New Version - Nov. 20th, CBP v. 12.3/ CP v.66.1

[nimling]

When I can take a whole empire from an AI with a few units (never mind the city attack bug with siege units mentioned in the bugs thread), it's way too low, because the AI doesn't prioritize walls or garrison units anywhere near the level it should.

Forcing city walls later in the game is fine (as in, around the time Swords/Cats/Horsemen are a large part of the game), but forcing walls in ancient era is not - it's way too easy to roll over someone (AI or human) with archers, warriors, and spearmen, let alone chariot archers are horsemen.
At the very least, the base strength of cities ought to be 2-3 points higher than it is - not as strong as in the base game, but enough so that archers don't tear apart an ungarrisoned city with impunity.
Of course putting a city attack penalty back on archers would fix the matter too, probably in addition to this.
Another solution would be to boost the HP of cities, including those with defensive buildings.

The per-citizen bonuses aren't just exploitable against the AI, but against human players. As a rule I don't like mechanics which encourage cheesing the game, when there are more elegant solutions.

Spain's OP-ness with natural wonders is something present in the base game, but even stronger (Giant Death Conquistadors notwithstanding...) I don't think it's unreasonable to reduce their faith/culture output by 4/2 and not stand other natural wonder modifiers with Spain's trait. Most Natural Wonders are already stronger in the mod as well.

The patch to Tolerance is another example of cheesing the game. It's not so much that it's too strong, but that it is very ugly to micromanage. I'd even be fine if the policy just gave a boost to your founded religion's pantheon, so it removes the micromanagement of keeping a pantheon as the majority religion.

I like a lot of the revisions to the mod, and would play it over the base game - definitely like the direction of many of the changes made, and the decision not to resort to too many nerfs. There are some points that could use refinement and of course bugs that should be squashed

 

[Funak]

When I can take a whole empire from an AI with a few units (never mind the city attack bug with siege units mentioned in the bugs thread), it's way too low, because the AI doesn't prioritize walls or garrison units anywhere near the level it should.

I think you just found your problem.

Of course putting a city attack penalty back on archers would fix the matter too, probably in addition to this.

I'm completely fine with this aswell, archers shouldn't be good against cities.

 

[Gazebo]

I eventually want the CBP to be multiplayer compatible, so removing exploits would be nice. However, and this is a big however, we have to make the distinction between exploit and strategy. Balance issues will come with time, and will make strategies (like natural wonders) powerful, but risky. Exploits will need to be fixed, if only because we can, and should.

G

 

[Funak]

Exploits will need to be fixed, if only because we can, and should.

Like I said, other mods use a "When a city grows to a size bigger than what it has been before"-line so it probably isn't really a hard fix, you might even have actually scripted it that way from the start, haven't personally tried intentionally starving my cities

 

[Gazebo]

Like I said, other mods use a "When a city grows to a size bigger than what it has been before"-line so it probably isn't really a hard fix, you might even have actually scripted it that way from the start, haven't personally tried intentionally starving my cities

I did – I was just referring to exploits in general.
G

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

It's more subtle than that though. In a vacuum, a strictly Tradition civ would start off fast but slow down overall, while a Liberty civ would start off slower and pick up steam. I say slow down overall because while the capital becomes a monster city, you only have one production queue which gets the job done quickly, while a Liberty civ can build a single Forge or Stable in each city and get the Granaries, Libraries, etc. up to have higher quality cities faster than Tradition will.

From Classical on, a Liberty start ends up being stronger for overall production, but then again Tradition has 25% GPP so that Palace Engineer becomes even more effective if used for Manufactories.

I'd say it's a draw overall on production and Liberty favors patience and planning, while Tradition favors an Engineering Capital and higher dependence on it.

I fear it doesn't work this way. +14 % prod on buildings and +1 prod in every city aren't that great. Settling cities earlier thanks to the settler spamming super capital helps getting cities working fast way more.
City planning is weak on small cities as the early pop is cheap. -50% road maintenance is solid, but it takes time to be of real use and is better mid to late game.
Same goes for the happiness-bonus per every 6th citizen. Great policy, but not early on.

