Next Stage of Agreements with KISS

[fe3333au]

I agree with Chamnix's points ...

However I am off line and cannot negotiate

Please send KISS the questions ...

I fear that KISS want to trade with Nuts ... why? ... If they want to trade Republic, then we should also be free to trade with TNT for Construction.

Question 4 ... is also illogical ... as has been pointed out ... we need to address this ... and also agree to no swapping until the Great Library threat has been nullified.

Question 6 ... we should ask where the parity is? use their own words against them !!!!

EDIT ... and very important ... we will keep Polytheism from KISS until the Construction has been researched or purchased ... this will insure that KISS do not pull a swifty with other teams (Nuts) in a backstab coupe.

 

[Chamnix]

My first attempt at a letter to KISS:

Dear KISSers:

As you may have heard, the magic box that Feaurius III has been using to communicate with you seems to have been cursed. Since we are a very long way from discovering "Computers", we are not certain when he will be able to have the hex removed. All our remaining team members will make an effort to make themselves available to chat, but if you need to send a message, we ask that you send a copy of any correspondence to our gmail address so that we can be certain that we will receive it timely (as long as there is at least one of us here ).

We are certainly interested in the recent deal you proposed, but there are several points that need clarifying:

First, what is the final deal whereby you divulge the secrets of Republic to MIA? I apologize if much of this was discussed already by you and Feaurius, but we want to be certain there are no misunderstandings.

Second, we understand that you wish MIA to research Construction, and "KISS will pay MIA gold that equates the cost for full research between discovery of Republic and finishing of Construction." I'm afraid you are going to have to dumb this down for us a bit. Our sages do not understand the proposed payment.

Third, you propose that after Republic, then MIA and KISS can trade with the backward barbarian civilizations at will. Does this mean that MIA could trade for Construction, if desired? What effect would that have on the rest of the deal? Admittedly, we do not really understand the point of this proposal. If MIA and KISS are both in the Middle Ages, and Doughnutia and TNT are not, there won't be any available trades except for cash. We believe that it may be better to agree not to trade with them at all, or, if we do, then to split the cash gained equally so that we do not have incentive to underbid each other. We await your thoughts on this point.

Fourth, you propose that MIA research to Education, and that KISS can buy MIA's free tech for half the beaker cost. While we feel this type of agreement makes perfect sense if MIA receives Monotheism as our free tech, it seems detrimental to KISSMIA if we receive Feudalism or Engineering. Our intelligence indicates that Doughnutia may be building the Great Library. MIA has no desire to see that "civilization" receive free knowledge of Feudalism, for example, as they would under your proposal. If you can explain how this method is in the best interests of the Green Alliance, we will be happy to discuss it.

Finally, you propose that upon discovery of Education, MIA and KISS will exchange all techs to be at tech parity. We are concerned that wording the proposal this way gives both teams an incentive to research slowly and gain more techs than they give. In addition, we are not certain what the contigency plan is in the off chance that the Great Library has not been built by the time Education is discovered.

We await your response so we may continue this mutually profitable alliance through the Ages.

Chamnix
MIA President and acting letter-writer

Comments?

EDIT - I think I'll take out the part about the continency plan if the Great Library is not built. It is not that likely and even mentioning it will make KISS even more reluctant to research to Education themselves. We can deal with it later if it comes up.

Dear KISSers:

As you may have heard, the magic box that Feaurius III has been using to communicate with you seems to have been cursed. Since we are a very long way from discovering "Computers", we are not certain when he will be able to have the hex removed. All our remaining team members will make an effort to make themselves available to chat, but if you need to send a message, we ask that you send a copy of any correspondence to our gmail address so that we can be certain that we will receive it timely (as long as there is at least one of us here ).

We are certainly interested in the recent deal you proposed, but there are several points that need clarifying:

First, what is the final deal whereby you divulge the secrets of Republic to MIA? I apologize if much of this was discussed already by you and Feaurius, but we want to be certain there are no misunderstandings.

Second, we understand that you wish MIA to research Construction, and "KISS will pay MIA gold that equates the cost for full research between discovery of Republic and finishing of Construction." I'm afraid you are going to have to dumb this down for us a bit. Our sages do not understand the proposed payment.

Third, you propose that after Republic, then MIA and KISS can trade with the backward barbarian civilizations at will. Does this mean that MIA could trade for Construction, if desired? What effect would that have on the rest of the deal? Admittedly, we do not really understand the point of this proposal. If MIA and KISS are both in the Middle Ages, and Doughnutia and TNT are not, there won't be any available trades except for cash. We believe that it may be better to agree not to trade with them at all, or, if we do, then to split the cash gained equally so that we do not have incentive to underbid each other. We await your thoughts on this point.

Fourth, you propose that MIA research to Education, and that KISS can buy MIA's free tech for half the beaker cost. While we feel this type of agreement makes perfect sense if MIA receives Monotheism as our free tech, it seems detrimental to KISSMIA if we receive Feudalism or Engineering. Our intelligence indicates that Doughnutia may be building the Great Library. MIA has no desire to see that "civilization" receive free knowledge of Feudalism, for example, as they would under your proposal. If you can explain how this method is in the best interests of the Green Alliance, we will be happy to discuss it.

Finally, you propose that upon discovery of Education, MIA and KISS will exchange all techs to be at tech parity. We are concerned that wording the proposal this way gives both teams an incentive to research slowly and gain more techs than they give. However, we agree that we should be at tech parity so the team that researches less should be given the option to buy any excess techs at half the beaker price (our legal departments can work out the exact language, but hopefully you get the idea).

