News: COTM49 Pre-Game Discussion

[civ_steve]

COTM 49: Celts!

As our quarterly "special" game, we'll ramp the difficulty up to Deity, and play as the Celts! To spice the game up a bit, the Celts GS unit will have a bombard ability added to it. And you might find that some of the other UU's also have bombard added to them . You will have an extra week to submit. Here's the info:

Civilization: Celts
Rivals: 7 pre-selected
Barbarians: Roaming
Difficulty: Deity
Land Form: Pangaea, 70% ocean, Standard map.
Geology:4 billion years old, Normal and Warm.
AI Aggression: Normal

Conquest-Class Bonuses:

1. 
   3 Bonus Spearmen
   Alphabet for Free
   100 Bonus Gold
   GS gets a bombard rating of 3-1-2

Open-Class Bonuses
GS gets a bombard rating of 3-1-1

Predator-Class Obstacles:

1. 
   No Ceremonial Burial
   GS gets a bombard rating of 2-0-1
   AI Bonus Unit Support per city upped to 5

Updated for final Bonuses/Obstacles

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

Mmm, this looks like a treat. After a few early warriors to explore, I'll probably chop the game forest for an early granary. I'll head straight for philosophy and wouldn't mind getting the monarchy slingshot in this one. I'm sort of relieved predator GS's won't have bombard. What's that in the fog 1S-1SW?

 

[Spoonwood]

Special game? I feel at a loss. You did mean offensive bombard like an artillery unit, as opposed to defensive bombard like a musketeer, correct? This looks tough as nails to me... even if you guys have hidden more food closeby. I could only keeping up in tech through some lucky war action, or more likely through some Great Library tricks.

 

[Chamnix]

Agricultural tribe, great UU, 4-turn settler factory to start - nothing to be scared of here . The way to keep up in tech is to research techs the AI usually avoids and trade, trade, trade. Maybe start a few phony wars on the distant part of the pangaea . The full Republic slingshot is probably impossible, but I think we could have a decent chance of getting Philosophy first and picking up a reasonably expensive tech.

 

[Spoonwood]

I've had some unsuccessful attempts at getting philosophy first on HUGE pangea deity-level maps. In one game I played today, two AIs got philosophy on the same turn I did. Maybe there lies 2 extra despotism food nearby... maybe not.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I think a lot of it has to do with:

1) Being able to get a settler factory up and running.
2) Getting MP's, to reduce your need of the lux tax.
3) Getting a lux, for the same reason.
4) Being able to trade for alphabet or having no civs that start with alphabet
5) Not having civs that beeline writing. Byzantium is a bad opponent in that way, as are the Aztecs, I've noticed.

If you can get writing first, you have a good chance at a slingshot, because the AI will usually go MM first - but they might go philo, too.

 

[MarleysGh0st]

Deity, huh?

Okay, I took the challenge of playing COTM 48 in the Open Class and was outmatched by the AI, so I won't be too proud to take the Conquest-Class bonuses in this one.

And maybe I can get that settler factory working, this time...

 

[Othniel]

I've been playing a number of Deity games recently with similar settings (standard size, Pangea, no Alpha at start). I've been pretty successful at getting to Philo first by doing a min run on Alpha, max run on Writing and then max run to Philo. If I can trade tech to get Alpha, I definitely do so, but paying gpt for Alpha usually means I don't have enough gold for the max runs to follow. On the other hand, if some AI gets Writing only, say, 5-8, turns ahead of you, buying the tech can payoff. Usually you can trade Writing around and collect enough gold for a max run at Philo. Not trading Writing around, once you get it, to prevent AIs from researching Philo doesn't usually work on Deity. Just cross your fingers and toes that they don't go for Philo; it seems pretty random.

If I do get Philo first, I'll probably do the Monarchy sling. Normally I would get a different tech for free and stay Despotic until I can reseach Republic, but we are religious. So being a Monarch for 30-40 turns while researching Republic would probably pay off.

With the river and the 4-turner, our research should be pretty good so I'm hopeful. This should be a really fun game.

 

[Spoonwood]

Oh... that's game... I've seen how that gives bonuses when you chop the jungle or forest, but never payed that close attention, and I certainly never used it towards a settler factory. You can chope the forest and you get a three food square from the game. Then you can irrigate that grassland-game square and there your two extra food for the Celts, right (or did I get the despotism penalty wrong?)? It looks Chamnix got it right. O.K... this looks a little better now.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

That is correct - the game gives you the 5 food. And there are two BG's to mine, as well, to give you the extra shield you need (2 BG, city, 1 regular mine, 1 irri deer gives you 6 at size 4 and 7 at size 5.

That's assuming that that's the only extra food, of course.

I'll settle in place, move to the deer and start chopping - warrior/warrior/worker/granary. The chop should finish in time to give me the 2nd warrior right after the first.

