[BTS] News: BOTM 268 - Victoria, Prince - Starts 15 Feb

DynamicSpirit

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BOTM 268: Victoria of England.



Her Majesty Queen Victoria first ascended the British throne in 1837 - at a time when much transportaion in the UK was by canal, following the 'canalmania' period when a network of canals had been built criss-crossing the country. This game is your chance to re-enact that period. With a few minor differences - like that you're playing Civ, not actually being present at the industrial revolution, and your opponents are probably not going to be the same people Her Majesty faced in real life. But I think you'll definitely notice all the canals on this map. Unfortunately, unlike in real life, Civ provides no mechanism to build bridges across them - guess you'll just have to use boats! Just be thankful that Civ also provides no mechanism to stick locks on the canals...

You also have a bit of extra time to play, in recognition that there are a couple of other games you might still be playing.

Game settings:
Playing as: Victoria of England
Rivals: 6 AIs
Difficulty: Prince
Starting Era:
Ancient
Speed: Normal
Options: No goody huts (Note that this means Random events are on)
Victory Conditions: All enabled

Map settings:
Map: Canals
World Wrap: Cylindrical
Mapsize: Standard
Climate: Temperate
Sea level: Medium
Map latitudes: -90°S to 90°N


Victoria is Imperialistic and Financial, and you start with Fishing and Mining.

The Imperialistic trait gives +100% great general emergence and +50% production of settlers

The Financial trait gives +1 commerce on any plot that already has at least 2 commerce

Unique unit: Redcoat (replaces Rifleman)
Where the rifleman has +25% strength against mounted units, the redcoat has +25% against both mounted and gunpowder units.

Unique Building: Stock Exchange (replaces Bank)
The stock exchange gives an amazing +65% gold in the city it's built in, as opposed to +50% for the bank.

Starting screenshot

This is the start of the game (click for a bigger image):




Challenger Class Equalizers:
You play on Emperor level, but the AI still has prince level starting units. But there's one thing that might make you prefer challenger: Unlike the contender save, random events have been switched off - since it seems a bit unfair to leave them on for higher difficulty games.

To Enter the Competition:

This competition will open at 00:01 am on 15 Feb 2024, server local time (UTC-6:00). From that date and time, you'll be able to get your chosen starting save >>>here<<<.

Submit the save after your victory (or defeat) here, by 1 Apr 2024.

Here is a link to a list of the differences between Vanilla, Warlords and BtS.

Software Versions

Windows: This game MUST be played in Beyond the Sword (NOT Civ4 Vanilla or Warlords), patched to version 3.19, and with the BUFFY mod version 3.19.005 installed. You can download the BUFFY mod here. Players using Windows Vista or Windows 7 are encouraged to read the notes on Vista fixes here.


Macintosh: This game MUST be played in Beyond the Sword (NOT Civ4 Vanilla or Warlords), patched to version 3.19, and with the Mac BUFFY mod version 3.19.003 installed. You can download the Mac BUFFY mod here.

While playing...

Remember - for your entry to be accepted, it MUST be your first attempt to play this game, and you MUST NOT replay any turns. If you make a mistake while playing, you have to live with it, learn from it, and carry on the game without replaying.

We will open 'spoiler' threads during the month for players to discuss what happens in their games. Do not discuss any details of your game outside those threads.

@Blake00 @The_J
 
I sense that LowtherCastle is setting up a joke about dental work. Victoria seems to have wisely kept her lips sealed in her picture, thereby thwarting some of his effort. Maybe you'll have to talk about her number-one Spy (Austin Powers, of course; Yeah, baby; yeah).

Hooray for the extra-long playing time. Naval maps typically require extra time.


Map Type
I could not see a Canals Map Type in the game, nor could I see such a Map Type at:

Is it something hand-built, DynamicSpirit?


City 1 Location
My initial thought was that settling in place makes for a very strong capital. Fresh water, a lot of Food, Galleys and The Great Lighthouse being buildable from there, plenty of Flood Plains Cottages, and even some production.

On the Marble looks all right for a City-Spamming location. No hint of a Fresh Water bonus, but any orphaned seafood can probably be picked up by a City on the other side of the corresponding canal. City 2 would need to build a Galley, but if the purpose is to build City 2 quickly, that fact would be fine. We CAN get a guaranteed Food Resource with the Gold, but not at 1E of the Corn; instead, at 1NW of the Corn, again without Fresh Water access. The Wheel will need to be researched to get us Trade Routes, though.

