News: WOTM18 Pregame Discussion

beline IW is a deadend. Thats why IMO Alfa then trading for IW is optimal. If you go for IW you will be so much behind when tech trading became available that you will be doomed.

to the map creater - why the gems are under jungle - that makes them useless for very long time. If you think that we will be overpowered i don't think so. The AIs will get all the gold and the gems very fast. the jungled gems mean that Alfa will take 50+ turns, IW ~ 35-40 turns. on deity that mean(+ if no seafood) not very good starting city.
Well most if not all will be killed so its equal to all players :)
 
Gems on jungle are very normal. The top players wanted a "standard" deity start that they were likely to lose. My fear is that with all the high level games that have been going on for the last two months, we will alienate all the beginnng to average players. As for me, I will dive in and play until the hopelessness is clear.
 
beline IW is a deadend. Thats why IMO Alfa then trading for IW is optimal. If you go for IW you will be so much behind when tech trading became available that you will be doomed.

I was hoping tech trading would become available around the time we got IW and we could research Alfa with Praetorians. Plus clear the gems and have more justification for moving the settler S. But it requires iron (this strat definitely puts all your eggs in one basket) and at least one nearby civ- who knows, with Fractal, every civ can be isolated... Anyway you'd have to at least learn agri first, there is too much food around not to work it.

More conservative is: Settle in place. Work the food, grow towns/claim land, get BW for the whip. And, yup, get to alfa quickly to trade for tech while avoiding blood-fueds with Deity AI.

And, we don't know if we have iron but we do know about ivory. Cats and phants. But it feels like I'm overlooking something :confused:
 
I was hoping tech trading would become available around the time we got IW and we could research Alfa with Praetorians. Plus clear the gems and have more justification for moving the settler S. But it requires iron (this strat definitely puts all your eggs in one basket) and at least one nearby civ- who knows, with Fractal, every civ can be isolated... Anyway you'd have to at least learn agri first, there is too much food around not to work it.

More conservative is: Settle in place. Work the food, grow towns/claim land, get BW for the whip. And, yup, get to alfa quickly to trade for tech while avoiding blood-fueds with Deity AI.

And, we don't know if we have iron but we do know about ivory. Cats and phants. But it feels like I'm overlooking something :confused:

Going to IW first, and then alpha will loose you the tech race and it will be very hard to recover. By the time you get alpha, everyone else will have IW, so you will have to trade away alpha anyway. I plan to go Hunting, AH, Writing and Alpha. If I'm lucky I can trade away Writing for low tech or gift for relation. Then I'll use alpha for BW and IW, and other low techs that I need. The only uncertainty is if I need to grab archery or not. That depends on how close the AI is (they help with fog busting).

My basic plan is to skip a lot of techs and target CS. Apart from Archery, I may learn Literature for GLib. If possible, I will use Prets to take a city or two from one neighbor (around 1000 BC), and barb-cities. One extra homemade city is enough (first on the sugar 1W) if neighbor is close. Early library => 2 scientists for GS => Academy.

I've never won a Deity, so don't take my ideas too seriously! I'll run a test game first to tune my plan. My only goal is to win.
 
Going to IW first, and then alpha will loose you the tech race and it will be very hard to recover. By the time you get alpha, everyone else will have IW, so you will have to trade away alpha anyway. I plan to go Hunting, AH, Writing and Alpha. If I'm lucky I can trade away Writing for low tech or gift for relation. Then I'll use alpha for BW and IW, and other low techs that I need. The only uncertainty is if I need to grab archery or not. That depends on how close the AI is (they help with fog busting).

Sounds like you'll skip agri. Building only 1 settler, I suppose we won't need all that food right away. It might be nice to build up a few extra unhappy citizens to whip into a library (&etc) though, so maybe a detour to agri first? Or are we in that big a hurry for apha?

I'm starting to think about settling 1W too. An extra food is a great bonus, though it sacrifices health from a harbor later on. Would you cottage a sugar?

Edit: I looked at the test game and obviously I was mistaken about what resources were present. My comments have been based on the wrong info!
 
Settling 1 square to the south
I like the idea of settling 1 square to the south. Consider that if the Forest wasn't there, you'd almost certainly move there on the first turn in favour of settling at the starting location. So, there's just an extra bit of pain involved here, of having to use up one extra turn, to make you hesitate.

Settling in place means that you won't get to use the Grassland Hills square, on which we start, for extra production. That square could be very useful with so many Grassland squares around the starting location. Will that extra turn really make up for a lack of Hammers in your capital?

However, settling 1 S:
a) gives you that Grassland Hills square
b) keeps you next to the Lake for the Fresh Water bonus
c) keeps you on the Coast for sea-based buildings and for building ships
d) better secures the Gems without needing a second city. At this difficulty level, getting 2 or 3 cities total is about all that I can hope for early on, so I don't want to have to commit a city location just to grab that Gem Resource when I can get it for free within my capital's fat cross
e) moves you closer to the Ivory squares so that they are harder for an AI city to culturally steal
f) allows you to keep all of the visible Resources within your city's fat cross
g) gives you a better chance of choosing when the AI to the east meet the AI to the west (assuming that there is at least one AI to either side of our starting location). I'd rather block the AI off and then choose who to let by with Open Border agreements--it'll be a while after Writing before you get Alphabet anyway, so I don't worry about the AI not getting a chance to meet each other, should I chose to let them do so
h) trades 2 Grassland squares, 2 Coastal squares, and 1 Ocean square for 5 Grassland-based squares, including 2 squares with a Resource on them. Yes, those 5 squares all appear to have Jungle on them, but Jungle can be cleared. An Ocean square won't be of much use unless Oil appears there; if I am lucky enough to get that far in tech without losing my capital, I'll be happy to have the Oil appear just outside of my fat cross while still being in my Civ's cultural borders


Settling 1 square to the west
Yes, settling 1 W on top of a 3 Food Resource is also a viable option.