Unless something else shows up to change my mind on settling, of course.

 

[axehaxe]

This looks like a very exciting game to me. I am relieved to take a break from Deity Arch AI where you can't even attack most of the AI until after the middle ages! (Even though I did certainly win the last game) Pangea Deity is like demigod Arch or even emperor Arch to me in difficulty. I'll probably take this Open or Predator class...

 

[Schalke 04]

Pangea Deity is like demigod Arch or even emperor Arch to me in difficulty. I'll probably take this Open or Predator class...

Really!?

For me demigod arch is like emperor pangea to me, and pangea diety will be like beyond SID arch for me... Actually I don't know how to play deity on a pangea map, as i am surrounded by DEADLY enemies.

I was really looking forward to participate in this COTM. I could not play the last four ones as I am at a study abroad semester in Australia and it took all of my time for studying and travelling. Now the semester has ended and I really wanted to hav a CIV game again. However, I don't know if i should dare to start this one...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I really wouldn't worry about trying this game - if you aren't comfortable on deity, try it with the conquest class. The extra spearman will help keep away the (not terribly bad) barbarians, you'll start with alphabet and can go for mysticism or writing right off, and you can make that a 4-turn settler factory.

Maybe you lose, but it's fun to try, anyway

 

[Lanzelot]

I'm looking forward to this game, because I already enjoyed COTM48 very much (even though I was close to resigning at four different points and only hung on by the bare fingernails...) These are the kind of tough uphill struggles I like.

Is there a difference between PTW Deity and C3C Deity? Because the two Deity games I played so far (GOTM71 and GOTM77) both felt much easier than the Demigod COTM48...!

GOTM71 has been Pangea as well, and here it was essential to keep good relations with n-1 neighbors and take out each one separately (using intelligent military alliances). If you get on the wrong side of a dogpile, it's "game over" quickly... I agree with Schalke here.

Lanzelot

 

[axehaxe]

Originally Posted By Schalke 04

Really!?

For me demigod arch is like emperor pangea to me, and pangea diety will be like beyond SID arch for me... Actually I don't know how to play deity on a pangea map, as i am surrounded by DEADLY enemies.

I was really looking forward to participate in this COTM. I could not play the last four ones as I am at a study abroad semester in Australia and it took all of my time for studying and travelling. Now the semester has ended and I really wanted to hav a CIV game again. However, I don't know if i should dare to start this one...

You should definetly start it. Pangea is not half as bad as Arch because the AI is constantly at war, border very close to one another, and kill each other throughout the game. This makes the military burden much lighter for you and if you save up enough troops you can do quite a bit of damage. Behind in tech might be a problem though since all the AI are so close together they tech trade more that if you fall behind, you'll likely find yourself doing some pointy stick research. It's really a trade off between military and tech. I think I will go for complete conquest this game using hordes of obsolete troops if necessary!

 

[eldar]

I have to disagree - on Archi maps, the AI will be very bad at building curraghs, making suicide, runs, and getting to know people. The human player will generally be at a huge advantage in this capacity and can use their greater contacts to enormous effect in tech trading, alliances, and so on. Even if they are dog-piled, the human player will most likely still be able to concentrate on a single AI because AI naval invasion tend to be patchy and easily dealt with, even at Deity. And their status as the world's tech-broker will mean they're not too far behind, meaning point-stick research/GLib elevator come into play far easier than they would do on any other map type.

On a pangaea, the AI will know each other fast and will trade tech like there's no tomorrow, leaving the human in a potential hole that is very tricky to get out of. Oh, and they'll all start picking on the weakest guy out there. No prizes for guessing who that is. It's never happened to me (I avoid Deity by and large...) but I'm guessing a dogpile by 7 AIs ain't much fun.

 

[Lanzelot]

I think eldar described it very well. Another point: the AIs will come and demand tribute quite often. On Archipelago you just show them the finger and then enjoy the war happiness -- they will perhaps send one galley and land a horseman and an archer on your island... But don't try and do that on Pangea...!

In GOTM71 I paid lots and lots of tribute early on until my military was finally strong enough to risk a war with one AI. Then the strategy was something like this: let's assume civ A has just demanded tribute and then declared on you, after you have refused to pay. Immediately buy a MA with the two next neighbours. This will prevent that they join forces with A and dogpile on you. Wait a couple of turns, until they have beaten up A a bit, and then send in your own forces and try to pick up one or two of A's cities. This is probably all you can expect from the first war. But after this war, A will now be the weakest one, so the other AIs will start picking on him. Spent some time consolidating and rebuilding your military and wait untill A gets attacked again by someone. Then join the dog pile and try to finish off A.