On the PH For would give us Fresh Water and still some extra production for the City Centre square, but misses out on most of the Food. It does offer us space to settle 1E of the Corn for a guaranteed Food Resource with the Gold. It also allows for a Galley and The Great Lighthouse from our capital.

On that note, 1W Flood Plains keeps our Food and stretches our early Cultural Borders across of a canal, while also leaving open the location of settling 1E of the Corn for a guaranteed Food Resource with the Gold.

1E of the Corn is also possible, for Gold in the capital. No Fresh Water, but we still get Gold, Marble, two Flood Plains, and a capital on the water for a fast Galley to get the Gold connected quickly.

2N is also possible for Gold in the capital, plus all of the visible Food Resources, 3 Flood Plains squares, and also the ability to build a fast Galley to get the Gold connected quickly.


Techs?
Whatever we do, starting with Fishing and Mining means that Sailing for the Gold should be a high-priority tech, possibly right after Agriculture for any of those settling locations, with the exception of settling on the PH For square, which could delay Agriculture in favour of perhaps Sailing -> Bronze Working -> Agriculture.

One minor consideration with settling on the Marble is that we'd want to fit in The Wheel, perhaps right after Agriculture, since it is the only discussed settling location which would require a Road to get Trade Routes in the capital. Sailing would be a sufficient replacement for The Wheel for the other settling locations and we could even choose not to self-tech The Wheel at the other settling locations.


Warrior goes where?
1N to see if settling at 1NW of the Corn for one of our Cities might make sense.

1E to reveal the same squares as moving 1SE plus NW + N of the Corn, 2NE of the Corn, and NE + E of the Corn.

1SE does not look like it will reveal a distant Hills square and if that claim is true, than it is an inferior move compared to moving 1E.

1SW if we are at all considering the idea of the Settler moving 1W to the Flood Plains square, to see if we might earn any additional seafood or land Resources by settling 1W.


Connecting the Gold Resource
Assuming that the Gold Resource is on another landmass, we will eventually need a Road from that Gold Resource to one of:
One of our Cities on that landmass
One of the AI's Cities on that landmass
A Fort on that landmass

Thus, we probably should not rely on getting that +1 Happiness for a while.


Strategy
Probably aim to build The Great Lighthouse no matter what you have as a chosen Victory Condition. These canals are probably going to mean that most Cities will be Coastal.

It would be wise to get Metal Casting at some point, too, with an effort to secure Copper before then, for The Colossus.

With the Financial Trait and those 2 Wonders, any Victory Condition should be readily achievable.

With so many canals, one consideration will be what to do regarding Colonies. Perhaps make some? Perhaps have the AIs make some Colonies to weaken the AIs or even to have a comfortable chance to play around with learning how to increase the Domination Land Limit, as per the BOTM 263 Final Spoiler (I'm not linking to it since the Results have yet to be published)? Maybe just be very careful to settle only 2 or 3 good Cities on each landmass which does not contain our Palace, to avoid high Colony Maintenance Costs?



Challenger
We possibly saw the same discussion about Challenger where someone suggested turning off Events in one of the threads that I quoted when talking about the No Espionage option for BOTM 266:

My personal opinion, and I'm one of the players who regularly takes the Challenger saved game, is that I like the idea of making the game harder, but I also like having a map that is pretty similar to what other players are playing.

Sure, let's go ahead with an experiment of leaving Events on for Contender and turning them off for Challenger, but in the future, I think that I would vote for keeping the Events option consistent across of these saved-game choices.

I could end up with a minor advantage by being able to Whip while not having to keep my Cities at Size 3 or smaller. I would not have to worry about triggering the dreaded Slave Revolt Event.

In general, though, my thinking is that I'd miss out on the fun that Events provide, which we often already don't see in the higher-difficulty games.
 
Is it something hand-built, DynamicSpirit?

Sorry I missed this long post so didn't reply for ages. That's for you to find out as you're playing :) Though possibly you have already played far enough to have an idea about the map.

Challenger
We possibly saw the same discussion about Challenger where someone suggested turning off Events in one of the threads that I quoted when talking about the No Espionage option for BOTM 266:

My personal opinion, and I'm one of the players who regularly takes the Challenger saved game, is that I like the idea of making the game harder, but I also like having a map that is pretty similar to what other players are playing.

Sure, let's go ahead with an experiment of leaving Events on for Contender and turning them off for Challenger, but in the future, I think that I would vote for keeping the Events option consistent across of these saved-game choices.

I could end up with a minor advantage by being able to Whip while not having to keep my Cities at Size 3 or smaller. I would not have to worry about triggering the dreaded Slave Revolt Event.

