News: WOTM-03 Pre-Game Discussion

[Gyathaar]

WOTM 03: Celtia

[img=right]http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/wotm03civ.jpg[/img]

This game MUST be played in Warlords patch version 2.08. We will NOT accept any games played under any other patch versions, and you can't play it in vanilla (plain) Civilization4!

Further, it MUST be played using the latest version of HOF mod for Warlords.



Game settings:
Civilization: Celtia (Leader: Brennus; Traits: Spiritual & Charismatic)
Rivals: 8 (2 more than standard for map size)
Difficulty: Monarch
Map: Fractal
Mapsize: Standard, cylindrical
Climate: Rocky
Water level: Medium
Starting Era: Ancient
Speed: epic
Victory Conditions: all enabled
Other settings: Aggressive AI


Brennus:
Brennus is Spiritual and Charismatic; starting with mysticism and hunting. Spiritual allows you to switch between civics and religions without any anarchy period, and gives double production on temples. Charismatic is a new trait in warlords. It gives 1 free happy face in all cities, +1 happy face from monuments and broadcast towers and units require 25% less experience to gain promotions.

Unique unit: Gallic Warrior
The Gallic Warrior replaces the swordsman. In addition to the normal swordsman statistics, the Gallic Warrior gains a free Guerrilla I promotion. New from 2.08 patch is also that Gallic warriors can be produced with either Copper or Iron, so you are more likely to have the required resource to construct them.

Unique building: Dun
The Dun replaces the normal walls, and gives a free Guerrilla I promotion to all scouts, archery units, and gunpowder units that is constructed in the city before the Dun goes obsolete with the discovery of Rifling technology. Should also be mentioned that the 2.08 patch added a change to the normal walls, that also affects the dun.. It lowers the bombard damage from artillery units by 25%. This means that if an artillery unit normally can remove 20% culture defense per turn, it can only remove 15% if the city has a wall/dun (castles/citadels will lower this with a further 25/50% )

About the Guerrilla promotions:
2.08 patch brought a further change to the Guerrilla III promotion. Units that has this promotion now receives a 30% retreat chance in addition to a 25% hill attack bonus. This retreat chance works everywhere, no matter if you attack onto a hill tile or not.

The starting screenshot is here (Click for larger version)


Adventurer Class bonuses:

1. Start with a worker.
2. Start with knowledge of Mining.

Challenger Class Equalizers:

1. Start without the knowledge of Mysticism

 

[Goodenuf]

Haven't played the Celts yet, so this should be fun.

8 rivals on a standard map? Aggressive AI? An early UU that takes advantage of rocky terrain? Sounds like an early expansion by the sword will be needed.

Typically with a Spiritual civ that starts with Mysticism, I like to grab a religion or 3 first, but given how crowded and bumpy (i.e. rocky) this map will be, it seems that military and building techs will be a priority.

Initial techs would likely be AH (cows), then Mining/BW (any copper for those Gallic warriors?). I'd also want to get Masonry to take advantage of the unique building (Dun).

Builds would likely start with Warrior/Worker (if size 2)/Warrior

The start looks like it would be tough to beat with access to 4 resources, and defensible on a hill. Certainly a peek E or NW to either hill (or 2S to check the Southern suggested spot) with the scout first would be advisable just in case anything dramatic shows up someplace.

Looks like fun!

 

[Kauyon]

Looks sweet. We have the advantage. Nice start area. Is the challenge the aggressive AI? Or Monarch?

Watch there not be any Copper or Iron close by. What a twist?

We'll see.

-Nick

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Interesting looking game. Settling in-place looks good, though I'm also slightly tempted by NW of the settler - loses the forest but avoids losing the production from the grassland-hill that happens if you settle in-place, and also retains all four of the starting resources. Loses the grassland-river and what I think is a jungle-grassland-river though which isn't so good for commerce.

btw it's well worth looking at the details of the 2.08 patch. I've not yet tried playing with the patch, but I've read the list of changes - there's a lot of quite significant changes to the game, including improved AI intelligence (which I'm guessing means this game will be a bit harder than you'd expect for monarch level if you're used to pre-2.08 games). And for anyone planning on CS slingshot, mathematics is now a prerequisite to civil service (I'm guessing that means a straight Oracle-CS-slingshot is now all but impossible). Hopefully there'll be someone around who has played with the patch who can give more details of any differences in game flavour?

 

[Murky]

I've messed around with the patch some but not finished any games yet. The new AI seems more aggressive. Some of them like to tech and build fewer units while others love going for domination/conquest. If Augustus is in the game, we're in for a good challenge. He can usually dominate the early game with his Praetorians and he's also creative for faster border expansion. The new AIs also have some odd looking city placement preferences too. A few practices games should give you a good idea of what you're up against.

 

[malekithe]

And for anyone planning on CS slingshot, mathematics is now a prerequisite to civil service (I'm guessing that means a straight Oracle-CS-slingshot is now all but impossible).

