New Terrain

Some of the terrains are not changed between 1 and 2, (or if they are then you can't tell)

I like most of #2 changes, however, I prefer #1's dunes. and think #2'srocky should be darker.

These new terrains for will make the dark and desert rock forms no longer match as well.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
The two terrains. I post a better set when we get signs working again.
Click to expand...

Looking at the two I think we may want to change the default plains texture to the alt version texture since it looks better. But I still feel that the 2nd ones arid textures (desert, dunes, rocky, scrub, barren) are just to similar and washed out to be included as a default texture.
 
Nevets_ said:
If you guys are reconsidering changing the desert texture I made this a while back, might be useful:

KF2vG.jpg
Click to expand...

Folks... This was a HUGE discussion a while back in the first GeoRealism and the Georealism vegetation threads. Making more desert terrains to include differences in sand color is unnecessary.

We DON'T NEED ANY MORE DRY TERRAINS. WE NEED MORE WET ONES. If you want to represent all the climates more accurately we need to focus on developing moist terrains.

Take a look at how many more moist environments that exist as compared to dry ones.
koppen_climate_legend.png


Count them :
5 Dry climates (one of them being tundra)
24 Wet/intermediate ones.

Now... it is true that many of the wet climates can be represented by changing the vegetation feature. But not all of them. It is also true that me and Laskaris decided to exclude at least 7 of the wet ones (because they were too similar) but that still leaves us with 17 wet/intermediate climates.

I will post a list of terrains we need for the full range covered by the GeoRealism engine soon.
 
Hydromancerx said:
@primem0ver

Do you know where the current terrain types would fit in the Köppen climate classification? Knowing that could help know what we would need to fit in.
Click to expand...

Yes. I do. I will revisit my suggested and current plans/model for the new terrain system shortly. I don't want to re-debate everything we debated before because we did finally come to a sort of consensus previously (albeit I know that I sort of had the last word because I am the one designing the engine and have a good idea of how to make it all work the way it should).

IF you guys want to add on to the list I suggest then that is your decision but I will give you my minimum suggestion.
 
Ok, so my guess was like ...

Af (Tropical Rainforest) = Lush/Muddy/Marsh + Jungle
Am (Tropical Monsoon) = Lush/Muddy/Marsh + Jungle
Aw (Tropical Savanna) = Grass/Plains/Scrub + Savanna

BWh (Hot Desert) = Dunes
BWk (Cold Desert) = Desert/Permafrost
BSh (Mild Desert) = Desert
BSk (Semi-Cold Desert) = Scrub/Desert

Csa/Csb (Mediterranean) = Coast + Scrub

Cfa/Cwa (Humid Subtropical Climate) = Lush/Muddy + Forest
Cwb/Cfb (Subtropical Highland Climate) = Coast + Lush/Muddy + Forest + Hill
Cwc (Dry) = Coast + Plains/Scrub
Cfc (Subpolar) = Coast + Barren/Scrub

Dfa/Dwa/Dsa (Hot Humid Continental Climate) = Lush/Grass/Plains + Forest/Jungle
Dfb/Dwb/Dsb (Warm Humid Continental Climate) = Lush/Grass/Plains + Forest
Dfc/Dwc/Dfd/Dwd/Dsc/Dsd (Subarctic Climate) = Tundra/Permafrost + Forest

ET = Tundra/Peak
EF = Ice
 
Many parts of of your guess is right hydro, but some parts are not.

The biggest problem is that you are still misusing the "lush" concept.
 
primem0ver said:
Many parts of of your guess is right hydro, but some parts are not.

The biggest problem is that you are still misusing the "lush" concept.
Click to expand...

No, no I remember our debates about soil quality. This was just my guess using the terrains we have. Mainly categorizing by moisture and temperature.

