News: GOTM 10 Pre-game Discussion
- Thread starter ainwood
- Start date
Absolutely not. Why should they be?
ewokimpi
A Tribal Force
Originally posted by Airny:
Do you know the feeling, if you loaded the game and you wanna move your units, but you know it will be a choice without return so you don't and quit the game again?
Yep!
Usually I open the starting position a couple of times and just stare at it.
For one thing, you can see the borders of squares much better than in the jpg.
But really, I just want to see the real position a few times before committing to play. And openning the save to look only takes a minute, whereas I'll a full hour without interuption for the initial play session.
DaviddesJ
Deity
Vynd said:
I think that's really not hard. If you're building anything at all that costs more than 44 hammers, you can just partially build it, and then leave it in the queue until you're ready to rush it.
lroumen
Warlord
Hmm.. I'm not good enough for going to war on immortal since I'm still having problems managing all my cities well enough on the slightly lower levels. I just can't get specialism to work out well enough.
I'm also certain that I cannot tech my way up to the spacerace so I won't even bother. The only two left are a diplomatic victory or a cultural victory. I think the United Nations is a challenging goal to reach research-wise, but I might attempt it anyway. The one victory left which seems doable to me is to go for culture, since you can stop research quite early and go for gold so to speak.
My first priority will be to get myself healthy so sources of fresh water for all my cities will be important until I get access to aquaducts and harbors. If possible, all my towns will be connected through the ocean and rivers to relieve the tasks of the worker and I hope that a few stray religions get sent to me that way. Meanwhile I will try to get connected with a religion via land.
Culture victory will be based on about 6 cities, but it can be more or less. At least 3 of course, and I will be building some wonders if stone or marble is available to me because I cannot ignore the marvellous trait of Qin.
I'm still uncertain which ones though. The Pyramids seems tempting but it's a wild guess and both the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus may work out greatly due to the financial feat. I guess I'll just have to see won't I?
First few steps will be obvious. Warrior to the hill to see what's available beyond. Settler 1 South East and definately settle on that spot despite the double fish. If my experience is correct, that should give me access to fresh water. I don't see the use for double fish if you cannot control your happiness and healthiness yet. I will try to avoid massive early whipping to control my happiness somewhat and save the big whip for finalising wonders. The capital looks to be a great settler farm, now only to pop out a few warriors for protection.
Teching will be almost a beeline to Drama and Music to gain the happiness of theaters in the absence of early religions. I'll pick up Bronzeworking for whipping of course and some early development techs. The AI rarely go for Drama and Music just after starting so I'll get those techs no problem. Maybe I might get to the Great Library but it's not a necessity. I'll get some stray techs through trading, hoping to find a few helpful neighbours closeby.
I will explore up-river first and see whether that brings me a second town in fresh water and I will explore southwest and southeast to find maybe a second river to road to or a nice spot on the ocean for a cheap connection with my capital. I'm also planning to get a second town to the west to connect the fish.
I think that's about it.
I'm also certain that I cannot tech my way up to the spacerace so I won't even bother. The only two left are a diplomatic victory or a cultural victory. I think the United Nations is a challenging goal to reach research-wise, but I might attempt it anyway. The one victory left which seems doable to me is to go for culture, since you can stop research quite early and go for gold so to speak.
My first priority will be to get myself healthy so sources of fresh water for all my cities will be important until I get access to aquaducts and harbors. If possible, all my towns will be connected through the ocean and rivers to relieve the tasks of the worker and I hope that a few stray religions get sent to me that way. Meanwhile I will try to get connected with a religion via land.
Culture victory will be based on about 6 cities, but it can be more or less. At least 3 of course, and I will be building some wonders if stone or marble is available to me because I cannot ignore the marvellous trait of Qin.
I'm still uncertain which ones though. The Pyramids seems tempting but it's a wild guess and both the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus may work out greatly due to the financial feat. I guess I'll just have to see won't I?