It's not actually a whole lot harder to do the straight Oracle-CS slingshot (though, it is a lot harder to do the Great Prophet-CS slingshot). Most of the time when going for the CS slingshot, you'll be getting an early library and running a few scientists to speed research of CoL and get an academy in your capital as soon as possible. Now, instead of building the academy, you just have to use the Great Scientist to discover mathematics.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm undecided like DynamicSpirit, between in-place and 1NW of settler.
Scout NW can help the decision, but ususally i don't like to loose 1 turn, also on Epic (but monarch difficulty).

I'm curious too too see the changes, some practice game is mandatory.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's not actually a whole lot harder to do the straight Oracle-CS slingshot (though, it is a lot harder to do the Great Prophet-CS slingshot). Most of the time when going for the CS slingshot, you'll be getting an early library and running a few scientists to speed research of CoL and get an academy in your capital as soon as possible. Now, instead of building the academy, you just have to use the Great Scientist to discover mathematics.

OK, thanks for the explanation! So that basically means you have to use scientists for at least some of your research, rather than, as I've tended to do when going for a CS slingshot, using cottages. That also means there no longer is any choice about whether to build a library or not.

 

[Redbad]

Interesting looking game. Settling in-place looks good, though I'm also slightly tempted by NW of the settler - loses the forest but avoids losing the production from the grassland-hill that happens if you settle in-place, ...

Settling NW also loses a grassland hill; from what can be seen now, in both situations there are 2 workable grassland hills.

 

[Murky]

Question: Are the huts near the capital removed?

 

[Thrallia]

I think I'd rather keep a forest than gain a grassland hill...Thus unless my scout sees something better than cows to the S, I'll settle in place.

I also will not likely go for a CS slingshot, simply because I am not really good at doing it...so I don't want to mess with trying for it now when there are 8 AI and all of them are aggressive. I think I'll go either AH, Mining, BW, then probably Masonry, or Meditation, Mining, BW, AH. Perhaps this time I'll actually go the military route like I've been attempting to do for the last 3 GOTM.

Additionally, the added requirement for CS makes a feudalism slingshot much more interesting for warlords(especially since it gives you access to vassal states) Anyone want to try for that?

 

[Gyathaar]

Question: Are the huts near the capital removed?

All huts that was reachable in a certain amount of turns has been removed.
I wish there was a way around that, but I saw all too well in SGOTM2 what the consequences of not removing nearby huts could be..

 

[Sarek]

2.08 + BLAKE + Monarch + 8AI + All AGG =

 

[Softnum]

Lake + mysticism = early religion?

 

[mushroomshirt]

I am thinking about trying a cultural victory again. I have tried this on the last few GOTMs and I think I am getting better at it. I like early expansion by warring with this civ & UU. If not a Pangaea, maybe I will even try to clear the continent before really kicking the cultural stuff into gear. With aggressive AIs I worry a lot about the "cocoon" period where the AI can tech to cavalry or something.

Am thinking about settling 2S so that my capital can get the benefit of the river tiles and the associated commerce bonus.

This time around I may try for only wonders that give great artist points (with the possible exception of pyramids for Universal Suffrage and/or great library for science boost in the rush to liberalism). I have not tried the pyramids for U.S. in my last few cultural games, but I could see how cash rushing cathedrals could help. Of course with spiritual trait, could also slip back from caste system into slavery pretty easily... so not sure about this one. Pretty sure I could always find a use for a great engineer. Not as sure I can always figure out what to do with a late game scientist.

 

[ButSam]

By "Warlords v2.08", does that mean with or without the Hot Seat fix? (Or does it matter?)

Sam

 

[IL2T]

All huts that was reachable in a certain amount of turns has been removed.
I wish there was a way around that, but I saw all too well in SGOTM2 what the consequences of not removing nearby huts could be..

How about "No tribal villages" option?
GH may give player some Classical techs and Astronomy(!) theoretically.
IMHO This is too much random factor in tournament game!?

 

[Gyathaar]

By "Warlords v2.08", does that mean with or without the Hot Seat fix? (Or does it matter?)

Sam

Good question (It does matter)..
I guess the majority of players does not have the hotfix installed, and those who have it installed already knows what file is in question.

Therefore it seems easiest to make the savegame require you to not have it installed (hopefully those that has installed it made a backup of the original file like suggested in the hotfix thread)

Any other suggestions?

 

[Vynd]

Good question (It does matter)..
I guess the majority of players does not have the hotfix installed, and those who have it installed already knows what file is in question.

Therefore it seems easiest to make the savegame require you to not have it installed (hopefully those that has installed it made a backup of the original file like suggested in the hotfix thread)

Any other suggestions?

Sounds good to me.

 

[Danthor]

Rivals: 8 (2 more than standard for map size)
Map: Fractal
Mapsize: Standard, cylindrical

Isn't standard number of rivals 7 for a standard sized fractal map?