows to take over half the world. So a neolithic age would have to have "tech centers" like independent powers that can't be dispersed. Kind of like overland treasure fleets. Each civ would start with a single tech, and then try to leverage it to get trade and tech up.

• wheat farming
• millet farming
• rice farming
• marsh farming
• bronze working
• copper working
• horse domestication
• the wheel
• shamanism
• bow and arrow

But now we're already in "antiquity". So maybe instead these are later techs you develop later in the age, and you only specialize into one or two. So, tech as a wonder. The idea that other civs can't use that tech means that other civs have to discover them in the antiquity age.

So if techs themselves replace wonders, then what do you do? Well, here's maybe a good time to have builders. The gameplay is more around managing the land outside your city gates and protecting builders and fields. This means one-tile cities with maybe builder buildable improvements far from the city center, like forts or granaries. You'd also have to have nomads and nomadic faction. This would use army commanders as building substitutes like a granary, wagon circle for defense, smith's wagon, chuck wagon. Basically any building substitute wagon has to be within the "command radius" of a commander wagon to provide supportive yields. So each warrior and wagon represent population, within a radius, this times the functional wagons within radius, produce appropriate yields.

This also works with semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers with a commander drawing yields from hunters within radius.

There need to be independent trade centers, both independent and settled civ players, where treasure-fleet like wagons can trade in for upgrades, and diplomacy can control who can trade or not. Replacing economic systems, and representing an economic victory.

Military victory would be population based (units counting toward/as population). Maybe instead of city pop, individual units are your population, AKA builders.

Science victory is wonder based, so like antiquity culture victory.

Culture victory is religion based. Religion should be shamanistic. It should be about accumulating religious beliefs, like stacking them. It could be a great works based victory. Maybe some independent powers or some special buildables at player civs are cult centers. There should be some system of, if you bring your religion to their center, if you impress them or they impress you, and if this is done right, you pick up a totem of their cult. These are pretty standard. Things like the snake, the bee, the wolf. Or tie these totems to astrology and have a pantheon of 12. 'Gotta catch 'em all victory. Buffs include things like: prophecy - happiness up, pharmakeia - food up, djinn - more movement in desert tiles.

 

[tman2000]

For neolithic,

Sorry, last post was thinking out loud, but that can be useful. Here's the summary:

No tech tree, just civics. Civics are trade-off based, each choice locks off other choices. Based on anthropological qualities such as matriarchal v patriarchal. Nuclear v extended family.

Many independent powers with very specific functions that are variable (cult center, resource center, trade center).

Three civ types: settled, semi-nomadic, nomadic

• Settled: one-tile settlements with upgradeable palace, population is builders who have to be protected, can build forts and grain stores and cult centers etc. Grain stores give adjacency to farms, cult centers give adjacency to other buildables. No districts. Non-urban. Buildables share functions with independent power functions, and can attract nomads.
• Semi-nomadic: hunter-gatherers with normal movement speed, commanders get yields from hunter-warriors within command radius variable on tile type per hunter, gatherer units have to be protected but can gather culture and other things. Mode of gameplay is to travel a circuit around nearby friendly settlements with minimal time between visiting settlements.
• Nomadic: commander wagons and special treasure fleet like wagons that have functions similar to buildables but weaker. Carry higher capacity of trade goods than hunter-gatherers, can self-support through limited hunting, but can't generate the same yields as semi-nomads.

Science is now a wonder system. If you have the "Arkaim Bronze Works" wonder, you can use bronze and no one else can, though they can trade it as well as purchase bronze units from you if they are friendly. Tech is now an asymmetry. Science victory is like antiquity culture, based on building a certain number of wonders.

Culture is religion based, and based upon great works. This is shamanism, with a set of 12 totems based on animal constellations of stars. Each totem has some buff (i.e.: Djinn-faster movement in desert). Trade interaction at cult centers earns these. Great works victory.

Military victory is based on population size. There will be a ratio governing "heroes" per non-military unit. All civilians can fight, but "heroes" fight well. Large populations are vulnerable to concentrated hero attacks. It's growth based victory, units instead of settlements.

Economic victory is based on trade, and favors nomads, but settled civs can attract nomads with good buildables and by controlling choke points. There's a very small economic tree where resources have to be brought to certain centers to convert into other resources (tin, copper into bronze). There are "peak" resources which trade for gold. Cumulative gold is how you measure victory. Ideally, gold can purchase from trade, but you can spend it towards "kingly tombs". Like, three of these would be your econ victory. Thematically appropriate because gold adornments in tombs is how we know if certain ancient nomadic cultures were rich or not.