First few steps will be obvious. Warrior to the hill to see what's available beyond. Settler 1 South East and definately settle on that spot despite the double fish. If my experience is correct, that should give me access to fresh water. I don't see the use for double fish if you cannot control your happiness and healthiness yet. I will try to avoid massive early whipping to control my happiness somewhat and save the big whip for finalising wonders. The capital looks to be a great settler farm, now only to pop out a few warriors for protection.
Teching will be almost a beeline to Drama and Music to gain the happiness of theaters in the absence of early religions. I'll pick up Bronzeworking for whipping of course and some early development techs. The AI rarely go for Drama and Music just after starting so I'll get those techs no problem. Maybe I might get to the Great Library but it's not a necessity. I'll get some stray techs through trading, hoping to find a few helpful neighbours closeby.
I will explore up-river first and see whether that brings me a second town in fresh water and I will explore southwest and southeast to find maybe a second river to road to or a nice spot on the ocean for a cheap connection with my capital. I'm also planning to get a second town to the west to connect the fish.
I think that's about it.
To add another voice behind whipping... This belief many people seem to have, that whipping leads to reduced commercial output, is completely false. In any scenario where there is sufficient surplus food (at least a 4 food tile), slavery can produce a similar quantity of hammers and MORE commerce.
If we look at the scenario that DaviddesJ discussed earlier, you'll note that, through working the 2 mines, in 15 turns we produced 105 hammers and worked cottages for 30 total turns (2 cottages times 15 turns).
We could also whip for those hammers, producing 88 hammers immediately (and an additonal 15 over the next 15 turns). If our food box is sitting at 19/42 (we just grew to 4 population), it now goes down to 19/36. Working a fish and a cottage (5 food surplus) for 4 turns, we grow to 3 pop and the food box reads 21/39. We can now work 3 cottages for the remaining 11 turns waiting to whip again (ending up at 4 pop and 19/42). When we sum the number of turns spent working cottages we get 37; 7 more than we had working the mines for production. If we employed both fish tiles while growing back to 3 pop, then we'd get 39 turns working cottages. As if that weren't enough, we've had the benefit of whatever those 88 slavery hammers produced for 15 turns (if they went toward a library, there's no comparison between the two scenarios).
If we look at the scenario that DaviddesJ discussed earlier, you'll note that, through working the 2 mines, in 15 turns we produced 105 hammers and worked cottages for 30 total turns (2 cottages times 15 turns).
We could also whip for those hammers, producing 88 hammers immediately (and an additonal 15 over the next 15 turns). If our food box is sitting at 19/42 (we just grew to 4 population), it now goes down to 19/36. Working a fish and a cottage (5 food surplus) for 4 turns, we grow to 3 pop and the food box reads 21/39. We can now work 3 cottages for the remaining 11 turns waiting to whip again (ending up at 4 pop and 19/42). When we sum the number of turns spent working cottages we get 37; 7 more than we had working the mines for production. If we employed both fish tiles while growing back to 3 pop, then we'd get 39 turns working cottages. As if that weren't enough, we've had the benefit of whatever those 88 slavery hammers produced for 15 turns (if they went toward a library, there's no comparison between the two scenarios).
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
You forget the value of the surplus food in the non-whipping scenario.
And there is still the tiny annoyance that you have no granary yet.
And there is still the tiny annoyance that you have no granary yet.
DaviddesJ
Deity
malekithe said:
One of Ribannah's points was that, if she doesn't have to research Bronze Working, she can get Pottery more quickly.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,474
Here are some random thoughts that I have:
- Watch out for barbarian galleys. All this talk about fishing could easily be disrupted if a barbarian galley appears, wreaking havoc on your fishing nets. Since everyone seems to be talking about using at least 1, if not 2 fish, this point could prove important. Plus, it's just extra incentive to get early galleys, to help further your expansion. Does anyone know how early barbarian galleys can appear?
- As for those players that are going to move: well, you already have 2 health resources. Doesn't that extra health essentially make up for not being on a river? Sure, you could get both the resources' and the river's health benefits, but isn't that overkill until we get some happiness?
