Newcomer Feedback#1: Names are intimidating

[Sarkyn]

Feedback from an old newb

Having just completed my first FFH2022f game, I thought I'd offer some feedback into how FFH plays for a (very) experienced Civ gamer coming to this mod for the first time. I'll make a few posts, to make my suggestions to the excellent team, that'll be clearer I think.

But firstly, I enjoyed it IMMENSELY and I'm completely hooked.

I will be diving back in immediately for a second game on a harder level (I played it on an easy level to get used to the units, the tech tree).

I do however, have some suggestions for how you might be persuaded into making this mod a little bit more newbie friendly. I'll post one at a time, I don't want to flood.

This is the first (and I think) most important:

Specific Nation/Race Names Make it hard to get into

Your universe is rich and colourful and very interesting. Your race and leader names are very colourful, as well.

But I find them to be a intimidating impediment to smooth gameplay, for 3 reasons I can really define.

1. I found it hard to understand the choices I was asked to make.
   
   I loaded FFH about 3-4 times before I played my first game. Every time I would get past the great thrilling movie, and approach the race and leader choice screen, be intimidated by the meaningless words on the left hand side of the screen, and end up giving up.
   
   While the "Real" race names are very colourful to people who know them intimately, they are a really big put-off to a first time player coming to this mod. I don't know what they mean. I carefully read each one, and get to the end and think "I still don't know which to play". I read a few again, try to narrow down my choices, and (4 times out of 5), I give it up as too hard.
   
   
2. Part of playing Civ is making the game your own.
   
   I like your game, but I like the world in my own mind better. I'd like to rename your elves, or pretend that your goblins are my goblins, for example. Part of the immersive fun is making the world the users own.
   
   Just as I'd rather call my cities by my names, and my race by my names, I'd rather my opponents names were sufficiently generic not to break that immersion.
   
   
3. I haven't a clue who Civs are when I meet them.
   
   I meet a civilisation. I read a name I could never pronounce. I can't remember if they're the vampire one, the dark elf one, or the human raiders one. I give up and don't bother looking it up, so all the lovely colour is wasted on me, I just think of them as "The White One" or "The Pink One".
   
   The worse case of this was when I declared war on the wrong person because I got the names mixed up. That's what made me decide to post here.

Suggestion: Specifics in Civpedia, Generic in Game

Generic fantasy names would solve this, make your mod far far easier for a casual player to pick up and enjoy, and not remove your lovely custom world, just clarify it for us.

- Use the "real" nation names in the Civ and Flavour text. People will read it, and enjoy it there. It's not that I'm suggesting you delete it, just don't use it in the screens where instant recognition is more important than flavour

- Rename them to staple fantasy names like "Crusaders", "Dark Elves", "Gold Dwarves", "Deep Dwarves", "Wood Elves", "Goblinkin", "Vampires", "Plainsmen", etc etc.

Then when approaching the game for the first time, I'd go "Oh, I always play elves, I'll pick them" and be into the game in seconds.

When I find a new contact in the game, it'll clearly say "Dark Elf Warrior", or "Demon Galley" or "Vampire Settler", I'll instantly recognise who I am dealing with and the game will flow better.

I'll still have all the lovely character-filled flavour text available to me in the civilopedia, as screens of text on technologies, that sort of thing. It's not wasted or going away, it's just a little clearer and instantly recognisable.

If you don't think this is what established users might want, maybe offer an alternative patch that just replaces the one file these names are kept in? Then a "newbie" user (or one who prefers to live their own universe out) can opt for generic names.

Anyway, just my 0.02€!

 

[much2much]

Great feedback! I agree totally.

Can Axemen please be renamed to "Better Warrior" and Macemen to "Best Warrior".

It is too confusing to me to remember the differences and going into Civilopedia burns so many kilojoules I need to eat another donut.

GO TEAM!

