Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Questdog, Sep 16, 2011.
Second one is better
Some of the terrains are not changed between 1 and 2, (or if they are then you can't tell)
I like most of #2 changes, however, I prefer #1's dunes. and think #2'srocky should be darker.
These new terrains for will make the dark and desert rock forms no longer match as well.
I personally like the alternate terrains from DH more. I used them a few times, but the problem is that I'm so used to the default ones that using the alternate confuses me. Anyway, since it is available as a modmod it's great for people who want something new
It is not really new, we just did not have a picture before.
Looking at the two I think we may want to change the default plains texture to the alt version texture since it looks better. But I still feel that the 2nd ones arid textures (desert, dunes, rocky, scrub, barren) are just to similar and washed out to be included as a default texture.
I will see if it is possible to pick and choose. I cannot use the default ones.
Folks... This was a HUGE discussion a while back in the first GeoRealism and the Georealism vegetation threads. Making more desert terrains to include differences in sand color is unnecessary.
We DON'T NEED ANY MORE DRY TERRAINS. WE NEED MORE WET ONES. If you want to represent all the climates more accurately we need to focus on developing moist terrains.
Take a look at how many more moist environments that exist as compared to dry ones.
Count them :
5 Dry climates (one of them being tundra)
24 Wet/intermediate ones.
Now... it is true that many of the wet climates can be represented by changing the vegetation feature. But not all of them. It is also true that me and Laskaris decided to exclude at least 7 of the wet ones (because they were too similar) but that still leaves us with 17 wet/intermediate climates.
I will post a list of terrains we need for the full range covered by the GeoRealism engine soon.
Do you know where the current terrain types would fit in the Köppen climate classification? Knowing that could help know what we would need to fit in.
Yes. I do. I will revisit my suggested and current plans/model for the new terrain system shortly. I don't want to re-debate everything we debated before because we did finally come to a sort of consensus previously (albeit I know that I sort of had the last word because I am the one designing the engine and have a good idea of how to make it all work the way it should).
IF you guys want to add on to the list I suggest then that is your decision but I will give you my minimum suggestion.
Ok, so my guess was like ...
Af (Tropical Rainforest) = Lush/Muddy/Marsh + Jungle
Am (Tropical Monsoon) = Lush/Muddy/Marsh + Jungle
Aw (Tropical Savanna) = Grass/Plains/Scrub + Savanna
BWh (Hot Desert) = Dunes
BWk (Cold Desert) = Desert/Permafrost
BSh (Mild Desert) = Desert
BSk (Semi-Cold Desert) = Scrub/Desert
Csa/Csb (Mediterranean) = Coast + Scrub
Cfa/Cwa (Humid Subtropical Climate) = Lush/Muddy + Forest
Cwb/Cfb (Subtropical Highland Climate) = Coast + Lush/Muddy + Forest + Hill
Cwc (Dry) = Coast + Plains/Scrub
Cfc (Subpolar) = Coast + Barren/Scrub
Dfa/Dwa/Dsa (Hot Humid Continental Climate) = Lush/Grass/Plains + Forest/Jungle
Dfb/Dwb/Dsb (Warm Humid Continental Climate) = Lush/Grass/Plains + Forest
Dfc/Dwc/Dfd/Dwd/Dsc/Dsd (Subarctic Climate) = Tundra/Permafrost + Forest
ET = Tundra/Peak
EF = Ice
Many parts of of your guess is right hydro, but some parts are not.
The biggest problem is that you are still misusing the "lush" concept.
No, no I remember our debates about soil quality. This was just my guess using the terrains we have. Mainly categorizing by moisture and temperature.
Order of Moisture of Existing Terrains (Wet to Dry)
- Barren / Rocky
- Desert / Tundra
- Dunes / Permafrost
- Salt Flats / Ice
Order of Temperature of Existing Terrains (Hot to Cold)
- Salt Flats
- Scrub / Barren / Rocky / Plains / Grassland / Lush / Muddy / Marsh
The first thing that needs to be established is that the GeoRealism mod separates soil from most vegetation. The only kind of vegetation that is considered to be part of the "terrain" is "Micro-vegetation such as grass. In addition to micro-cover vegetation there are types of soils to consider
Vegetations that would be considered to be "micro cover"
Ferns (and other forest floor foliage)
Basic soil types and their Scientific Classification
Rocky (Entisol), Barren (Inceptisols)
Soils requiring a description (in order of increasing wetness)
Climate of Formation
Tundra; low altitude, non-coastal, boreal forests (Tiaga)
black, soft, grassland soils. These are the TRUE LUSH soils
Limited seasonal rains
(highly organic soils of colder regions)
Cooler, Limited seasonal rains
shrinking and swelling clay soils
Warmer, extensive seasonal rains
(Acidic, coniferous forest soils )
West coast forests, highland forests
Soils formed in volcanic material
(not specific to climate)
Deciduous forest soils
East coast forests
East coast, highly weathered short-grassland soils
Extreme seasonal rains, monsoon
Soils formed in organic materials; high detritus
Swamps and marshlands
Extremely weathered tropical soils
Tropical rainforests, monsoon
Here is my suggested breakdown of Terrain Types (in order of increasing wetness)
NOTE: Some of the TerrainsMod suggestions may already be in use by C2C. I currently dont have access to the graphics though to check since they are packed up in an archive file. Also note that one or two of these were not in the original list we decided on.
