Next Expansion

Tech tree won't (most likely) change in expansion - that's for civ5.

Modern warfare would require a few hundred more turns, lots more unit types, and expanded tech tree. As it currently is, when you get mech inf and modern armor, there isn't much left anymore (unless you've disabled space and time victories - although on higher levels maybe you can get to modern armor in 18th century or so). Of course this would introduce a new problem: what else would be added than warring? There must be something for us builders too then.. :)
 
I would be inclined to extend the space race... instead of hopping the next colony ship to Alpha Centauri right after your Apollo mission... require further development. A Space Center (like NASA). A space station (with Sattelites and Robotics technology). THEN a colony ship.

Of course I would rather handle it like Manhattan Project, with Apollo Mission being a World Wonder -- images of fascinated people crowded around televisions all over the world watching those first few steps--that then let all nations begin advancing space programs--but the World Wonder being more likely to produce Great People.
 
Tech tree won't (most likely) change in expansion - that's for civ5.

Modern warfare would require a few hundred more turns, lots more unit types, and expanded tech tree. As it currently is, when you get mech inf and modern armor, there isn't much left anymore (unless you've disabled space and time victories - although on higher levels maybe you can get to modern armor in 18th century or so). Of course this would introduce a new problem: what else would be added than warring? There must be something for us builders too then.. :)

I agree with your point, especially on the tech tree. I can see an expansion--adding a few to flesh out the modern age. They did it in Civ3 (Ironclads tech). I would rather see the spaceship go towards Mars than Alpha Centauri, along with a "first space race" to Luna first.

However, I don't think that'll be the focus. The information I've read in other threads implies they are going for diplomacy and spies being revamped, and I'm holding out for the dozen civilizations!
 
I agree with your point, especially on the tech tree. I can see an expansion--adding a few to flesh out the modern age. They did it in Civ3 (Ironclads tech). I would rather see the spaceship go towards Mars than Alpha Centauri, along with a "first space race" to Luna first.

However, I don't think that'll be the focus. The information I've read in other threads implies they are going for diplomacy and spies being revamped, and I'm holding out for the dozen civilizations!

From those threads do you have any idea how they are looking to revamp diplomacy?
 
I forget where...Aussie_Lurker was mentioning offhandedly in some thread a month or two ago. I don't quite know how because I'm not the original source of the info.
 
It really doesn't work like that. From my understanding from a book about the modern US navy, destroyers are anti-missile ships, cruisers are anti-ship ships, subs are anti-ship and anti-sub boats, and battleships aren't even used anymore.

In reality, most modern ships are multi-role ships. I've compared the armament of destroyers to cruisers and they're nearly identical; the only difference is that destroyers are a bit smaller and have more anti-missile/anti-air capability and cruisers have more anti-ship capability. But not by much for each.

Battleships are totally outclassed in every way today. Battleships may be the biggest of the ships (besides modern carriers), but they rely on cannons. Cannons these days are not used as a primary weapon. Today is all about the missiles. There's no way a battleship could ever defeat a modern cruiser or destroyer; there's no way it would even get into firing range. That's why they aren't used anymore. And the fact that they aren't used anymore is why it really bugs me that they're still the most powerful naval unit in Civ.

as someone else said: today. in any case, my intention was merely to point to real life past or present to see if we can construct some sort of interesting balance of power in naval warfare. after all, we want a strategy game, not a simulator, right?
 
Ok, you are talking about the most recent ships, like something more powerful which becomes available with the latest techs (an AEGIS cruiser, or something like this).
However, if you think at how things worked a half century later, Shadowhal's combinations are not so incorrect: battleships still ruled.
Both in the game and in the real life, each unit must have a strong point, a usefulness (as soon as it's not obsolete), and it must be worth it to build it.
If a battleship is identical to a destroyer, just stronger, then the destroyer is an obsolete unit. No good!!! Why did they produce both battleships and destroyers in World War 2? Why did destroyers stay useful, and stand the battle against battleships? Give historymen the answer!