 

[Kael]

Thats interesting feedback. I honestly wouldn't ever dream of going with more generic fantasy names. But I think your absolutly right about that being a significant barrier to new casual players getting into FfH.

So, just as you suggest, we have to find a way to balance out all the flavor with not being to confusing. I'd like to consider the following:

1. Name review, maybe some names are just to obscure? Should the Ljosalfar be changed to the Seelie Court and the Svartalfar to the Unseelie court? Can we find better names that aren't generic names?

2. FfH2 will never be "lean and mean". We will always have tons of units, buildings, spells, mechanics even above the already pretty complex Civ4. There is no good or bad to that (well.. for mass appeal thats actually bad) but thats the game the team and I want to play so that the game we will be making. At the end of the day you can't be all things so you have to decide what you are and do it well. FfH2 is "big".

3. With the understanding from #2 out of the way, every mechanic and object in FfH2 should be considered for removal if it isn't good enough. We don't ever want to add stuff just to add stuff and we occasionally cut mechanics and objects to help the game be not so bloated. "Shadow" will see the removal of lots of units (maybe up to half) and I think that in a lot of cases we can cut things without losing any of the fun.

4. Everything in FfH2 is dynamic and has the potential to break archetypes (or breaks them already) so its not as easy as placing fantasy archetype tags on them. The orcs could turn good and start sending missionaries into your lands. The "good elves" could turn evil and the "dark elves" could turn good. The "crusaders" could turn into demon worshippers. At that point the tags could add confusion to the game instead of removing it.

5. The rule of seZ. One thing that I think will help distinguish civs in game is unique art for all of the units. If we have a uniform style for each civ it should be very easy to recognize them by their units and track who they are.

6. Remember that FfH2 isn't done yet. We still have a lot to do. In reagrds to this problem we will have 18 scenarios in the "Ice" phase. Each of these scenarios spotlights a different civ (with 3 scenarios covering 2 civs) and I think that running through a few will help ease new players into the FfH world as well as to the mechanics (some of the starting scenarios introduce the player to magic, capturing animals, etc).

 

[monolith94]

Meh, there are already enough tools to help new users. For example, on the bottom right hand screen, where it shows your diplomatic connections, the nations have their moral alignment displayed. That's one clue right there. I really don't think the learning curve is as steep as you make it out to be. I remember my very first game as the Kuriotates, not being able to figure out why none of my cities past three would grow... but I quickly caught on.

In short: no.

 

[seZereth]

Hmm, in a way I can understand Sarkyn. And his suggestion of something like a "newbie" patch isnt bad, and remember guys... this is very easy mod-able for everyone, so why dont some of the creative fans here create a patch replacing some names with generic stuff or adding them in brackets or whatever and offer it as a "mod/file" here. Maybe Kael can link to it in the download spot and lable it with something like: quickstart names for people who want to get started right away before reading into the universe..." or something like this.
Second option, which is a lot of work, ask Hexagonian to dedicate one screen in the intro movie to each Race, showing the name, both leaders (so people remember the pic when choosing their leader) and a rough visual outline of what they are about (not as abstract as it is now)?
The other thing is, Ice will bring the scenarios which will do both: tutorial of mechanics and introduction into the deep universe.

 

[Sarkyn]

Thankyou for taking the time to reply, Kael.

In any development, there is always a finely tuned decision to make whenever "The game that you and the other developers want to play" and the "game that would attract a wider audience, and therefore more developers to help us make it even better".

This was, as stated, a "newcomers" perspective, and this difference is one that will stall a lot of people at the first hurdle.

I'd argue that it's better to get people in FIRST by easing the path and then let them enjoy the flavour of your world over time as they play.

Scenarios aren't really a solution I'd favour - most of the civ players I know don't ever play them at all.


Would it be easy to produce a second data file for replacing the names?

If so, perhaps make it an option? Then people could "flavour" your mod very efficiently, even making a LOTR version, and indeed any version to match their own fantasy campaigns.