Liberty isn't a bad policy tree, but it seems better to me as a second choice after finishing tradition, grabing its rocket start boni (+8 food, super early engineer) and use the snowballing effect to do what you want with your advantage.

 

[Funak]

City planning is weak on small cities as the early pop is cheap.

I disagree with mostly everything you said, with the exception of this. I was saying this from the start, but city planning is horrible. Its the policy that you feel forced to take just to get your finisher. I found myself thinking "Do I really need the great engineer now or can I open another tree instead of grabbing city planning" and that's really never a good place for a policy to be in.

Other than that, you're completely right about liberty being more lategame focused, but that isn't anywhere near a bad thing all the bonuses in liberty other than city planning is extremely solid for the entire game, while tradition might end up with a somewhat bigger capital, you're going to have the advantage of actually developed cities. Also, you're going to get your engineer from the finisher around the same time as tradition gets their so I don't think thats that much of an advantage (and you don't need to work a specialistslot with 0 food to get it )

 

[Funak]

Also, I have no idea if this is a bug or a tooltip error or if I misunderstood the ability, but the Netherlands UA doesn't seem to work for me, it gives me 3 gold and 2 culture no matter how many trades I have. Was that intended? because in that case I misread the original post.

 

[Gazebo]

Also, I have no idea if this is a bug or a tooltip error or if I misunderstood the ability, but the Netherlands UA doesn't seem to work for me, it gives me 3 gold and 2 culture no matter how many trades I have. Was that intended? because in that case I misread the original post.

Should give 3/2 per resource imported/exported - see the tooltips for traits under culture and gold on the top panel bar. It works, or rather it did when I tested it last (and I haven't messed with it since then).

G

 

[Funak]

Should give 3/2 per resource imported/exported - see the tooltips for traits under culture and gold on the top panel bar. It works, or rather it did when I tested it last (and I haven't messed with it since then).

G

That's where I checked, and it just showed 3/2 even when i had maybe 7 different outgoing trades. It also showed 3/2 when I had zero incoming trades for some reason

 

[Gazebo]

That's where I checked, and it just showed 3/2 even when i had maybe 7 different outgoing trades. It also showed 3/2 when I had zero incoming trades for some reason

Not using EUI, I presume? It works for me on my end.
G

 

[Funak]

Not using EUI, I presume? It works for me on my end.
G

Not using EUI, guess I'll try another game and see if I get the same issue, might have been a onetime thing or something.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Not sure if this is the right thread to post an observation made in a game with a later version of the mod, but I since the change I suspect responsible was made here...

I adopted "Civilizing mission" and luckily conquered an (and also my first in that game ) enemy city. It turned out that was probably the best decision in a so far mediocre game of mine (with an absolutely outstanding and great mod, which teached the AI some nasty fresh efficient behaviour!!!) - I received a whopping 6000(!) Gold (on top of the "normal" plunder somewhere in the 220's)

It was a 20+ pop city of the opponent, but still I considered the sum to be so high to report here:

1) Is such a sum intended in even the most extreme circumstances?
2) Will I receive that "grand grant" in future after every conquest or is that a one-time only thing (the policy text is rather vague on that, at least in my eyes)

 

[Gazebo]

That may be a little high. What civ were you? Also, what other policies or religious beliefs did you have that affected city conquest?

What do you mean by 'Nast fresh efficiency behavior?' I don't know if that is a good thing or not!

G

 

[Pfeffersack]

That may be a little high. What civ were you? Also, what other policies or religious beliefs did you have that affected city conquest?

Babylon, King difficulty: Liberty, Might and Imperialism maxed out. Own Religion (thought not much widespread even inside my own empire): Sacred path, Council of Elders, Mastery, Stupas, Holy Warriors.

