Next Stage of Agreements with KISS

I'm not sure what KISS will get for Republic from the other teams since they are at war and Monarchy is a better choice for both teams.

I would do all the trading once they have Republic, no sooner no later. That way we will not lose any teachs. Also I think it will be best for us if we send them all the Techs we are going to trade for Repbulic before they research Republic without accepting it, so that they must send us Republic and accept, so that we can get use of Republic before they can use those techs.
 
I don't have any problem giving them Math early if it keeps the peace. We don't want them to feel like they have to go overseas to get it.
 
This PM from Whomp

Hey Fe,
Can you send us Lit, maths, map making this turn? Then currency next turn.
We'd like to get started on some libs, markets and galleys. Maths we can say we got it from a hut. If the other teams ask we can say we cut a deal for republic for the techs.
Gracias amigo.
Whomp
Click to expand...

:shakehead: I say at the most send Mathematics now, in fact I'd even be happy to hold off and send a request for clarification (although that is heavy) ... but we will need to seriously discuss WTH they think this 'relationship' is going ... I am getting very mixed messages from KISS.

1. There are NO embassy shots nor a shot from KISS capital !!!
2. I recall the swap always happening when Republic was ready ... so add 5 turns onto the 11 outstanding and we get an exchange date of turn 79.
3. Where is the compensation for gold spent on aquiring technology from TNT.
4. Secrecy ... the whole point in waiting for the mutual swap was to keep our relationship hidden from the other teams ... this is also why the rate of Republic research was raised from an idle to full throttle.

They seem to want the best of both worlds.


@ Grimsey seems you were correct in your appraisal of the previous chat.

@RIK :worship: ... I think your sensing that stage in a relationship when NOT doing the washing up is NOT that cute anymore ;)
 
This is from Official Agreement II
4. MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favoured Nation status". Most Favoured Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn at the monopoly beaker cost less the emporer rate trade discount of 20% if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.

4a. Deals with other nations which go beyond simple technology trade at the monopoly beaker cost for, must be agreed to by the other party.

6. Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured Nation" status.
Click to expand...

I have also gone through chats with KISS where we have discussed the Republic trade ... nothing changed to the above.
 
Tread very carefully here... I can still see giving them Math as a goodwill gesture, but not everything else. Their point about "claiming we cut a deal for Republic" does not work for me - yes, we can claim that we are trading them for Republic, but sending them 12 turns early clearly indicates a very trusting relationship which we don't want to demonstrate.
 
What is going on?! I'm getting very depressed about things regarding KISS.

KISSMIA have the potential to sweep this game! Why are they asking for things that are simply beyond the scope of our agreements? I really want to help them (as they help us) but this is too much.

Give them Math (for free), but a carefully worded note or chat must accompany the trade laying out our concerns. They must stick by the signed agreements: doing otherwise reduces the trust we all have spent the last 40 turns engendering.
 
peter grimes said:
What is going on?! I'm getting very depressed about things regarding KISS.

KISSMIA have the potential to sweep this game! Why are they asking for things that are simply beyond the scope of our agreements? I really want to help them (as they help us) but this is too much.

Give them Math (for free), but a carefully worded note or chat must accompany the trade laying out our concerns. They must stick by the signed agreements: doing otherwise reduces the trust we all have spent the last 40 turns engendering.
Click to expand...
KISS are too paranoid. So far we have been completely honest to them and we have shown that we are willing to go above and beyond many agreements to keep them happy. I believe that it is time for us to be given some leeway for our good work with this alliance. They must remember that it is not all give from us and take from them. They must show us some latitude towards us because we have been shown to be faithful to this alliance. But it seems that they do not trust us, which is very confusing. I agree that if both teams works together, we can be the dominant force in the game, but we could easily be that force by ourselves if they start to get edgier than they are right now.
 
Here is my attempt at a flowery note. There may be some last minute changes depending on what we pop from the hut, but let me know what you think of the basics:

Dear friends,

Attached is the save with a gift of Mathematics along with our fondest holiday wishes in the spirit of goodwill. At this time, we are unable to comply with your request for other techs - although you could try to explain it as a trade for Republic, the fact that we gave you 3 techs 10 turns before you complete Republic would demonstrate to our rivals how close and trusting our civilizations are. We have spent much time and effort convincing our rivals that KISS and MIA are adversaries, and it would be foolish to throw that away now.