@ sarcastic replies:

Yes, it's in the Civilopedia. However that adds a lookup time of 5-10 seconds to find it, read it and then close it before a player can move on. In the first game, that's occuring on every building, every race, every leader trait, every unit. It's too much.

While an experienced player of the mod such as yourselves doesn't need to do this, this additional time will put off new users. Heck, it did put me off repeatedly from playing what I know now to be an awesome game.

Instant recognition leads to faster perceived gameplay.


Final word:

I'd argue that this mod is easily better than Warlords, and possibly one of the best things i've played in a long time. I'd hate to see it have a smaller user base than it deserves when with a few accessibility tweaks it could gain a massive, massive audience.

I'd be happy to help with that, if I can.

 

[Kael]

Yes, its easy to "mod the mod" and change those tags to generic names, or LotR names, etc.

 

[Grey Fox]

To be frank, I'd say HELL NO to the suggestion about using generic names. (sorry if this comes out as rude , it's not meant to be)

It just wouldn't be Fall From Heaven if Ljosalfar was named Light Elves, or Amurites was named The Mages.

Trust me, you will learn which civ is what, if you feel overwhelmed at first that's just natural. It IS a complete overhaul of the game, and it IS a new world you are entering. Just like when you read a new book series for the first time, or watch a new movie.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

1. Name review, maybe some names are just to obscure? Should the Ljosalfar be changed to the Seelie Court and the Svartalfar to the Unseelie court? Can we find better names that aren't generic names?

Oh, now you're going to change to names that I can spell the same twice in a row?

My initial reaction to FfH 2 (the first release after playing FfH1) was the same bewilderment. I couldn't figure out who the guy with the book was, or the kid, etc. My advice, just pick one civ you enjoy and read a little about it each time. After a few games it will make more sense.

Or else, there is an easy to use editor (need excel) already in the FfH Mod folder. You can quickly change all the civ names, hit export, and bam, it's your universe now.

 

[TheBoatman]

Many races' names don't have English analogies and even if they do FFH2 civs can have various features according to their leaders (e.g. elves can be good or neutral).

What generic names would you make for Kuriotates, Doviello, Illians or Sheaim?
I like the backstory a lot and it could help advertise the mod better than generic names.

However, the accessibility is a very good point. I have been playing FFH since FFH1 and I still don't have intuitive orientation in magic spheres (especially in supporting ones). I hope the BtS release helps, because FFH1 is a good place to begin at. Otherwise, newcomers will have to wait till Ice is out.

PS: Many FFH2 civs' names are intuitive providing you know a bit Old Norse, Hebrew, Latin, ... (a bit ironic comment)
PPS: Will there be Newcomer Feedback#2? It is an interesting point of view because most people contributing to this forum can spell the names without mistakes already

 

[Sarkyn]

Many races' names don't have English analogies and even if they do FFH2 civs can have various features according to their leaders (e.g. elves can be good or neutral).

What generic names would you make for Kuriotates, Doviello, Illians or Sheaim?

Fanatics, Rogues, Plainsfolk. Whatever appropriate title you already use in the description text for them, there'll be a word there for them.

Ironically, researching the CivPedia to find alternative names will make me so familiar with them that I won't need more familiar names anymore

PPS: Will there be Newcomer Feedback#2? It is an interesting point of view because most people contributing to this forum can spell the names without mistakes already

I will give it some thought - tomorrow I think I might tackle my impressions of the Buildings/Wonders or of the Myriad Unit Variation. They're all very good ideas and the game is very dense.

I'll try to keep my mind fresh and new when playing tonight to ensure you get the genuine impressions of a first-time player.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Ironically, researching the CivPedia to find alternative names will make me so familiar with them that I won't need more familiar names anymore

For a short phrase description of each civ, look here:
http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Civilizations

 

[Sarkyn]

PS: Many FFH2 civs' names are intuitive providing you know a bit Old Norse, Hebrew, Latin, ... (a bit ironic comment)

A point occured to me.