In general, though, my thinking is that I'd miss out on the fun that Events provide, which we often already don't see in the higher-difficulty games.

Yeah, I recall having discussions about events a few years ago. The consensus then seemed to be that most experience players who like difficult games also dislike events. Plus if the game is already difficult to win, then an unlucky event is more likely to be game-changing. For that reason I tended to switch events on only in the easier games in the maps I make - which you've obviously noticed :) It's kinda similar to the reasoning where we don't often do games with goody huts around - because with goody huts, random luck can be game-changing. But if there's a desire for hard games with random events (and it sounds like there is, at least from you ;) ) then I can certainly try to accommodate that.
 
Imo, random events are not nearly as bad as people make them out to be. The problem for those people is, they either don’t realize that many of the bad ones can be lessened or nullified if you have enough cash on hand or they simply don’t store the money required.

Goody Hutts at the beginning, are indisputably game, breaking for the lucky ones who pop mining so that they can mine the nearby gems, and completely change their game, as in SG2.
 
Only random event that I find game ruining is the barb horse archer stack, much worse than slave revolt, but I rarely play with them so I might not have seen much.
 
Not primarily related to that game, but I was curious, does Espionage victory counts as Cultural for the BOTM awards purpose? I see religious is split for the awards but not espionage.
 
Not primarily related to that game, but I was curious, does Espionage victory counts as Cultural for the BOTM awards purpose? I see religious is split for the awards but not espionage.

Yes, it counts as cultural - which is what it is as far as the game is concerned. There was a short period after it was first discovered that you could get a quicker cultural victory by using a lot of espionage when we attempted to distinguish straight cultural from espionage-cultural, but we fairly quickly abandoned that because (a) it was quite a subjective decision, not really something that was amenable to the kind of hard rule that we could code into our software (How much espionage is sufficient to class it an espionage-cultural win?), and (b) it quickly became apparent that basically no-one was submitting espionage-cultural victories anyway :)

Religious is split off from diplomatic, even though the game counts it as diplomatic because (a) The difference is very clear-cut and not subjective: Our game analysis software can easily tell whether you got your diplo win from the Apostolic Palace or the United Nations, and (b) you can get a religious win so much more quickly than a diplo win that if we didn't split it off, it would basically become pointless anyone trying to use the UN to get a fastest diplo win, so we'd lose an entire game strategy from the competition.
 
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Yes, I'd be fine with Events being on in Challenger games when said Events are on in Non-Challenger games.

I'd also be fine with a general heuristic of not having Events (and Huts) enabled for the Higher-Difficulty "stream" of games (Emperor through Deity as the Contender Class). Although, with any heuristic, it's just a general approach that can be altered, to keep things different and spicy.


Regarding Espionage Cultural Victories, the Hall of Fame does differentiate them. You can certainly get a very rough feel for how they compare to Traditional Cultural Victories based on the results posted there, but there are some important points to keep in mind.


One is that there have been less players overall in the years since the Espionage Cultural Victories were introduced, and many of the corresponding #1 records were only ever attempted by one player. Contrast that fact with many players having played for many of the Traditional Cultural Victory slots, and it's often not a strong comparison to look at the fastest dates for the two types across of a given slot (where Difficulty Level + Map Size + Game Speed represents a slot) and draw too many useful conclusions.


For example, I have a couple of Deity Espionage Cultural Victories, but the truth is that I was trying to beat the #1 records for the corresponding Traditional Cultural Victory slots, realised that would not beat the corresponding #1 Traditional Cultural game, and just gave away a Legendary-To-Be City to an AI for a few turns to dump all of my Espionage Points into Culture Spread Espionage Missions, recaptured the City, and then finished off my game for a #1 record in the Espionage Cultural Victory slot. Since no one has bothered to compete with this #1 slot, I only tentatively hold it until someone takes the time to seriously attempt to challenge it.


Meanwhile, there are games where the player obviously started off with Espionage Cultural Victory in mind. One noteworthy game is @Kaitzilla's Deity Standard Marathon 1300 BC Espionage Cultural Victory. Only one other player competed for this slot, but it certainly demonstrates the power of an Espionage Cultural Victory under the right circumstances (Incan Quechuas).

Contrast that date with @Seraiel's Deity Standard Marathon 1255 AD Traditional Cultural Victory (not as the Incans), which was hard-won and tenaciously fought for over the years, with 8 competing games for the same slot that all had great results (1580 AD or earlier).


The BUFFY definition of there being at least one Spread Culture Espionage Mission (used in any City, even not a Legendary City) seems to have been validly accepted by the Hall of Fame community as a reasonable compromise for differentiating the two types of Cultural Victories.