Next City gave between 6000-7000, so it for sure a permanent Thing (but at least not when taking back your own cities )

What do you mean by 'Nast fresh efficiency behavior?' I don't know if that is a good thing or not!

G

It is meant absolutely positive Starting with diplomacy and the WC up to behaviour in combat, espionage or City state handling. The AI behaviour is more varied and it isn't as easy to exploit them.

Some issues remain (e.g. careless embarking of AI Units in dangerous areas), but the improvements are astonishing already!

 

[Gazebo]

Might + Imperialism will result in large amounts of gold from city conquest. I'll reduce these values a bit in the next version. Glad you are enjoying it thus far!

G

 

[Pfeffersack]

More feedback from the same game (posting again here, as I can imagine the some issues might have been fixed in the meantime; I'm just don't playing as fast as you get out new versions ), now being close to the end. I might give up now and start over with your new built...

First some praise...

- No more easy taking down AIs with bombers. AI puts up AA-units everywhere, so you really have to fight you way through, be it with ground units or air fighters
- No more easy dominating of CS, the AI knows and uses the tool of diplomats - and as a side effect, I can see Greece becoming less dominant (which I subjectively think is a good move) Though, at least in the version I played here, other issues have popped up (see below)
- Not so predictable World Congress anymore, especially when it comes to electing the host
- I like the better and more flexible price model on the diplo,atic table. You know feel when the AI really wants something and makes you a sweet offer!
- The revamped happiness systems plays out interesting - things get most hairy in war times, as you would expect - while in peace times you can keep things in check...provided that you care. i have the first time the feeling to really care for the needs of my people, instead of maxing out benefits for higher goals without any consequence.

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Possible issues:

1) Great Diplomats...I'm churning out those guys like nothing...I have two cities pumping out one almost every turn And I use them now to roll the field from the back, after having neglected use of normal diplomats over the entire game.
Also, which all the diplomats around, some other elements of city state diplomacy lose power (e.g. Unit gifting...10 or even 20 points...a GD gives you roughly 8x), including quests. Finally, the AI spams normal diplomats (not bad per se), which sometimes causes traffic issues in your own land, when you carelessly open boders (but maybe that it intended that you care more about whom you let in? )

2) AIs seem to get more and more problems with managing happiness in the late game - see the pic. I'm not refering to the myself running autocracy or the two lonely order civs - what frightens me is that even many freedom civs are deep in the red happiness (add the Freedom Ottmans with -44, being truncated by limit screen space)

3) Heathen conversion wasn't directly changed by this mod, but probably the frequent revolts caused by 2) can make this really powerful - I converted myself several dozen of units over the course of the game. While in the first stage of
the game those units were mainly barbs (some from barb threat quests to CSs), but from the mid game on I was able to really farm units from CSs which AI hegemons got revolts and where the rebels popped up in CSs.

4) GAs - far too many for my taste. Mainly caused by too many things giving you too frequently GA points. But IIRC, you already have changed a few things here

5) I recall getting my first Archeologist before I was able to use it. But thats not necessarily bad again - so you can prepare yourself abit for the upcoming race.

6) Not a problem of your mod, not even from the main game this time. I'm one of those loving huge maps with 16 players (I would go for the maximum, if that wouldn't cause issues with the world congress interface, were votes get truncated) - and so I came to the point of where the game runned out for Great Musican names (and as consequence, Great Works)

7) Overall, I would recommend to be careful with giving out too much boni (especially for things happening frequently like tile acquisitions, pop increase or GP spending). I know it is a work in progress and its better to implement effects bold first and tone them down later, if necessary then the other way round. But there's a snowballing danger; that feeling that everything in your mod pushed something else extra... Especially the fact that it was rather easy for me to get much more policies then in the main game (after 395 turns: with Liberty, Might, Imperialism, Rationalism 4 Complete trees, Autocracy maxed out save for one tier1, Industry opener and Aesthetics Opener +1 Policy)) can be turned into picking "the right" ones to keep your steam-snowball rolling.

8) Addiction danger. Inability to start game without this mod in place.