The race names probably ARE "plainsmen" "light elf" and "goblin" in those languages, which just goes to show my point really. Names are a description. A name is most appropriate if it both accurately describing and evokes the correct visual immediately.

I could call an elf an elf, for clarity, or I could call it whatever "elf" is in Hebrew. I'm still calling it an elf, just one is less clear.

 

[onedreamer]

The names make no difference. If the Ljosalfar would be called Light Elves a newbie would still not know which to play. Why ? Because he/she is a newbie. Part of the fun about playing new games is exactly discovering a game and its mechanics. You can't KNOW (for sure, I mean) which civ to pick if you launched FFH for the first time.
What would help a newbie choosing his first civ are more info in the selection screen, such as those in the original "Design: Civilization" thread. And maybe anticipate the strategy tips to civ selection rather than at the beginning of the game. These are the info that would help a newbie get started, IMHO.

 

[Kael]

The names make no difference. If the Ljosalfar would be called Light Elves a newbie would still not know which to play. Why ? Because he/she is a newbie. Part of the fun about playing new games is exactly discovering a game and its mechanics. You can't KNOW (for sure, I mean) which civ to pick if you launched FFH for the first time.
What would help a newbie choosing his first civ are more info in the selection screen, such as those in the original "Design: Civilization" thread. And maybe anticipate the strategy tips to civ selection rather than at the beginning of the game. These are the info that would help a newbie get started, IMHO.

Yeah. I think there are multiple types of players. And one of those types is expecting a typical tolkienesque/D&D type fantasy game. Basically Civ4 with typical fantasy names on units. Then they start reading or load it up and get confused.

Make no mistake, I have no desire to make a typical tolkienesque/D&D game. But Im open to ideas to ease those players into the fold. I actually really like your idea Onedreamer. Unfortunatly I have little control over the custom game selection interface. A mouseover popup that talked a bit about that civ/leader would be awesome. Let me think about some way to do that.

 

[EugeneStyles]

I agree that it was intimidating at first. But I don't agree that they should be changed. You may have been upset with the "sarcastic" answer of changing Axemen to "Better Warrior" and Macemen to "Best Warrior", but that's in essence what you're suggesting. Vanilla Civ has some of the same barriers, but people who want to learn can easily get into it. For younger players who don't pay attention in history, you might not know that Ghandi is Indian or expect that he might be Industrious/Creative. You may have no idea what the Viking civ is going to act like, you may not know if Napolean is aggressive or not in this version of the game, etc. Granted, FfH is harder to learn because vanilla uses the world we know and also the civs are all more-or-less the same with just a few different traits. But it's just a question of degrees.

I think most of the people here were confused at first, and slowly caught on. I know that I'm still learning plenty about this mod every time I play it, and I really enjoy that. Just saw the Loki hero for the first time today, and boy is he annoying - I love it. Considering that the FfH team isn't trying to sell the mod to anyone, these barriers to entry aren't such a big deal, and there remains the fact that this mod *is* very popular despite being wholly alien to most people who first start playing it. Really, it's part of the charm.

My only complaint, and it's more an observation than a complaint, is that sometimes the names don't seem entirely appropriate for what they describe, at least from my point of view (I'm sure they seem plenty appropriate to the designers and probably many other people). Frex, Ljolsalfar sounds more like a Norse or Dwarven race to me than elves. I'm not sure what Malakim sounds like, but I wouldn't expect Good, desert wanderers. And Calabim sounds like some sort of humans to me, not vampires. But those are minor things. Would I mind if the Ljolsalfar were renamed to something like "Sylvanen" or "Elanil" or something that I personally would relate to elves? No. But "Wood Elves"? That, I don't like. It's generic and it robs FfH of some of its charm.