You're right about how things worked half a century earlier (crazy how fast technology advanced in 60 years isn't it?). And I understand Shadowhal's strategy system of x unit beats y, y beats z, z beats x.

But I say we cannot have a viable strategic system without the system simulating real life at least to some extent.

My biggest problem is considering WWII-era units as "modern". To me it's almost as if the mid-20th century should be it's own era, because technologically 60 years ago is archaic compared to today. Half a century ago is a totally different era than today; that's just the reality of living in the past 100 years.

"Battleships" aren't modern like the game thinks. For some reason they remain the strongest naval unit even in the future tech/space age, when reality shows us that battleships are no longer useful. That's where my problem is. Big ships with big guns just aren't used in today's world where small, multi purpose ships with missiles, carriers and subs rule the waves.

Maybe in Civ V they will work this out. For tech ages, it's easy to see the ancient era encompass thousands of years, classical hundreds of years, middle ages a few hundred, and the time spans getting smaller and smaller as you go through the ages. By the time you get to the modern era, that entire era only encompasses a couple decades. But think about how much things have changed in just those few decades?

Perhaps even a couple decades is too many years for the modern era? Maybe the current modern age can be broken up into two eras called mid 20th century and modern? It would be two complete ages...you'd go from industrial to mid 20th to modern; they'd be complete ages with a whole page of techs each. Each turn would have to take less than a year though or else units would be outdated in just a few turns. But it could be done. All that's needed is the techs of course and a reduction in the time span of each turn.

This way we'd see battleships that really ruled the waves, but eventually being replaced by modern carriers and their modern fleets. In the mid 20th era it would be all about the battleship. Plus think of all the possibilities for ground units and buildings/techs.

My brother's on the Arleigh Burke right now (the first modern guided missile destroyer and the ship for which the entire class of destroyers was named. Lucky him!) I'll have to ask him what role each ship has now. These days ships are multi-purpose so I don't know what a destroyer does vs a cruiser.
 
Civ 4 is a wonderful game, but it is severely lacking in civs. At the very least, they need to bring back the missing Civ3 Civs (Byzantines, Dutch, Hittites, Mayans, Portuguese, Sumerians, Babylonians, Iroquois) but if we're in fantasy dream land, I'd prefer that they add more on top of that. No Southeast Asian country has never been in a Civ Game, and any of them would add wonderful flavour to the game. Also, Ethiopia would be nice.
 
You're right about how things worked half a century earlier (crazy how fast technology advanced in 60 years isn't it?). And I understand Shadowhal's strategy system of x unit beats y, y beats z, z beats x.

But I say we cannot have a viable strategic system without the system simulating real life at least to some extent.

My biggest problem is considering WWII-era units as "modern". To me it's almost as if the mid-20th century should be it's own era, because technologically 60 years ago is archaic compared to today. Half a century ago is a totally different era than today; that's just the reality of living in the past 100 years.

"Battleships" aren't modern like the game thinks. For some reason they remain the strongest naval unit even in the future tech/space age, when reality shows us that battleships are no longer useful. That's where my problem is. Big ships with big guns just aren't used in today's world where small, multi purpose ships with missiles, carriers and subs rule the waves.

Maybe in Civ V they will work this out. For tech ages, it's easy to see the ancient era encompass thousands of years, classical hundreds of years, middle ages a few hundred, and the time spans getting smaller and smaller as you go through the ages. By the time you get to the modern era, that entire era only encompasses a couple decades. But think about how much things have changed in just those few decades?

Perhaps even a couple decades is too many years for the modern era? Maybe the current modern age can be broken up into two eras called mid 20th century and modern? It would be two complete ages...you'd go from industrial to mid 20th to modern; they'd be complete ages with a whole page of techs each. Each turn would have to take less than a year though or else units would be outdated in just a few turns. But it could be done. All that's needed is the techs of course and a reduction in the time span of each turn.

