[GS] New units in Gathering Storm

[Boris Gudenuf]

Rock Band
Move: 4
Requires: Cold War
"Can perform a rock concert at a valid venue, including at World Wonders, at a District with one of the required buildings, or at a special target allowed by one of the band's promotions. Their Album Sales stat is the expected Tourism strength at their next concert. After performing concerts their Album Sales and Rock Band Level may increase. Must be purchased with Faith. Cannot perform on the same tile twice."
Rock Band Promotions:

• Album Cover Art: Performs as if 2 levels more experiences on wonder tiles.
• Goes to 11: Civilizations within 10 tiles receive 50% of the Tourism from this concert.
• Music Festival: Performs at National Parks for expected 1000 Tourism and 1 level more experienced.
• Glam Rock: Performs as if 2 levels more experienced on Theater Square district tiles.
• Indie: Performing a concert causes that city to lose 50 Loyalty.
• Arena Rock: Performs as if 2 levels more experienced on Entertainment Complex tiles.
• Religious Rock: Performs a concert that converts the majority religion of that city to the religion founded by the player.
• Space Rock: Performs at Spaceports for expected 1000 Tourism and 1 level more experienced.

Too damn limited. This shows that they are too focused one Contemporary and not Historical events. They are leaving out the first big set of International Performers in the 19th century: singers like Jenny Lind, lecturers like Oscar Wilde or Mark Twain, even actors like Garrett, who could pack houses and venues al over Europe and North America - and would be available in limited numbers in the Industrial Era and later, giving much more scope for use.

Bottom line with all their changes in the Atomic-Information-Future Era: too many games are either over or completely decided by then.

 

[Pietato]

Bottom line with all their changes in the Atomic-Information-Future Era: too many games are either over or completely decided by then.

I believe that is the point. They are trying to make the game more streamlined.

 

[mitsho]

Yeah, rockband is very straightforward. The way they described it though, they didn't come from a social history mindset, they just thought they would be cool... I don't like that they've given us another civil unit to move around the map and micromanage with rockbands. Because they probably haven't fixed the pathfinding AI so you have to move them manually.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Mandekalu Cavalry was a unique unit for the Songhai Civ in Civ6. The Songhai aren't the same as the Mali.

Mandekalu horsemen were used by both empires, but I agree it might be confusing giving Mali them which is why I think they will get the Sofa.

Also I kind of like the rock band. I pretend that it is supposed to embody the Beatles, the most popular rock band in history, and you try to create "Beatlemania" all over the world.

 

[Uberfrog]

Also I kind of like the rock band. I pretend that it is supposed to embody the Beatles, the most popular rock band in history, and you try to create "Beatlemania" all over the world.

Not just the Beatles, but the popular music phenomenon in general. It’s hard to overstate how significant an impact international pop and rock stars have had in terms of global cultural influence with their music and live performances. They make sense as a late game medium for pursuing cultural victories. It’s a nice return for the Great Musician’s ability in Civ V BNW.

 

[Giskler]

 

[acluewithout]

Asked this in the Screenshot Thread...

@Giskler Great work.

Looks like Heavy Cav and Ironclads don’t need two strategic resources (respectively, horses and Iron or Niter, and Iron and Coal), or do we think this is just reflecting upgrade paths - ie screen shots show units that had earlier had already been built with horses and iron?

I know things are still being balanced, but I think it’s a big misstep not having heavy cav require two strategic resources.

What do we think? Two strategic resources for heavy cav, or just one?

I’m still inclined to think two given the Equestrian Orders Card, but the screenshots seem to be telling a different story.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

What does "too many units of the same class" mean? Is there a limit of each type of units now?

 

[AriochIV]

Asked this in the Screenshot Thread...



What do we think? Two strategic resources for heavy cav, or just one?

I’m still inclined to think two given the Equestrian Orders Card, but the screenshots seem to be telling a different story.

I haven't seen any evidence that any unit requires two different strategic resources. I'm not sure where people got this idea.

What does "too many units of the same class" mean? Is there a limit of each type of units now?

It means military, civilian, etc. It's the same limit that exists now; you can't buy a new military or civilian unit if there's already one in the city.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I believe that is the point. They are trying to make the game more streamlined.