- We get two river-grassland tiles from our starting spot, perhaps three, although that 3rd one looks more like a plains square and I'm not positive that it's on a river. If you settle on one of those squares, such as 1 square SE of the starting spot, doesn't that mean you'll actually lose one possible cottage site, since the city's initial square won't benefit from the river's bonus commerce?
- Further, I think it would be hilarious if we got copper on the hill to the West of the capital. Chances are, you can run a worker down to the South and around to connect it. However, if you move, it will be out of your cultural borders, at least for a while. Kind of like a small punishment for not putting up with a fishy start.
- Whether you move or not, you have to give it up for ainwood. I mean, he gave people a good topic to discuss, just by making a map with a couple of options for moving or not moving. Plus, for all of you "movers", it discourages you from playing practice games. Civ 4 GOTM 9 was supposed to be my first, but I got so caught up in enjoying playing the practice games that I ran out of time to play the real one! Special thanks to BLubmuz, Civgeek, and PeteJ, the practice-map creators, for providing me with hours of entertainment!
- What a dilema. Shi Huang is my favourite Wonder-building leader. But on Immortal difficulty? Well, I figure it's worth it, at least for one of the mid-game wonders, where I'll have a better chance at a tech monopoly.
- Here's a question for ya: If you have a forge and the industrious trait, is it kind of a waste to use a Great Engineer on a wonder?
- Here's another question: How easy is it to trade for stone and marble? Copper is usually in abundance on a map, but it's difficult to find stone or marble. Also, related to that question: Will the AIs trade you a resource if they only have one of it? If not, but an AI has such a resource in their coastal city, it might be worth a military raiding party, just to improve your wonder-production abilities. Sure, the city's maintenance costs could be like 15 commerce per turn, but you could always gift it back to the civ after you've made use of the resource.
- Are people still allowed to post in this thread once they've started the game? Or am I just going to be talking to the wall at this point?
- Watch out for barbarian galleys. All this talk about fishing could easily be disrupted if a barbarian galley appears, wreaking havoc on your fishing nets. Since everyone seems to be talking about using at least 1, if not 2 fish, this point could prove important. Plus, it's just extra incentive to get early galleys, to help further your expansion. Does anyone know how early barbarian galleys can appear?
- As for those players that are going to move: well, you already have 2 health resources. Doesn't that extra health essentially make up for not being on a river? Sure, you could get both the resources' and the river's health benefits, but isn't that overkill until we get some happiness?
- We get two river-grassland tiles from our starting spot, perhaps three, although that 3rd one looks more like a plains square and I'm not positive that it's on a river. If you settle on one of those squares, such as 1 square SE of the starting spot, doesn't that mean you'll actually lose one possible cottage site, since the city's initial square won't benefit from the river's bonus commerce?
- Further, I think it would be hilarious if we got copper on the hill to the West of the capital. Chances are, you can run a worker down to the South and around to connect it. However, if you move, it will be out of your cultural borders, at least for a while. Kind of like a small punishment for not putting up with a fishy start.
- Whether you move or not, you have to give it up for ainwood. I mean, he gave people a good topic to discuss, just by making a map with a couple of options for moving or not moving. Plus, for all of you "movers", it discourages you from playing practice games. Civ 4 GOTM 9 was supposed to be my first, but I got so caught up in enjoying playing the practice games that I ran out of time to play the real one!
Special thanks to BLubmuz, Civgeek, and PeteJ, the practice-map creators, for providing me with hours of entertainment!- What a dilema. Shi Huang is my favourite Wonder-building leader. But on Immortal difficulty? Well, I figure it's worth it, at least for one of the mid-game wonders, where I'll have a better chance at a tech monopoly.
- Here's a question for ya: If you have a forge and the industrious trait, is it kind of a waste to use a Great Engineer on a wonder?