This way we'd see battleships that really ruled the waves, but eventually being replaced by modern carriers and their modern fleets. In the mid 20th era it would be all about the battleship. Plus think of all the possibilities for ground units and buildings/techs.

My brother's on the Arleigh Burke right now (the first modern guided missile destroyer and the ship for which the entire class of destroyers was named. Lucky him!) I'll have to ask him what role each ship has now. These days ships are multi-purpose so I don't know what a destroyer does vs a cruiser.

well, i basically do not have any objection, the problem is: where do you draw the line? when exactly was / is an era? for some ages you have certain dates where the era officially ended and a new one started. as i understand it, the modern age / renaissance effectively started with the discovery of america, midieval age ... rather not after the fall of rome. after charlemagne? when did the industrial age begin? with the first steam engines? with their widespread use?

sounds a bit weird what i am writing because i am thinking and writing at the same time. let's say you could have a post industrial age (historically maybe starting with WW I and lasting until end of WWII, say discovery of nuclear fission) and a modern age. but by your argument that society or warfare or whatever changed so much the last 60 years. it did change a lot in recent times, didn't it? catchword "information age" my point being that you could fracture the game into several different eras each with on its own merits, but is it worth it?

why not a simpler option: have the battleship tuned down a bit, available earlier and the other ships stronger, modeled after their actual functions and we should all be happy.

and I agree completely that planes and carriers should have a stronger role in both land and naval warfare because they are essentially the most potent weapon of the 20th century (except for nukes that is).

edit: uh, almost forgot, some totally different though: how about a diplomatic option "demilitarised zone"? something like if agreed upon no military units may be stationed on tile within boarder reach. might be nice for delaying military action or something like that, could also be an option in the UN if a vote is held to settle a conflict between two civs.
 
Hmm you're right about defining when these ages start and end. I didn't actually put a lot of thought into the idea; just thought of the basics.

I would say that the mid 20th era ends and the modern era begins sometime in the late 70s/early 80s. There's not enough techs in the current game to define this (one reason I want that extra age thrown in). Something like guided missile systems or stealth technology, or one of a number of possible non-military techs.

Is it worth it to do? I think so. Why not? Like I said, it's easy to lump a lot of ancient techs into the ancient era since technology back didn't advance all that far even after hundreds of years. But technologies have advanced so rapidly the past few decades that it's hard to lump them all into one generic modern era without leaving a lot of stuff out.

But this is coming from a guy who wouldn't mind a more complicated, more thorough Civ game with more of everything.
 
Hmm you're right about defining when these ages start and end. I didn't actually put a lot of thought into the idea; just thought of the basics.

I would say that the mid 20th era ends and the modern era begins sometime in the late 70s/early 80s.

hmmm... I think the modern era is the one just past the industrial one, the first half of the 20th C. and the second half could be defined as post-modern... now many people call our time as the "informarion age".

I think that the game has to get a "bit" longer if they want to expand the tech tree to include all what is going on lately... personally i wouldn't mind, since i love long games.
 
well, why not. I am doing some brainstorming over items that could go into this new era.

modern armor, marines, mechanised infantry, artillery and modern aircraft which is already in.

Mobile communication - technology. maybe this could provide some bonus or wonder in combination with satellites. something along the lines of GPS or satellite network. could give map visibility or extra movement.

Space stations that could give a science bonus, maybe available with comuters, satellites and some (new) other tech.