In practice, not being able to use a Spread Culture Espionage Mission in any City doesn't really limit one in a Traditional Cultural Victory game, since the goal is not about taking a lot of territory or stealing many AI Cities, and the passive Culture already helps in these regards, anyway.


After a lot of discussion in the XOTM community, the end result was the stated consensus in the XOTM community to differentiate the two Cultural Victory types.

However, in practice, Map Makers just kept saying that the awarding of Awards would treat the two types as being the same, and we kind of just essentially brushed the agreed-upon decision of the XOTM community under the rug through this approach. This comment is not a blame and is not a criticism, but just represents the outcome of small decisions that were made over time.


In the end, it probably worked out for the best to just lump together the two types of Cultural Victories for XOTM, because the reality is that we just don't have a lot of players, and any form of Cultural Victory is often not chased after by a majority of players, and usually not even by more than a few players in a given game. (Meanwhile, this thinking is different for Hall of Fame, as any player at any time can post a game for a given slot, and Hall of Fame really does focus on the best-of-the-best results throughout time, thus we are only really limited on time and interest by players competing for a given slot.)

If someone has a good game, it's probably, in general, more due to other factors, such as making a lot of good decisions and receiving some good-luck results that would make any Victory Condition come out faster. If you have a great early game, you can often choose whether to make it Domination, (United Nations) Diplomatic, Space, or (Espionage or Traditional) Cultural, without too much effort.


There can be games where the difference matters, but does the difference matter for the wrong reasons?

For example, there was a Greek game where we were on the same continent as China, which I did not get time to finish, but where I was going for a relatively early Espionage Cultural Victory (pre-1000-AD). The reality is that I was successful in early warring and tech trading and could have had a great result with most of the Victory Condition types. Most of the players struggled with beating China in that game, but I'd sacrificed a fast buildup for an aggressive REX phase with later backfilling of Cities, and I ended up denying my AI opponent some key Resources, making for a strong, early conquest of that player, and setting up a good early empire to pull off a an early Espionage Cultural Victory, including having captured some Courthouses.

Had I had time to finish that game, the Victory date would have blown away those playing for a Traditional Cultural Victory by players who had not had a good early warring result. It wasn't the type of Cultural Victory condition that was at play in determining why I would have finished centuries ahead of the competition, but instead, early-game decisions and early-game luck, such as inadvertently denying Iron to my AI opponent by wanting to claim some other Food Resources, such that an Iron which was 3 squares away from one of my settled blocking Cities ended up being too close to my empire for the AI to lay claim to it, while it appeared to have been claimed by that same AI opponent in other players' games.


Also, there is the fact that while a large empire can help for an Espionage Cultural Victory, it can also be key for a Sid's Sushi Cultural Victory. I believe that a strong case could be made for a Sid's Sushi Cultural Victory being played very differently from a Traditional Cultural Victory.

Perhaps, however, simply the fact that Sid's Sushi tends to come relatively late in the game, often making it hard to get an extremely earlier result than a Traditional Cultural Victory, was seen in enough players' minds as being a reason not to treat a Sid's Sushi Cultural Victory any differently in the XOTM (and Hall of Fame) Awards tables from a Traditional Cultural Victory.

In my mind, though, what we "knew" as a Traditional Cultural Victory from our War Academy and the Strategy forum, with the roughly 9 Cities, Cottages in 2 or 3 Cities, and Great Artist Culture Bombs, is significantly different from how a Sid's Sushi Cultural Victory gets played. But, we don't make this differentiation or distinction in XOTM or in Hall of Fame.


I think that for a SGOTM game, if we ever have enough players and a Map Maker to run another one, it is important to at least discuss the difference and clarify up-front whether an Espionage Cultural Victory will be treated equally with a Traditional Cultural Victory, purely for the sake of all of the teams keeping an Espionage Cultural Victory in mind so that there wouldn't be any complaints after the game was over about one team winning that way while another team thought that the Victory type wasn't allowed.


But, given that we didn't go to the trouble of creating another XOTM Award category for Espionage Cultural Victory, it's probably reasonable to say that it's "too late" to entertain the idea of separating the types of Cultural Victories for XOTM and we can safely just proceed forward with the fact that information about how to play these 3 vastly different styles of Cultural Victories is open knowledge which any player can research and can use to play a competitive XOTM game, leaving it up to the individual player to assess which way to play, be it the method of play that seems to be the most efficient or be it the method of play that seems to be the most enjoyable, based upon how the player decides to play their game.
 
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