- Here's another question: How easy is it to trade for stone and marble? Copper is usually in abundance on a map, but it's difficult to find stone or marble. Also, related to that question: Will the AIs trade you a resource if they only have one of it? If not, but an AI has such a resource in their coastal city, it might be worth a military raiding party, just to improve your wonder-production abilities. Sure, the city's maintenance costs could be like 15 commerce per turn, but you could always gift it back to the civ after you've made use of the resource.
- Are people still allowed to post in this thread once they've started the game? Or am I just going to be talking to the wall at this point?
DaviddesJ
Deity
Dhoomstriker said:
Not necessarily, because sometimes you can gain by accumulating several people in your city, even if they are all unhappy. You can use them for a big pop rush. You can do this more quickly, and generate more citizens, if you have higher health, even beyond the happiness limit.
Of course, this is only useful to the extent that you have large projects to build, that require several citizens for pop rushing, which may or may not apply here (but it might conceivably be possible to pop-rush some wonders; the Industrious trait definitely helps here).
No, they aren't. So you aren't going to get many responses. I'm one of the few who hasn't started yet (probably won't until next week---I rarely find time to actually play a whole GOTM).
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,474
Airny said:
Congrats, Airny! So do you have any lessons learned that you'd like to share from your experience?
One thing that I learned by trying out an Immortal level difficulty game is that it pays to double-up your units. Where I'd normally be happy with 1 archer or 1 axeman in a forest, I found more success with putting 2. That approach helped with barbarian surprises, where not just 1 or 2 but actually 4 would come out of the fog and try and swarm me. Barbarian units seemed to come hot and heavy, almost too many for comfort.
. for one thing i dont play civ all that much though i think its fun
oh well ill do as best as i can. 
I had almost no military!
After I built my first settler, I pumped some warriors and placed them as fogbusters all over the (was alone on it) continent. So I had almost no problems with barbarians. That's what I've learned from the last GOTM, where barbs destroyed my empire quite early.
They were later sent into my cities.
But if you play aggressive, the barbs could perhaps be useful to gain exp if the enemy is not attackable yet.
Also built a workboat early to look for all the AIs ( I built it after the fogbusters). You can make peace early and get techs they possess faster.
If you are alone on a continent and wanna win peacefully, don't wait too long to take the land, else the AIs will send some settlers.
It all depends on your strategy!
After I built my first settler, I pumped some warriors and placed them as fogbusters all over the (was alone on it) continent. So I had almost no problems with barbarians. That's what I've learned from the last GOTM, where barbs destroyed my empire quite early.
They were later sent into my cities.
But if you play aggressive, the barbs could perhaps be useful to gain exp if the enemy is not attackable yet.
Also built a workboat early to look for all the AIs ( I built it after the fogbusters). You can make peace early and get techs they possess faster.
If you are alone on a continent and wanna win peacefully, don't wait too long to take the land, else the AIs will send some settlers.
It all depends on your strategy!
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
If you are building a settler or a worker you don't work the mines. You work the food tiles, for extra hammers and extra beakers per turn. (Alternatively, I work the food tiles instead of the cottages and be even quicker. More likely, my city will be larger and I can work them all.)malekithe said:
You don't have the cottages either. But if you had Pottery, while you are whipping the granary I am building a settler, or a worker to make those cottages. You will never catch up.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
Dhoomstriker said:
I've just come to this thread, was considering skipping this GOTM since I'm enjoying the current HOF gauntlet so much. But then it occurred to me that this might be a really fast game
so I'll prolly be back to the gauntlet pretty soon.Was pretty interesting reading this thread all in one sitting. I can't recall seeing quite so much debate and uncertainty from some excellent players (and welcome back Shillen). This is a very good start, it provides lots of options.
So, after reading it all I've concluded:
- I'll either settle in place, or I'll move and settle.
- I'll either whip, or I won't.
- I might research BW early, or maybe not.
- I'll either go for military or culture win, unless I decide to try diplomatic... or maybe spacerace.
- I'm thinking I will skip building archers and hope for axes, unless I decide to research archery early.
- Prolly will build some early settlers to expand, unless I decide to build boats first. Then again, maybe I'll build some fogbusters first.
OK, there you have it... off we go!
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