News: Game of the month for Civ V - feedback appreciated

[Ribannah]

Overflow represents finishing a job before the end of the year, and starting the groundwork on the next one right away.

It would be an exploit if it would e.g. double your production by mistake, but it doesn't. You get the hammers you produced and not a single one more.

 

[Maxym]

- participants, who used to play the game honorably, start copying these players' style, just so they have a chance to compete.

This is what is currently happening.
And it takes only one such player and an unresponsive staff.
If there were a Realms Beyond competition for Civ5, I would play there. Unfortunately, there isn't. But I am leaving this competition nonetheless.

I don't think it is entirely correct that we are collectively adopting the same play style. I for one have not, and as far as I can see others have not either. I still enjoy the games and competition and just don't compare my results to the ones I know are obtained by following a different set of rules.

I would regret seeing less participation from you or Dave as I find your approaches to the game creative and enlightening if not articularly easy to adopt

I think people still recognize and emulate players with most creative/ detailed write-ups even if that is not what is being rewarded.

 

[Moriarte]

Mistake does not fully define exploit. Exploiting - is having knowledge and using a combination of tools available to you to achieve better than average results. If there is a weakness in design, which allows you to slingshot way ahead of the AI (hammer overflow, breaking deals because you suddenly decide it is honorable to go to war, knowledge of certain AI tech paths, knowledge of AI flavors, demographics figures available from start of the game, stealing techs you don't honorably deserve) you are in a position to exploit situation to your own favor. And since developers put all these things inside CiV, we are free to use these tools in GOTM (apart from obvious cheating, like reloads). So, you complaining that we are dishonorable really means you expected creators to be more honorable (by your standards).

 

[DaviddesJ]

A competition requires a standardized set of rules. Someone has to decide what is "allowed" and "not allowed". There is a logical preference to play the game however it was designed, but sometimes designers make mistakes or oversights (Firaxis certainly has), and sometimes their goals are not consistent with a competition (they aren't primarily concerned with communities like CFC, and over time they have gotten less concerned about people like us). One of the downsides of the overemphasis on enforcement has been a reluctance to make rules that cannot necessarily be enforced. But, still, some such rules are important. A rule that says, "you cannot overflow hammers from one project to the next", would be unworkable, because it's impossible to comply with even if you wanted to. But some rules make sense, are easy to apply in practice, and would benefit the competition. GOTM has always, over the years, benefited from having clear statements about what is and is not allowed.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Overflow represents finishing a job before the end of the year, and starting the groundwork on the next one right away.

It would be an exploit if it would e.g. double your production by mistake, but it doesn't. You get the hammers you produced and not a single one more.

Yeah but you know to build things you dont particularly need to maximize the Project. It doesnt follow with practical logic if you translate it to slightly realistic terms. It is easily explained as an exploit in the spirit of the game.

 

[Ribannah]

Mistake does not fully define exploit. Exploiting - is having knowledge and using a combination of tools available to you to achieve better than average results. ...

The verb 'to exploit' is not equivalent to the noun 'exploit'. You can indeed exploit an advantage like better knowledge. But that's not what we're talking about.

 

[Ribannah]

Yeah but you know to build things you dont particularly need to maximize the Project. It doesnt follow with practical logic if you translate it to slightly realistic terms. It is easily explained as an exploit in the spirit of the game.

I'm sorry, but ... huh??

We've had versions of Civ where overflow was severely limited. Everybody found that unnatural. It also made the game very hard to play as it hopelessly increased micro-management.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

I'm sorry, but ... huh??

Really? Late game 10 or so turns from starting the Utopia Project you actually need every one of those units and buildings to maximize the overflow for other reasons? It is merely illogical to build those things in that order for any reason other than the fact that it can't be rushed by a GE. If you needed them and put them to use other than overflow I'd be fine with it but it is an exploit.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Really? Late game 10 or so turns from starting the Utopia Project you actually need every one of those units and buildings to maximize the overflow for other reasons? It is merely illogical to build those things in that order for any reason other than the fact that it can't be rushed by a GE. If you needed them and put them to use other than overflow I'd be fine with it but it is an exploit.

You haven't explained what actual proposal you would make. If you want to prohibit this, you need, at least, a simple, clear rule that states what is prohibited. If it requires more than about 10 words to state, it is too complicated.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

I don't think it is entirely correct that we are collectively adopting the same play style. I for one have not, and as far as I can see others have not either. I still enjoy the games and competition and just don't compare my results to the ones I know are obtained by following a different set of rules.

I would regret seeing less participation from you or Dave as I find your approaches to the game creative and enlightening if not particularly easy to adopt

I think people still recognize and emulate players with most creative/ detailed write-ups even if that is not what is being rewarded.

That is a recent reference to gotm46 where one of our players openly said they adopted another players questionable tactics to show how different they are. they admitted to playing previously without them while routinely finishing slower just to illustrate how powerful those tactics are. it remains unknown whether they will continue to use the tactics or just did it to show the effects.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

You haven't explained what actual proposal you would make. If you want to prohibit this, you need, at least, a simple, clear rule that states what is prohibited. If it requires more than about 10 words to state, it is too complicated.

there is no way to prevent this other than the already in-place honor system. it is a game mechanic that isnt a bug or cheat. i applaud whoever first figured out such a tactic in previous civs. it required a decent micromanagement of math to figure it out but in my opinion it goes against the spirit of the game. but also, that is my opinion. GotM isnt HoF but now that the .dll is finally out we might be able to start actually enforcing such things down the road but Im still not so sure about enforcing overflow.