However, there is an additional consideration with losing out on the abilities of building sea-based buildings and building ships. You will miss out on building a Lighthouse for the Lake. I'd be willing to have that Lake as a 3 Food, 2 Commerce square, so that maybe I can build a city close by to the west. The capital could use the Lake square while the city to the west shares the Pig and maybe some of the other Food Resource squares within our capital's fat cross.

I'm also afraid that an AI would take advantage of our move to plop down a city one square to the east of the east-most Ivory. With some cultural pressure, they could feasibly steal all of the Ivory squares from us.

Even with 1 Ivory square, an AI is likely to get a larger army of War Elephants than us, and likely faster than we can even research Construction, so I'd be very hesitant in giving that obvious opening to an AI.

Sure, you could put YOUR second city one square to the east of the east-most Ivory, but are you certain to settle that location before an AI does? That proposition sounds pretty risky to me, at this difficulty level.


Other random comments
Settling on the Ivory to the SE won't gain you much, because the Ivory is on a Grassland square. If it were on a Plains square, you could net yourself an extra Hammer in your city's centre, but fortunately, we aren't faced with that difficult choice.

The last post to this thread was "By Jove," which I found to be pretty funny, since there are several sayings that start with those words. One which springs to mind is: "By Jove, guv'nor, I believe he's had away with your wallet!" :eek:

If I had a choice between trading for Mathematics or Iron Working from Alphabet, I'd take Mathematics. Obviously, if you can get both, do so. We know for certain that we have Ivory and Construction is only two techs away from Mathematics (try to trade for Masonry so that it's only one tech away!). While Praetorians are beauties, getting Iron is likely going to require you to settle another city after you've learned Iron Working. Yes, we might have Iron on our starting Grassland Hills square, but people did ask for a non-doctored Deity level game, so I'm not counting on it.
 
I can see the point in moving 1S, but I like it less all the time. Losing a turn on Deity is expensive, especially when we can get a boost to our start by settling on the sugar. The future can take care of itself; I want to grow this civ asap.

The question now is: after alpha, do we go to construction or beeline Philosophy through Drama and trade for the rest? And CS? I dunno.
And it will likely not make a difference either way in the end. I think I'll just get started.
 
Sounds like you'll skip agri. Building only 1 settler, I suppose we won't need all that food right away. It might be nice to build up a few extra unhappy citizens to whip into a library (&etc) though, so maybe a detour to agri first? Or are we in that big a hurry for apha?

I'm starting to think about settling 1W too. An extra food is a great bonus, though it sacrifices health from a harbor later on. Would you cottage a sugar?

Edit: I looked at the test game and obviously I was mistaken about what resources were present. My comments have been based on the wrong info!

Yes, I skip agri. I played the test game like this:

Settle 1W
Build worker, then warriors, settler#2 (at pop3), library, settler#3
Hunting 3730 BC
AH 3100 BC
Writing 2410 BC
Alpha 1300 BC

The start gave me 4 :) and 5 :health: cap
Barb warrior showed up 3100 BC
Barb archer appeared 2860 BC
GS born 1300 BC => academy => 18 bpt
Trade for BW, Wheel, Myst, Agri 1270 BC
Trade for IW, Poly, Pottery, Archery 1240 BC
Trade for Priesthood, Sailing 1210 BC
I could not trade away writing.

Alpha 1300 BC is not early, but not too late either. I would have preferred to trade myst for writing to unlock more religious tech trades.

I also think it's better to build worker #2 instead of settler #3, to quickly connect cities. The worker was idle for a couple of turns until I realized I could camp the jungle ivory (next to second city) :blush:.

No need to self-tech to construction. Drama/Philosophy is possible, but I think I'll try to go CoL => CS.

Perhaps you've started playing, so I don't expect an answer. Good luck to everyone, see you in Hades :lol:
 
My fear is that with all the high level games that have been going on for the last two months, we will alienate all the beginnng to average players.

Too late. Way too late.
 
Perhaps you've started playing, so I don't expect an answer. Good luck to everyone, see you in Hades :lol:

Yeah I couldn't resist starting, so now mum's the word. To bad we can't continue this farther. But yes good luck to all, and see you in Hades indeed lol
 
I hadn't logged into Civfanatics for a long time, and here I do, and ... lo! ... a Deity game on an intriguing map. I may have to come out of retirement for this one. Last time I tried Deity on a GOTM, I seem to recall a failed Quecha rush that left a bad taste in my mouth. Remember that one, Lexad?

Yes, a week off from work and a Deity GOTM, I think I'm there. Though I'm sure my game rust will preclude a win. Still, it will be nice to play with my old pals at CivFanatics. Hi Jesusin! Lexad! ;)
 
Welcome back, godotnut! Let's kick some major rump with our caligae!
 
Got my hands on test save. Shift in favour of 1W settling, going straight for Alpha. If there are no/few willing trading partners however, this strat will fail miserably.

The start is extremely commerce-poor - early library is a must. Maybe I'll even have to work the lake. And watch the lightbulbs/coins output once you put your next city and thus face upkeep costs - the rounding down to the closest natural number tends to lose an odd commerce unit here and there. And in our commerce-poor start such loss can mean up to 8-10% research level (3-5% once you get the library going).
At least 1 settler for land grab (gems) is also a must. And some fogbusting warriors.

The trading should be as cautious as hedgehog loving to irritate people in the correct order.
 
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