New Terrain Type
Existing Terrain Type/Graphic
Salt flats *IMO THIS SHOULD BE A FEATURE, NOT A TERRAIN
some small shrubbery
occasional grass, weeds, scrubs
sparse grass, occasional weeds and shrubs
Current Lush (with different stats)
Alpine Tundra OR Temperate Broadleaf (both from TerrainsMod)
TerrainsMod Subtropical Rainforest
(NEEDED) OR Modified Lush OR Possibly TerrainsMod SubTropical Dry
(Mollisol, Altisol, or Alfisol? Uncertain
TerrainsMod Tree Savanna
Ferns, Tropical Forest Vegitation
SubTropical Dry OR Tropical Rainforest(Both from TerrainsMod)
Varies with climate
TerrainsMod Tropical Rainforest
Varies with climate
SubTropical Dry OR Mediterranean (both TerrainsMod)
A breakdown of which terrains would be used in which climates can be done later. I will post it in the GeoRealism Vegetation thread because essentially, that is what this kind of post would be explaining.
NOTE: Which graphics are used for items whose last columns say "...OR..." in them are up for grabs. Lets discuss them.
Just in case.... here are the terrains used in the "Terrains Mod"
Here is my proposal ...
- Dunes = Dunes (Default C2C)
- Desert = Desert (Default C2C)
- Salt Flats = Salt Flats (Default C2C)
- Scrub = Scrub (Default C2C)
- Rocky = Rocky (Default C2C)
- Barren = Arid Flat (Planetfall Mod)
- Tundra = Ice (Default C2C)
- Taiga = Permafrost (Default C2C)
- Rich Loam = Grassland (Dune Wars)
- Plains = Plains (Alt Terrain C2C)
- Humid Scrub = Lush (Default C2C)
- Boreal = Tundra (Default C2C)
- Coniferous = Mediterranean (Terrain Mod)
- Deciduous = Subtropical Rainforest (Terrain Mod)
- Grass = Grassland (Vanilla Civ4)
- Marsh = Marsh (Default C2C)
- Swamp = Wet Flat (Planetfall Mod)
- Savanna = Tree Savanna (Terrain Mod)
- Rainforest = Grassland (Default C2C)
- Mud = Muddy (Default C2C)
- Volcanic = Rocky Rainy (Planetfall Mod)
- Volcanic Cold = Barren (Default C2C)
Note that C2C and the Terrain Mod share some terrain art such as ...
Tundra (Default C2C) = Tundra (Terrain Mod)
Permafrost (Default C2C) = Alpine Tundra (Terrain Mod)
Ice (Default C2C) = Polar (Terrain Mod)
Grassland (Default C2C) = Tropical Rainforest (Terrain Mod)
This is why I changed some of your suggestion to include other mods such as Planetfall and Dune Wars. This proposal I think allows for all terrains to be distinguishable from each other.
Here are my likes and issues with your proposal:
Tundra is completely wrong. I realize I forgot one soil: ice. So Ice needs to remain ice (add that to my list). Tundra is an arctic desert so having it covered with ice would be wrong.
I like your new choice for barren.
Tiaga needs some vegetation/green. Unless you can find a better graphic, I am sticking with my recommendation of using the vanilla tundra.
Boreal needs a cold pine needle look which is why I chose the graphic I did. I am going to stick with my recommendation (use the temperate broadleaf; not the alpine tundra)
Rich loam has the wrong color soil (should be dark brown) and WAY too much grass. However, this graphic might work for Humid Scrub. Basically rich loam should be a darker version of plains with a tiny bit of green. One way to get this might be to darken the savannah picture.
Humid Scrub is WAY too green. An example of what I am calling "Humid Scrub" soil is found in the middle of Texas. San Antonio and west to just east of Fort Stockton. (See my picture below)
Your deciduous picture seems to be the Subtropical dry. I agree with your worded choice though.
Your choice for Swamp isn’t bad but it is a little too green. Needs a very wet look.
I like your volcanic choice except that we need to add some green and soil color. It is TOO rocky.
Same with cold volcanic. We should add some vegetation (or maybe use vanilla tundra if not used for tiaga)
An example of what "Humid Scrub" looks like:
You know what? Your swamp graphic reminds me of the midwest from an airplane. Perhaps if we lessened the green slightly and added a brown tint and added some earthy paches it could work for rich loam.
Don't forget that someone published something like 2,000 terrains for Civ IV. Unfortunately they did not provide any pictures.
WOW. Where can we find them?
I think I may have found it. Except that it is 200, not 2000. Is this what you are talking about?
Infinite Terrain Pack
Separate names with a comma.