 

[DaviddesJ]

there is no way to prevent this other than the already in-place honor system.

I understand that compliance with such a rule likely depends on the honor system. You still have to answer the question: what is the rule? How do you distinguish "honorable" from "dishonorable" behavior? In at most 10 words that are simple and clear enough that no one can disagree on their meaning. If you can't do that then it's not feasible.

 

[Ribannah]

Really? Late game 10 or so turns from starting the Utopia Project you actually need every one of those units and buildings to maximize the overflow for other reasons? It is merely illogical to build those things in that order for any reason other than the fact that it can't be rushed by a GE. If you needed them and put them to use other than overflow I'd be fine with it but it is an exploit.

If you finish the old build in January, why should you remain idle for the rest of the year? And why should you not be allowed to maximize preparation for an upcoming Great Project? Is there something you get that you don't deserve or that shouldn't exist (because that defines an exploit)?

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

haha, i HAVE to answer questions? seriously, get a grip. it isnt a commonly known tactic and only a few actually use it because they play at a higher level. it doesnt require a 'rule'. We only had 2 overt rules we said you can't do: Build Oxford twice and abuse the Rationalism finisher bug where you can get it multiple times. We only did that because we could actually prove it happened in game files and thus exclude submissions if we found they did it. And currently we know that the Rationalism bug has been fixed so we no longer need that rule. Otherwise they dont need to be written in stone for every know exploit. HoF has a link to a thread to describe them but they also have better means to find out if you did it with (i think) harsher penalties for doing so. And they are much longer than 10 words, haha. whatever arbitrary 10-word rule you have is silly. most civ players are quite intelligent and can handle longer responses. i assume you are similarly intelligent.

 

[DaviddesJ]

"You still have to," just means, "You haven't done this yet," not, "The world will implode if you don't." You don't have to do anything that you don't want to do.

Your response illustrates the problem with the enforcement-focused mentality. You have specified what you allow and don't allow based on your ability to detect it. But that shouldn't be the important question. The question should be, can you describe what is and isn't allowed in a way that is simple and clear and everyone knows what it is. Whether you can "catch" people and "exclude" them isn't really important at all.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

If you finish the old build in January, why should you remain idle for the rest of the year? And why should you not be allowed to maximize preparation for an upcoming Great Project? Is there something you get that you don't deserve or that shouldn't exist (because that defines an exploit)?

You dont remain idle. There are plenty of things a civilization could use but knowing that somehow a worker, longswordsman, cannon, public school, a military base, stock exchange, then Brandenburg Gate over the course of a few hundred years is somehow the most logical approach to a wonderful Utopian civilization is against the grain of the game. It has to be that precise. The other option is building Utopia in 12 turns rather than 7 or 6 or whatever the 650 overflow reduced it to. Those few hundred years still produced things the world could use, just not so inexplicably. Why didnt you already have that worker? or that public school? I guess the cannon will be nice for the fireworks when we launch the Utopian Celebration but otherwise why those in that order?

It's an exploit.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Arguing about whether something should be called an "exploit" or not, is completely pointless. It's just semantics. You could call it a "flibbertigibbet", and move on.

The question that's relevant to GOTM is, what should be allowed in GOTM?

 

[Moriarte]

The verb 'to exploit' is not equivalent to the noun 'exploit'. You can indeed exploit an advantage like better knowledge. But that's not what we're talking about.

Maybe that is not what you are talking about, but it definitely is what i am thinking the word exploit implies. I would like to ask you to refrain from hinting that poeple here are cheaters and dishonorable. That only shows your lack of politeness.

 

[Tabarnak]

As long as we can't disable ''real'' exploits it's supposed to be nothing else than a training serie.

But what is an exploit?(I don't want to start a discussion here, there is already plenty of threads talking about this. Problem is no one have really resolved this question yet)

What is the best rule that can get rid of an exploit?

It's all about deals. A deal should take 30 turns. That's it. A barb pillage your lux after 5 turns of a deal? You lose this lux for 25 turns more. You DoW an AI for all his gold? You lost your gpt, luxs and ressources sold for 30 turns. Now, every actions are penalized in function of what you demand.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

"You still have to," just means, "You haven't done this yet," not, "The world will implode if you don't." You don't have to do anything that you don't want to do.

Your response illustrates the problem with the enforcement-focused mentality. You have specified what you allow and don't allow based on your ability to detect it. But that shouldn't be the important question. The question should be, can you describe what is and isn't allowed in a way that is simple and clear and everyone knows what it is. Whether you can "catch" people and "exclude" them isn't really important at all.

I don't think it's a problem with the enforcement-focused mentality. I think it is largely YOUR problem with it. Your definitions of 'shoulds' and 'shouldnts' are largely arbitrary. You dont have to participate in public forums, submit any results, or compare/compete with anyone. It is a freely obtained save file you can play or not play provided by people not actually employed by the game. This is just our hobby. We do it as a service for those who enjoy it. Your requirements dont have to be met but the saves are still free to be used. Whatever slight or disrespect doesnt come from our not listening to you but from our not adopting all the things you want. Such is life.