Order of Moisture of Existing Terrains (Wet to Dry)
- Marsh
- Muddy
- Lush
- Grass
- Plains
- Barren / Rocky
- Scrub
- Desert / Tundra
- Dunes / Permafrost
- Salt Flats / Ice

Order of Temperature of Existing Terrains (Hot to Cold)
- Salt Flats
- Dunes
- Desert
- Scrub / Barren / Rocky / Plains / Grassland / Lush / Muddy / Marsh
- Tundra
- Permafrost
- Ice
 
The first thing that needs to be established is that the GeoRealism mod separates soil from most vegetation. The only kind of vegetation that is considered to be part of the "terrain" is "Micro-vegetation such as grass. In addition to micro-cover vegetation there are types of soils to consider

Vegetations that would be considered to be "micro cover"
Short Grasses
Ferns (and other forest floor foliage)
Flowers
Weeds
"Tiny" bushes

Basic soil types and their Scientific Classification

Non-Soils
Rocky (Entisol), Barren (Inceptisols)

Dry Soils:
Sand (Aridosols)

Soils requiring a description (in order of increasing “wetness”)
Soil Type | Description | Climate of Formation
Gelisols|permafrost soils|Tundra; low altitude, non-coastal, boreal forests (Tiaga)
Mollisols|black, soft, grassland soils. These are the TRUE LUSH soils|Limited seasonal rains
Histosols|(highly organic soils of colder regions)|Cooler, Limited seasonal rains
Vertisols|shrinking and swelling clay soils|Warmer, extensive seasonal rains
Spodisols|(Acidic, coniferous forest soils )|West coast forests, highland forests
Andisols|Soils formed in volcanic material|(not specific to climate)
Alfisols|Deciduous forest soils|East coast forests
Ultisols|East coast, highly weathered short-grassland soils|Extreme seasonal rains, monsoon
Histosols|Soils formed in organic materials; high detritus|Swamps and marshlands
Oxisols|Extremely weathered tropical soils|Tropical rainforests, monsoon

Here is my suggested breakdown of Terrain Types (in order of increasing wetness)
NOTE: Some of the “TerrainsMod” suggestions may already be in use by C2C. I currently don’t have access to the graphics though to check since they are packed up in an archive file. Also note that one or two of these were not in the original list we decided on.

New Terrain Type | Soil Type | Micro-vegetation type | Existing Terrain Type/Graphic
Dunes|Aridosol|(none)|Dunes
Desert|Aridosol|(none)|Desert
(SaltFlats*)|Aridosol|(none)|Salt flats *IMO THIS SHOULD BE A FEATURE, NOT A TERRAIN
Scrub|Aridosol|some small shrubbery|Scrub
Rocky|Entisol|(none)|Rocky
Barren|Inceptisol|(none)|Barren
Tundra|Gelisol|(none)| TerrainsMod Permafrost
Tiaga|Coastal Gelisol|occasional grass, weeds, scrubs|Tundra
RichLoam|Mollisol|occasional weeds| (NEEDED)
Plains|Histosol|occasional weeds|Plains
HumidScrub|Vertisol|sparse grass, occasional weeds and shrubs|Current Lush (with different stats)
Boreal|Spodisol|(none)|Alpine Tundra OR Temperate Broadleaf (both from TerrainsMod)
Coniferous|Spodisol|Ferns|TerrainsMod Mediterranean
Deciduous|Alfisol|Ferns|TerrainsMod Subtropical Rainforest
Grass|Altisol|Grass|Grass
Marsh|Histosol|Marsh grass|Marsh
Swamp|Histosol|(none)| (NEEDED) OR Modified Lush OR Possibly TerrainsMod SubTropical Dry
Savanna|(Mollisol, Altisol, or Alfisol? Uncertain|Grass|TerrainsMod Tree Savanna
Rainforest|Oxisol|Ferns, Tropical Forest Vegitation|SubTropical Dry OR Tropical Rainforest(Both from TerrainsMod)
Mud|(Deforested Oxisol/Altisol)|(None)|Mud
Volcanic|Andisol|Varies with climate|TerrainsMod Tropical Rainforest
VolcanicCold|Andisol|Varies with climate|SubTropical Dry OR Mediterranean (both TerrainsMod)

A breakdown of which terrains would be used in which climates can be done later. I will post it in the GeoRealism Vegetation thread because essentially, that is what this kind of post would be explaining.