Digital Technology. I would say that this has changed our world quite a bit, so have it in. just what could it improve? faster research? more happyness due to more entertainment content?

also I would want personal computers in. we do have computers in general, but considering how computers - in contrast to the vast mainframes - have changes private life, work life, science and so on, they would deserve to be in.

then I would also say, delay the gunships a bit to a later tech and introduce a WW II anti tank gun as a tank counter.

also, in that 1st half 20th century I would want a torpedo bomber or other plane good against naval units as some other poster suggested.

finally, I would surely love some new civic options. either add to the categories already there or introduce a new one. how about things such as monogamy vs polygamy, birth control, homosexual marriages, free press vs censorship, oh yes we have free speech already. well, you know what I mean. whatever sounds even remotely interesting.
 
Regarding the differences between mid-20th century and modern navies:

I wonder if a simple kludge might be to introduce some more modern ships that have several first strikes? The mechanic already exists in the game, and it (sorta) mimics the effect of increased range weapons without needing a huge boost in basic power. You could have a cruiser dependent on computers that offered 1-3 first strikes (with upgrades), which would severely hurt a conventional battleship.

Although I'm sure that there's a down side I haven't considered yet. . .
 
Regarding the differences between mid-20th century and modern navies:

I wonder if a simple kludge might be to introduce some more modern ships that have several first strikes? The mechanic already exists in the game, and it (sorta) mimics the effect of increased range weapons without needing a huge boost in basic power. You could have a cruiser dependent on computers that offered 1-3 first strikes (with upgrades), which would severely hurt a conventional battleship.

Although I'm sure that there's a down side I haven't considered yet. . .

sounds fair enough. iirc the spanish/ french and british navies in the battle of trafalgar had some noticeable differences in range which were part of the outcome. after all the spanish had the largest warship of the era on their side and still lost.

but that's another era.

I would pay 30 bucks for an expansion that allowed one to attack naval forces in port.

would that be hard to mod? if it were not, surely you find someone to do it .... if you really pay that much ... lol
 
ah, one more thing: rumors have it that the spying system will be changed. well, I would surely appreciate it: I for one would like to have the following information available for other civs (at a certain price of course, however that is determined or paid)

* army strengh, eg number of soldiers, or directly amount of units of a specified type
* technologies: indirectly it is know via the diplomacy window, but still some are only later visible because you may not be advanced enough to see past the next tech
* ongoing research and maybe building project (in particular national and world wonder, but also other stuff even units and building might be of interest)

I think gal civ II had a decent approach for it (I heard the expansion enhanced it actually) in that you allocate a portion of your income to spying on a certain civ and in time you would get more and more detailed reports on that civ.

in any case, it needs an overhaul because I would really like some spying before late game kremel era.
 
Lets see....

Diplomacy: Multiple way diplomacy in addition to just 1-on-1. Bit more elaborate UN (for example, you could decide if you belong to it or go "renegade"), and also some sort of proto-UN that you get much earlier.

Internal politics: Provinces in your civ and having to keep them happy or they might try to secede. Add more to civics pehaps.

Naval warfare: Make it matter more. Make blockading cities easier and matter more. Being able to destroy cities' sea-related improvements could be one thing. Just 1 or 2 ships inside a city's fat cross to cause blockade could be another. Or ships could have a large trade blocking zone of control around them.

New units I wouldn't need that much. Paratroopers and cruise missiles possibly, and both could also be handled by promotion. Paratroop promotions available to infantry and missile promotions to artillery and ships once you have the relevant tech.
 
New units,new civilizations(FINLAND,Poland,Israel ect.), better naval warfare, atom bomb :P Option to rent area of civilization. Like Finland did for USSR petsamo was rented 44-56.
 
i like the idea of royal marriage, you know, 2 civ would be very close ally for a duration (marriage must consist opposite sex leaders!):mischief:
 
I'd like to see a return to the old advisors screens - actually having faces, personalities and opinions on your choices. I'm sure most of us will continue to go our own way, but I always enjoyed hearing their council. Another minor change that I'd like to see is the changing of your leader's appearance through the ages - I realise it has no impact on the actual game, but it helped with the visualisation. And how about spies being able to do more than they currently can? Didn't they used to be able to steal techs and some other things as well?
 
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