I wish to reiterate our people's sincerest hopes that our friendship will last until our rivals are eliminated. We at MIA are very concerned and, quite frankly, a little puzzled that our relationship with your citizens has seemed to grow tense recently. As mentioned in previous chats and messages, we will trade Republic for Currency, Map Making and Literature as soon as Republic is completed. As Republic approaches completion, prebuild for whatever marketplaces, libraries, and galleys you desire with complete confidence that our techs will be delivered promptly.

We hope the gift of Mathematics will reassure you of our intentions to enter the new Age side by side with our close friends of KISS.
Click to expand...
 
Very well framed and written: That gifting them 3 techs so far in advance will not be very smart when considering how it comes across with the battleislanders.

Good mentioning that they can prebuild 'with complete confidence'.

I would only add something in the last line...
We hop the gift of Mathematics will reassure you of our intentions to enter the new Age side by side and at Technological Parity with our close friends of KISS.

To further reassure them we could even have the admins witness this if KISS so desires.
 
Final note sent with the Turn 74 Save:

Dear friends,

Attached is the save with a gift of Mathematics along with our fondest
holiday wishes in the spirit of goodwill. At this time, we are unable
to comply with your request for other techs - although you could try
to explain it as a trade for Republic, the fact that we gave you 3
techs 10 turns before you complete Republic would demonstrate to our
rivals how close and trusting our civilizations are. We have spent
much time and effort convincing our rivals that KISS and MIA are
adversaries, and it would be foolish to throw that away now.

I wish to reiterate our people's sincerest hopes that our friendship
will last until our rivals are eliminated. We at MIA are very
concerned and, quite frankly, more than a little puzzled that our
relationship with your citizens has seemed to grow tense recently. As
mentioned in previous chats and messages, we will trade Republic for
Currency, Map Making and Literature as soon as Republic is completed.
Since Republic approaches completion, you can prebuild for whatever
marketplaces, libraries, and galleys you desire with complete
confidence that our techs will be delivered promptly.

We hope the gift of Mathematics will reassure you of our intentions to
enter the new Age side by side and at Technological Parity with our
close friends of KISS.
Click to expand...
 
:thumbsup: I'm also thinking marshmellows ... oh and also ... da da _ da _ da da _ whiskers and kittens, brown paper packages wrapped up with string :dance:

Well done Mr. Prez :salute:
 
Whomp Chat

< Whomp going to London ... catching up with Ram and others >
fe3333au: back
bawhomp: si' senor
fe3333au: That is so cool meeting civers ... not civers but people you have connected with
bawhomp: mostly uni students it seems ... but furiey is 40 yr woman
fe3333au: I like our community
bawhomp: ram, nonconformist, feline dacat, mise, comradedavo,
bawhomp: me too

Ask about Ram
fe3333au: actually could you ask Ram how come he has abandoned MIA? ... we only got 4 actives atm
bawhomp: i don't think his heart is in it ... that sucks ... i wish there was a way to recruit
fe3333au: Although I like the intimate ... we seem to get things done .. and discuss stuff

< Discussed about getting a replacement player for a pbem happening ... RM was mentioned >

OK ... MIA business time
fe3333au: So can I put my MIA Foreign Minister Hat on ?
bawhomp: ok
fe3333au: Did you get Maths?
bawhomp: we did thanks
fe3333au: and the note with it?
bawhomp: yes

They still want the techs now
bawhomp: i think we can easily explain a tech for techs deal with the other teams ... it's republic and you have the most to offer ... simple as that
fe3333au: We are also going by the Agreement that we both signed
bawhomp: remind me sorry

With Pleasure :D
fe3333au:
6. Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured Nation" status.

fe3333au: It is for that reason that we are confused by the perceived mistrust level heightening

Ease any paranoia that may be there
fe3333au: You must believe me when I say that MIA are fully behind both KISS and MIA staying in an alliance
bawhomp: well i think the feeling was we would be left without tech parity
fe3333au: No I promise that we will both have the same techs as we enter the MA

< posted at same time >
bawhomp: how would you handle the free tech?
fe3333au: and of cource we will be happy to deal very very favourably with our free tech

What to do about our free MA tech
fe3333au: you should give us a proposal for the free tech for us to consider
bawhomp: hmmm...