Another helpful thing is: in GOTM71 we had been located in a remote corner of the pangea with only two direct neighbours. If you are located in the middle of the pangea with direct borders to 5 AIs, it might be a nightmare...
Fortunately the screenshot above looks like Celtia is located in a corner as well!

Another thought I just had: is the Gallic Swordsman really a good UU on Deity level? I think not! Here is my reasoning:

1. If you want to take advantage of it, you have to use it early, because if you wait too long, the AIs will have Pikes, and then it's no longer fun.
2. This means you'll get an early Golden Age, probably at a time, when your core(s) are not yet completely setup! But I usually want my GA when it is the most effective, usually in the early middle age.
3. On lower difficulty levels you can wait with your GS attack until the early middle age, and most AIs will still only have Spears, and then the Gallic Swordsman is perfect: capturing a lot of territory and triggering a well-timed GA!

Lanzelot

 

[axehaxe]

What are you guys disagreeing about? I said exactly that the AI on pangea most certainly does end up trading faster in tech. I also said on Arch the AI most certainly does fall behind in tech since they never do suicide curraghs.
Now the military issue is quite different is what I was saying:

On Pangea, the AI is wasting units killing each other while you save up. On Arch, the AI is saving up units while you are saving up units too.

In the end who's easier to fight, a militarily depleted AI or an island filled with enemy units that never went anywhere since 4000 B.C?


Oh and by the way the last thing mentioned about early golden ages is absolutely true and I agree...I absolutely hate early GA's. Yuck! I am unlikely to use the Gallic Swordsmen as real attack units here if ever. With their bombard capability, they are pretty much a medieval version of the radar artillery you get in the modern age.

 

[Honda[SU]]

Good place for capital, the very good early UU.
I think, that it will be excellent fight.
I think, that there are four variants for a science:
1. If contenders are more close than 12-15 cells there will be an early war and it is necessary to study Iron more likely.
2. If contenders far and nobody will know the Alphabet on start it is necessary to study the Alphabet and Writing. If to learn Writing by the first it is possible to go safely to free-of-charge Republic. If is not present, Philosophy and the Monarchy. Polytheism by then already learns somebody.
3. If the Alphabet is known on start it is necessary to study Mysticism. To exchange Mysticism for the Alphabet and something. And then to study Writing.
4. If one of contenders will be for example Byzantium and/or Aztecs it is possible to forget even about Philosophy. They will be there most likely earlier. What variants are? Polytheism road and it is loved with computers, HR very much love computers, IW everyone will already know. It is possible to try to study after Mysticism the first Mathematics.

 

[Lanzelot]

What are you guys disagreeing about?

Yes, you said many valid points. The only point I disagree with is that Pangea is easier for the human player than Archipelago. In my opinion (and from the experience of the games I played so far) Archipelago is better for the human player.

On Pangea, the AI is wasting units killing each other while you save up. On Arch, the AI is saving up units while you are saving up units too.

In the end who's easier to fight, a militarily depleted AI or an island filled with enemy units that never went anywhere since 4000 B.C?

This maybe correct. However, I think it will apply only on some occasions, i.e if all the AIs are well-balanced and their fighting always leads to a stalemate. But in the majority of cases the game on Pangea will go like this: if there are 7 opponents, then two of them will get beaten up over time, two others (the ones who take the best advantage of the two loosers) will grow into superpowers, and the remaining three will stay approximately at their original strength. Only the two loosers will be "militarily depleted". The three middle-class AIs will still be reasonably strong and the two superpowers will be almost impossible to beat.
In my opinion fighting such a superpower is much much more difficult than a naval invasion of an island, where are relatively small AI has been saving units since 4000BC! Simply because the units of the superpower can easily get into your core and cause a lot of damage, while the units of the island AI never reach you.

There are three more reasons why in my opinion Pangea is more difficult:

• Faster expansion: in the early stages the AI is superior to you in terms of fast expansion. It starts with an extra settler and extra workers. On Pangea it can rapidly settle a large part of territory, while you need some time before your settler factory is ready. On Archipelago the AI will quickly fill its island, but then the expansion will stop until they can build galleys. So you can undisturbedly fill your island as well. And even after the AI sends settlers overseas, it's not a real threat, because those towns, which are not on the AI's home-island, are usually weakly defended and can easily be taken.
• When invading an island, you can immediately attack and destroy one of the AIs productive core-cities. But on Pangea you first have to get through the outer ring of unproductive corrupted cities, and taking those doesn't hurt the AI much. Or you have to use a ROP rape, but that will lead to everyone hating you sooner or later...
• On Pangea you have to fight with/defend against anyone who attacks you. On Archipelago you can simply ignore it, if someone declares war on you... Basically you are free to decide yourself against whom and at which point of time you want to fight a serious war.

Well, I hope my thoughts make some sense? But now enough of theory, it's time to start the game...

Best Regards, Lanzelot