NOTE: Which graphics are used for items whose last columns say "...OR..." in them are up for grabs. Lets discuss them.

Just in case.... here are the terrains used in the "Terrains Mod"
attachment.php
 
@primem0ver

Here is my proposal ...

attachment.php


- Dunes = Dunes (Default C2C)
- Desert = Desert (Default C2C)
- Salt Flats = Salt Flats (Default C2C)
- Scrub = Scrub (Default C2C)
- Rocky = Rocky (Default C2C)
- Barren = Arid Flat (Planetfall Mod)
- Tundra = Ice (Default C2C)
- Taiga = Permafrost (Default C2C)
- Rich Loam = Grassland (Dune Wars)
- Plains = Plains (Alt Terrain C2C)
- Humid Scrub = Lush (Default C2C)
- Boreal = Tundra (Default C2C)
- Coniferous = Mediterranean (Terrain Mod)
- Deciduous = Subtropical Rainforest (Terrain Mod)
- Grass = Grassland (Vanilla Civ4)
- Marsh = Marsh (Default C2C)
- Swamp = Wet Flat (Planetfall Mod)
- Savanna = Tree Savanna (Terrain Mod)
- Rainforest = Grassland (Default C2C)
- Mud = Muddy (Default C2C)
- Volcanic = Rocky Rainy (Planetfall Mod)
- Volcanic Cold = Barren (Default C2C)

Note that C2C and the Terrain Mod share some terrain art such as ...

Tundra (Default C2C) = Tundra (Terrain Mod)
Permafrost (Default C2C) = Alpine Tundra (Terrain Mod)
Ice (Default C2C) = Polar (Terrain Mod)
Grassland (Default C2C) = Tropical Rainforest (Terrain Mod)

This is why I changed some of your suggestion to include other mods such as Planetfall and Dune Wars. This proposal I think allows for all terrains to be distinguishable from each other.
 

Attachments

  • c2cterrain2.jpg
    c2cterrain2.jpg
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Here are my likes and issues with your proposal:
  • Tundra is completely wrong. I realize I forgot one soil: ice. So Ice needs to remain ice (add that to my list). Tundra is an arctic desert so having it covered with ice would be wrong.
  • I like your new choice for barren.
  • Tiaga needs some vegetation/green. Unless you can find a better graphic, I am sticking with my recommendation of using the vanilla tundra.
  • Boreal needs a cold pine needle look which is why I chose the graphic I did. I am going to stick with my recommendation (use the temperate broadleaf; not the alpine tundra)
  • Rich loam has the wrong color soil (should be dark brown) and WAY too much grass. However, this graphic might work for Humid Scrub. Basically rich loam should be a darker version of plains with a tiny bit of green. One way to get this might be to darken the savannah picture.
  • Humid Scrub is WAY too green. An example of what I am calling "Humid Scrub" soil is found in the middle of Texas. San Antonio and west to just east of Fort Stockton. (See my picture below)
  • Your deciduous picture seems to be the Subtropical dry. I agree with your worded choice though.
  • Your choice for Swamp isn’t bad but it is a little too green. Needs a very wet look.
  • I like your volcanic choice except that we need to add some green and soil color. It is TOO rocky.
  • Same with cold volcanic. We should add some vegetation (or maybe use vanilla tundra if not used for tiaga)

An example of what "Humid Scrub" looks like:
1491742-1309021642292935-p.jpg
 
You know what? Your swamp graphic reminds me of the midwest from an airplane. Perhaps if we lessened the green slightly and added a brown tint and added some earthy paches it could work for rich loam.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
Don't forget that someone published something like 2,000 terrains for Civ IV. Unfortunately they did not provide any pictures.
Click to expand...

WOW. Where can we find them?
 
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