Spreading the Love
fe3333au: Everyone on MIA (although it is only 4 atm LOL) can see KISSMIA being a force that will be virtually unbeatable
bawhomp: we see that as well

Here we go ... waaa waaa waaaa ... there there little one :lol:
bawhomp: but the free tech makes things more interesting
fe3333au: Believe me when I say that we have no military opions pointed in your direction

Options for swap
fe3333au: Well maybe we end up sharing it and we both agree to a neutralise Great Library threat
bawhomp: that threat will be a reality and won't help much since they'd gain some very powerful techs in the process

< What necessary for Education >
fe3333au: I'm just opening a save to look at where education is

Nut threat
fe3333au: Nuts are the real threat for that I think
bawhomp: why do you think?
fe3333au: They already have Lit ... they popped it from a hut ... last or second last turn
bawhomp: there's an awful high percentage of huts for techs going on. considering they're only 10% chance iirc. lol
fe3333au: We didn't trade .. and you and TNT don't have it

< About Battle Isle Huts >
fe3333au: we know of 2 untaken huts on the coast ... they have been busy with war ... so probably only now got around to it

< Our Huts >
fe3333au: btw ... we got cash from the hut we popped ... have 1 left

Education research
fe3333au: so tech is Mono and then theology then Education
bawhomp: right straight beeline ... only one can research the path
fe3333au: I was hoping it required 2 different one ... oh well ... so we should work out who can get it fastest ... maybe us ... and not trade MA techs until it has been neutralised?
bawhomp: that might be best
fe3333au: then when neutralised ... we can swap
bawhomp: right

< I bet you like that ... BUT >
fe3333au: we would have to agree to a minimum research rate as well ;)
bawhomp: there's no techs i know of that you can run min on in the MA

< Shhhhh its a Secret >
fe3333au: I would also still try an maintain the secret of our Alliance ... even if only to get gossip from other teams

Still want AA techs
bawhomp: i think it's ok to send the other AA techs btw. we've told donut we are holding for the best deal and this wouldn't be a problem with secrecy since you have the best tech position and they know it
fe3333au: I will take that back for our team to consider
bawhomp: i've already told them we are holding out for the best deal
fe3333au: yes I understand that ... however we will need to discuss ... I cannot make that decision

Change Subjest ... Battle reports ?
fe3333au: any gossip from Nuts?
bawhomp: "nobody" is a trip ... you can tell he can't sit still for 2 seconds
fe3333au: LOL
fe3333au: LOL
bawhomp: i've inquired about war
fe3333au: LOL
bawhomp: he has good smileys though
fe3333au: that was good ... I may just have woken my neighbors by laughing
fe3333au: I think his name is clever ... Ulysses ... and the cyclops ... or someother greek hero sailing around
bawhomp: i think i talked more about his hurt tooth than anything

TNT and Chat
fe3333au: I notice that TNT mentioned that they have been too cagey about breaking rules in chats to engage other teams in talks LOL
fe3333au: sorry that doesn't make sence
bawhomp: why? WTH does that mean?
fe3333au: Their excuse for not chatting was that they feared breaking rules
bawhomp: WTH? ... that's just stupid
fe3333au: just excuse

PROOF !!! ... Whomp an Anti TNTer :lol:
bawhomp: they want to be silent killers? .... fine we'll silence them once and for all
fe3333au: yeah
bawhomp: bizarro strategy
fe3333au: I can't work it out ...

Settler Question
bawhomp: are you planning to get a settler to the dyes? ... it's open you know
fe3333au: yes ... very soon
bawhomp: slow moving?
fe3333au: yes ... our settlers don't like traipsing through swamp and certainly hate mosquitos ;)
bawhomp: it's pretty messy in the middle
fe3333au: Nicely designed by Rik :worship:
bawhomp: it's where all the oil and rubber is ... gear-ran-teed! ... i'm sure that was his intent
fe3333au: yep ... we pretty much have halved our continent so should both have access to it
bawhomp: it's a wide swath of nothingness and would be wholly corrupt