Perhaps we have a definition problem here, but I don't believe 'streamlined' means adding mechanics and units that are only useable in the last 10 - 15 % of the game turns and after most games have been decided. Unless that new Unit/Mechanic is an absolute Game Changer it is largely superfluous to most players. And if it is a Game Changer, then you have just massively reduced the importance of the first 400 turns of the game.

My point was that if they wanted to add a mobile multi-platform Culture/Tourism unit they didn't have to pull one out of the last Era or 2 Eras of the game: there are perfectly good historical examples from an Era or two earlier that could be adapted to the purpose, and would have gotten a lot more game time than the After It's Almost All Over 'Rock Band'.

So far, all their emphasis on the end of game play is, to me, a waste of developer resources: I have yet to play any game to the Information Era, because either:
1. The game is already over with a Religion, Culture, or Domination Victory by the beginning of the Modern or Atomic Eras at the latest.
2. The multiple flaws in the execution of the game design bore me senseless by the Industrial Era and I quit and go do something more useful
3. The game is essentially won by the Industrial Era, and everything after that is just piling up Culture or slogging across a large map to reach the last one or two Civ's left unconquered or unconverted. 'One More Turn' is not a Good Thing in Civ VI: it means One More Turn of Boredom. In 1600+ hours of playing, I think I've actually finished about 6 - 7 games. Most of the rest I quit by about turn 150 - 200 because everything after that is going to be Pure Tedium.

Haven't seen anything yet in all the 'reveals that makes me think that is going to change...

 

[acluewithout]

I haven't seen any evidence that any unit requires two different strategic resources. I'm not sure where people got this idea.

I think the only evidence is the Equestrian Orders Card, which reduces both Horse and Iron requirements. Also, I guess, it just seems obvious they would do that given how powerful Heavy Cav are.

Maybe it’s worth asking Ed on twitter? (I’ve no idea how to do that.)

Or maybe @FXS_Sarah can answer? Will Knights and other Heavy Cav need two strategic resources (eg Horses and Iron) or just one? Or is there no decision yet, and this is still being worked on?

(BTW, Sarah, sorry if it’s rude to call out to you directly and or you can’t answer.)

 

[Pietato]

What I meant was, they must be shifting power from the earlier eras to the later ones, so the game actually lasts longer than 200 turns.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

My first thought when they intro'd the Rock Bands was "What happened to the adult in the room when this idea was floated?" Then I remembered that I'm old.

My second thought was that in the livestream build, there's some crazy RNG randomness to these units. Maybe they get eliminated on their first use, but if they don't, it seems they get more powerful? It's a mini snowball based solely on the roll of the dice. I'm guessing this may get tamed down in playtesting.

My third thought was that I like that there's another non-religious unit that's exclusively Faith purchased. It helps to broaden the links between religion and culture, even though the other Faith-only unit is also cultural victory oriented. Flavour-wise, though, Naturalists being Faith-only always bugged me, and Rock Bands make even less sense. Listening to the dev team try to explain how Temples and Shrines lead to more Rock Bands was an awkward moment of observing people in denial.

My final thought was that in the Future Age, a policy that lets you pick whatever promotion you want sounds like eventually "the man" gets to choose who becomes a musician and who doesn't. I therefore hope this policy is called "The Day the Music Died".

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Flavour-wise, though, Naturalists being Faith-only always bugged me, and Rock Bands make even less sense.

Fwiw, it'll be really simple to change the PurchaseYield from Faith to Gold if that makes more sense.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Fwiw, it'll be really simple to change the PurchaseYield from Faith to Gold if that makes more sense.

I get why they didn't make it Gold. Although I've joked in the past that it would be easier for new players to understand it's importance if they'd called Faith "Silver" instead, I get what the dev team is trying to distinguish here. The problem is that it's so heavily tied to religion through the need for Holy Sites, Shrines, Temples, etc.

It might have been neat if instead of "Faith" it was called "Spirit", and if you got a mix of both Spirit and Culture from both Holy Sites and Theatre Squares (with HS buildings more Spirit and some Culture, and TS buildings more Culture and some Spirit). But then, I dislike single yield buildings and districts anyway, and prefer things like the current Zoos, which provide one thing and also something else in certain situations.