Settled civs pick one city to start with pre-founded. Transition to antiquity will give you one city and two towns to start for a military victory. You will start off with a pantheon if you got the religious victory. Science victory will give you pottery and animal husbandry and sailing from the get-go. Economic victory will give you a capital slottable resource "royal ancestral armor" which is a +10 gold, +10 production.

 

[tman2000]

Finally, instead of a neolithic age, I'd prefer an "Age of Heroes" with mythological features. The reason is some of what would happen in a neolithic age is baked into the first 15 turns of antiquity age, thematically. So the "Age of Heroes" is like a forgotten age lost to the mists of time.

I would have one tile settlements exclusively, with a one-tile radius for resource exploitation. That's it. But, maybe 5-10 settlement limits.

The goal would be to build bands of heroes, where 20-50% of your army are named heroes (Hercules, Fereyduhn, etc.)

The game play is to explore the map fighting monsters, discovering mythical settlements where you pick up quests. Completing quests develops your settlements, whose yields affect which heroes you can recruit, which quests you have access to. Finally, you should be able through prayer and votive sacrifice yields to invoke the favor of gods. Like, summon storms and that sort of thing.

Pretty simple and minimalist 4x, more of a tactical-exploration thing.

However, settlements generated on the map in this age become goodie huts and things like easter eggs. Ideally, if explorers are fixed ever for modern age, where normally there's a narrative quest to uncover King Tut and so forth, imagine more sensational quests like invoking the wrath of Poseidon by disturbing his treasury or something.

 

[jlcrow]

I appreciate your four-part model, but history is often much messier than a linear progression. One aspect I found disappointing in Civ VII was how America was handled—it didn’t emerge until the late 18th century, whereas leaders like Isabella represented Spain as early as the 15th century. A more accurate approach, especially within a four-stage framework, would be to include Colonial America.

By embracing the realities of colonialism during the Age of Exploration, the game could open up many historical possibilities. For example, your model for Mexico could begin with Colonial Mexico under Spanish rule, eventually leading to an independent Mexico. Similarly, Colonial America could splinter into the United States and Canada, or French colonial holdings in North America could evolve into modern Canada. The Caribbean also presents opportunities, such as Colonial Haiti progressing into modern Haiti.

This approach could extend beyond the Americas as well. Colonial India, which historically encompassed present-day India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, could serve as a foundation leading to any of these modern nations. European colonial powers were also heavily involved in Africa, which could further enrich the model’s scope.

While European colonialism caused immense harm to countless people, it remains a historical reality that could be meaningfully incorporated into the game. Your four-part framework offers a great foundation to explore these complexities, and I’d love to see it expanded in this way.

 

[tman2000]

While European colonialism caused immense harm to countless people, it remains a historical reality that could be meaningfully incorporated into the game. Your four-part framework offers a great foundation to explore these complexities, and I’d love to see it expanded in this way.

Just a correction on your language, but civilizations like Turkey had a far more expansive slave trade than Europe ever did. Tamerlane and the Mongols killed and expanded far more brutally and expansively than Europe ever did.

Anti-colonialism is a very niche British civilization dominated, post-war mentality. It's disrupted quite easily by the example of Japanese imperialism, although mentally ill communist activist academics will find every way to twist the mental pretzel to cast it as somehow the fault of Europe.

Just because "western leftism" chauvinist mad social activists presently dominate western cosmopolitan culture doesn't mean we need to constantly qualify or preface our language.

 

[Methos]

Moderator Action: This is a discussion/plans for a mod, please keep it that way.

 

[mclaw]

Hi all,

Almost done with the current progression plan. No doubt, it'll change again and again, but I wanted to post some sort of update. Still considering any additional thoughts, ideas, advice...

Specifically need help with areas labeled with question marks (?). Might trim this plan down as well, in order to make it more manageable and then build up from there. Also, will likely include other people's civilization mods to help fill out the roster. Am hopeful that additional Civs (Sumer, Assyria, Kongo, Mamluk, Aztec, Portugal, Netherlands, Danes, Norway, etc...) will be introduced through either DLC or by other modders. Some Civs will have multiple progression routes as well (dependent on culture, conquest, & geography).

I have started creating some of the civilizations (Anasazi, Muisca, Urewe, Kitara Empire, Hopi, Navajo), however there are no plans to release any yet. My hope is to begin posting some of the civilizations by May/June, but that is somewhat dependent on if any mod tools are released (mainly for asset work). And then things will need to be tested and tweaked accordingly.

I've attached the updated progression plan below and I'll post another, more informative update soon!