Warrior Wanderings
fe3333au: btw there is still a black spot for us on the top northwest of continent ... do you mind if our warrior wanders up there? ... he will not enter your lands ... just want to see the sights
bawhomp: i don't think this is an issue ... is he near our west coast cities?
fe3333au: yes ... You can say no and that would be ok
bawhomp: as long as he's not inside a border i don't see an issue
fe3333au: Yes as per our agreement

Shipping News
fe3333au: so your ship still on other continent?
bawhomp: curragh is outlining yes
fe3333au: same here

War Plans
bawhomp: do you want to attack donut and us tnt or put that off?
fe3333au: We feel TNT easy target ... but are uncomfortable that Nuts would get too strong ... so I honestly don't know ... although we feel that Nuts are our natural enemies due to being on southern part of Battle Isle and therfore neighbours
bawhomp: i know ... it's a tough spot ... and we can't help much there. what could be considered is sending a horseman scouting party
fe3333au: We would like TNT to wipe them a bit before we come in
bawhomp: will tnt give you any help on intel?

< about horse scouting >
fe3333au: oh yes ... we will certainly be sending scouts around ...

< about TNT intel >
fe3333au: They seem friendly ... ish ... They did say that last report was they beat some units ... does the F-11 screen data indicate that TNT is in golden Age?

< Fishing for info ... >
bawhomp: have they asked for help at all?
fe3333au: Not asked ... But we have told them that we have problem with KISS and have said we have a boat mapping coast ... and we said that we would supply them with Nut troop movements ... we could of course sell intel to Nuts as well if we get any ... there is no exclusivity clause between MIA and Battle ISlanders

GA for TNT ???
bawhomp: i think they must be in a GA ... it would seem we are 3 or 4 in all economic numbers which were not the case before. I would assume you too?
fe3333au: I think so ... not sure ... sorry ... I'm guessing ... I should say don't know
bawhomp: i'd guess yes that they just got it over the last 2-3 turns
fe3333au: That is soooo cool ... and we have yet to enter GA

How will TNT enter Golden Age
bawhomp: how do you plan to kick yours off? It may be difficult with hops
fe3333au: Maybe build a city and defend with hops ... and then Nuts or TNT attack
bawhomp: it could allow you to build forever. i don't think either wants to kick off your GA. lol

< 2 Wonders another way to reach Golden Age >
fe3333au: Only other way is getting 2 wonders built
bawhomp: scientific and commercial

I like Whomp's scenario :clap:
fe3333au: That would be cool .. we build cities and everyone fears getting us into GA LOL ... so we keep building cities
bawhomp: you could i'd think as long as they don't have maces and knights

Game mechanics
fe3333au: Umm ... if a hoplite captures a worker ... GA trigger ??
bawhomp: no
fe3333au: didn't think so
bawhomp: battle only iirc ... winning battle
Click to expand...
 
Still want AA techs
bawhomp: i think it's ok to send the other AA techs btw. we've told donut we are holding for the best deal and this wouldn't be a problem with secrecy since you have the best tech position and they know it
fe3333au: I will take that back for our team to consider
bawhomp: i've already told them we are holding out for the best deal
fe3333au: yes I understand that ... however we will need to discuss ... I cannot make that decision
Click to expand...

I don't think there is any problem with everyone finding out we agreed to a deal for Republic - it is not about keeping the trade itself secret. The issue is that there is no way we would give a civ we considered adversarial techs 10 turns in advance and trust them to pay later. We would never do that with TNT or Donuts. We trust KISS, and we know they will give us Republic, but we do not want TNT and Donuts to know that we trust KISS - we want them to believe we are rivals.

It is OK for TNT and Donuts to know we are trading with KISS, but not OK for them to know we trust KISS that completely.
 
fe3333au: That is so cool meeting civers ... not civers but people you have connected with
bawhomp: mostly uni students it seems ... but furiey is 40 yr woman
fe3333au: I like our community
bawhomp: ram, nonconformist, feline dacat, mise, comradedavo,
bawhomp: me too
Click to expand...
I'm there as well. :smug:
 
@ Rik ... you better not drink to much and tell him stuff :nono: ... or ... or ... I'll give back my sacred goatskin worship kilt :p ... we are the more loyal and started your church which holds you sacred as Creator :worship:

Chatting with Whomp when suddenly Nobody from TNT is chatting with him.

We are sharing intel ... I will post on the other KISS embassy thread as this is not related to the technology swap here Post 14
 
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