 

[BeefontheBone]

Perhaps it comes from having played since the first version of FfH 2, but I'm pretty at home with these guys now, and there's enough documentation to get a handle on it in shortish order, I'd say. The improved documentation in-game that'll come nearer to completion of the project will probably improve matters, but the wiki's not a bad resource in the meantime. Calabim sounds like Caliban to me - more of a Lanun type

You may have been upset with the "sarcastic" answer of changing Axemen to "Better Warrior" and Macemen to "Best Warrior", but that's in essence what you're suggesting.

Not at all - the real-life background to all the units in Civ 4 makes their rough utility fairly clear at first glance, which isn't true here, but I don't think it's a big issue. It can be a little tricky remembering which units ARE actually unique (in the sense of having different abilities rather than just names), but I'm expecting that to be reduced somewhat on release of BtS, since it'll allow art substitution (and possibly even names, which would be even more handy) without having a whole new unit entry. If Kael didn't directly ask for that, they must've had FfH in mind.

 

[felwar]

This would, in essence, be dumbing down the game and removing the flavor. You're asking for a generic fantasy mod, and that is not what this is. Kael and company are very clearly creating a specific universe.

Any mod has a learning curve, and the more flavor it has, the steeper that curve tends to be. Even the simplest mod usually has me searching through the pedia entries and studying the tech tree for a while.

Edit:

Frex, Ljolsalfar sounds more like a Norse or Dwarven race to me than elves.

Actually Ljolsalfar IS the norse word for "light elf".

 

[pamme]

sorry, didn't read through all the posts so don't know if someone suggested this but, how about a tutorial scenario? mostly to introduce the basics like spell casting, the AC, alignment, religion differences from vanilla, etc... playing FfH is pretty much like playing a whole new game, so a tutorial seems like it would be handy.

personally i think the civ4 civilopedia needs some fixing. the load times to access the pedia take wayyy too long, especially if you're just looking to pop in and out to refresh yourself on a certain detail. I can understand why the OP didn't want to keep looking up the pedia to find out certain things. I suppose there isn't much modders can do in this area though. or is there? i remember seeing some pedia mods awhile ago...did any of them do anything about the load time?

i myself just use the wiki. play civ4 in windowed mode and have a browser window open to the wiki. much faster than using the pedia.

EDIT: oh yeah..forgot to say. i don't think changing the names of existing races is such a good idea. one of the big draws of FfH, at least for me, was the whole new fantasy universe, and the unique names of races and their history or backstory is something I like exploring and discovering. generic names and generic civs would just kill the flavor of FfH.
However, adding small descriptions of each civ to the civ selection screen might help (is this done already? sorry, can't remember). I remember hearing about elves and wanting to play them but had no idea which civ was actually and evlen one. maybe something along the lines of: Calabim - "Vampires" Sheaim - "Arcane world destroyers" Ljosalfar - "Tree hugging elves"

 

[Grey Fox]

I must chime in again here and say that I love the names of the civs, and the leaders too. They have grown on me, and more and more as I learn more about the lore behind them.

Kael, and now with his team fleshing it out, has created a very interesting world, I can't see why anyone would want to simplify it.

And I find Ljosalfar and Svartalfar perfect names for their races.

Light
[Origin: bef. 900; (n. and adj.) ME; OE léoht; c. OS lioht, OFris liacht, D, G licht, Goth liuhath (n.); akin to ON ljōs (n.), ljōss (adj.), L lūx (n.), Gk leukós bright, white; (v.) ME lighten, OE līhtan, c. OS liuhtian, OHG liuhten (G leuchten), Goth liuhtjan]

In modern swedish, Light is Ljus.
In modern swedish, Svart means Black.
In modern swedish, Alver = Elves, in old norse it was álfar. The word is related to Fairy, which is älva in swedish

And I like the name Calabim, and they ARE human. Just that they have learned how to feed on the souls of dying people, prolonging their life. Through magic, and their bloodsucking ritual. The name Calabim really feels like the name of a Lawful Evil civ to me. As I see them, they want to dominate and enslave the world not destroy it. And they rule with Lords and strict Laws.