 

[acluewithout]

My first thought when they intro'd the Rock Bands was "What happened to the adult in the room when this idea was floated?" Then I remembered that I'm old.

My second thought was that in the livestream build, there's some crazy RNG randomness to these units. Maybe they get eliminated on their first use, but if they don't, it seems they get more powerful? It's a mini snowball based solely on the roll of the dice. I'm guessing this may get tamed down in playtesting.

My third thought was that I like that there's another non-religious unit that's exclusively Faith purchased. It helps to broaden the links between religion and culture, even though the other Faith-only unit is also cultural victory oriented. Flavour-wise, though, Naturalists being Faith-only always bugged me, and Rock Bands make even less sense. Listening to the dev team try to explain how Temples and Shrines lead to more Rock Bands was an awkward moment of observing people in denial.

My final thought was that in the Future Age, a policy that lets you pick whatever promotion you want sounds like eventually "the man" gets to choose who becomes a musician and who doesn't. I therefore hope this policy is called "The Day the Music Died".

I think I’m with you.

The bit the game is maybe missing is though is that, if faith actually has this sort of secular or “spiritual” component, then there needs to be a way to generate faith without building Holy Sites. e.g. maybe a policy card which gives your population faith from High Appeal tiles, or World Wonders, or even Natural Wonders.

There is a little bit of leeway here already given some pantheons give faith (eg stone circles), some Civs have improvements which give faith, and you can get faith from Trade Routes and some Wonders. But that’s really marginal. ... although, maybe if there’s more to do with faith, then these routes might make more sense to pursue.

 

[UWHabs]

I think I’m with you.

The bit the game is maybe missing is though is that, if faith actually has this sort of secular or “spiritual” component, then there needs to be a way to generate faith without building Holy Sites. e.g. maybe a policy card which gives your population faith from High Appeal tiles, or World Wonders, or even Natural Wonders.

There is a little bit of leeway here already given some pantheons give faith (eg stone circles), some Civs have improvements which give faith, and you can get faith from Trade Routes and some Wonders. But that’s really marginal. ... although, maybe if there’s more to do with faith, then these routes might make more sense to pursue.

I wish all the yields had a secondary way to generate them reliably.

For example, faith in the modern era they are using to mean natural yields too. Maybe National Parks should give +faith on each tile. Or, more generally, if at conservation, forests yielded +1 faith, at least there is some small late-game faith bonus. I'd also like to see science from other places, too. Sure, you can get a very minor amount from rainforests and reefs with entertainment complexes, but maybe that should be a general ability with zoos doubling that. Or if they came out with a way to declare yourself as a "free religion", and maybe instead of yielding faith, holy sites now yielded culture instead. Even if all this was done through policy cards, it would add a nice extra element to diversify yourself.

 

[rattatatouille]

So, with the Cuirassier practically confirmed, here are the unit trees as of GS (that we know of) (GS units in bold, R&F units in italics)

Land melee: Warrior (Ancient) > Swordsman (Classical) > Musketman (Renaissance) > Infantry (Modern) > Mech Infantry (Information)
Anti-Cavalry: Spearman (Ancient) > Pikeman (Medieval) > Pike and Shot (Renaissance) > AT Crew (Modern) > Modern AT (Information)
Ranged: Slinger (Ancient) > Archer (Ancient) > Crossbowman (Medieval) > Field Cannon (Industrial) > Machine Gun (Atomic)
Recon: Scout (Ancient) > Skirmisher (Medieval) > Ranger (Industrial) > Spec Ops (Atomic)
Heavy Cav: Heavy Chariot (Ancient) > Knight (Medieval) > Cuirassier (Industrial) > Tank (Modern) > Modern Armor (Information)
Light Cav: Horseman (Classical) > Courser (Medieval) > Cavalry (Industrial) > Helicopter (Atomic)

Not touching naval or air units yet.

 

[Giskler]

Not touching naval or air units yet.

Artillery?

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Artillery?

It appears that Wall strengths have been doubled, from +50 per level to +100. There are changes to Siege units coming, too, that haven't been shown yet.