We await your response so we may continue this mutually profitable alliance through the Ages.

Chamnix
MIA President and acting letter-writer

 

[classical_hero]

Excellent.

 

[General_W]

wow - very very nice.



I approve whole-heartedly.

 

[Chamnix]

Well, with pg and fe away temporarily, I think that we have a quorum - I'll send the letter now.

 

[Chamnix]

Received from KISS:

Aloha, we've recieved your questions/suggestions regarding the x-mas treaty. We will respond as soon as we're finished playing with our new toys.

Dagh

 

[General_W]

This just in to our team Mail Box...

Hi there fellow Greenies, too bad fe is off-line but we believe things can be worked out pretty well anyway.

The deal for republic means that MIA sends the techs they have gathered during the time KISS has done research on Republic. Technically we could carry it out so that MIA sends half the bunch on the same turn that KISS discovers Rep., after KISS getting them, we send Rep. and next turn recieve the remaining techs from you guys.

About Construction our proposal is in line with what fe himself suggested in an official mail:

A possible solution is that one team research Construction, while the other team pay an equitable rate to the one who is set on maximum science rate.

We're not sure on how this was ment to work, but one way it could work is that you do the research and we pay for it. If we agree on that, then next step is to agree on a resonable sum. Feel free to make an offer or suggest some other solution.

On trading we feel that now that we finally have the possibility to trade, we do not want our hands tied to our back. It may be that no beneficial trades are possible right now, but when there are we want to be able to consider, and possibly execute, them. We could agree on informing each other on what deals are under consideration. You would of course be free to trade construction if you'd which.

About going for Education we could await the outcome of mother RNG and discuss from there. Fe's suggested MIA should go towards Education because you will get there faster and that the (possible) Great Lib. build warrants speed. We are very intersted in going for feudalism/engineering since we're planning on a "visit" overseas before out GS's are out-dated. But, as said before, we can wait a while with this one.

On swapping techs upon the discovery of Education we're fine with your take on it.

Finally, we ask you to consider in what way MIA could aid in a mission overseas. If you are right about Doughnuts, they would be our first target.

All the Best
Team K.I.S.S.

 

[Chamnix]

I'd say that's mostly positive. I don't think fe3333au wanted to give up Polytheism until Construction was done, but I think we will have to give it to them eventually, so I don't have a problem giving them everything we have for Republic. It's a little disturbing that they felt the need to talk about the mechanics of the trade, but I will just assume their letter-writer isn't familiar with the send without accept option.

I have no problem researching construction (and I think we should probably get started unless we are planning to trade for it). It costs 600 beakers monopoly, but TNT will get there first knocking the price down to 514. Ask for 300 so we make a tidy profit or ask for 257 to be fair? Or something else?

They misunderstood my question about Construction - I wanted to know if we could trade for it, not trade it once we had it, but we still don't know the answer to that.

I think simply informing each other of any proposed trades before they are made is reasonable.

We can stall for now on the Education plan.

Overseas help... hmmm... I'm not sure how to reply to that. We definitely like the idea of double (or triple) teaming Donuts, but how soon?

 

[peter grimes]

Thank the RNG ethers for a positive note from the North!

To figure out the cost of a GPT deal from KISS while we research Construction, I propose a slightly less simple idea: Let's run at 100% science, and have KISS make up the deficit. I have a feeling that will be more expensive to KISS than simply outlaying 250-300 gold. This will lessen their ability to finance upgrades.

Based on the Civassist screenie that GeneralW posted, our costs are 30gpt. How many turns can we conceivably finish COnstruction? 514/78 bpt = 7 turns. Oh. That means that KISS would only spend 210 gold while we do that. Yeah, I guess we should ask for 40 gpt to cover expenses while we run at 100%. Sell them on the idea of getting into the middle ages on turn 89!

 

[General_W]

Ok – letter seems to be mostly positive. That's good!

I would like to suggest that KISS does the Construction research and we pay, however.

The one thing I'm not hearing anyone mention is the downtime we'll have when we convert to Republic. (unless we're delaying that?)

Surely KISS will be faster on getting Construction due to their 1 turn Anarchy.

So I'd suggest paying KISS the 257 for the reasons Chamnix outlined.

 

[Chamnix]

You are probably right that KISS would get there faster, but it is tough to tell. We have a large cash pile that we could use for deficit spending whereas they should not have much. Their military is strong compared to ours, and I suspect they have more workers, and I also think we have more towns (we have more area although they have more citizens), so we might be able to spend more on science.

Also, our extended anarchy may make it to our advantage to do Construction ourselves - a couple towns will need specialists to prevent riots and scientists are better than taxmen.

 

[General_W]

That's fine. I'm not opposed to us doing construction - but I just want to make sure we factor it into our calculations - and that we're up front with KISS so we don't spark tension when our research goes on vacation for our anarchy.

EDIT: and what about that trade with TNT? Is there anyway that could be worked out? I know KISS wasn't clear, but we could always take what they said as a greenlight and go for it?

 

[Chamnix]

I'm not too comfortable with that - I think the problem is that if we trade for Construction then KISS will feel (with some justification) that they shouldn't have to pay us for it. So we essentially save 1/2 the cost of Construction (what it would cost to research ourselves minus the 1/2 that KISS pays us), and TNT gains much more than that (I'm sure we will pay more than that to pry it from them). Having TNT gain is not bad from our point of view, but I'm not sure KISS will agree.

If anyone can catch an idiot for a chat, maybe we can try to clarify (I just checked - none of the names I have for KISS are on right now, but I will leave AIM on as long as I am available).

 

[Chamnix]

Proposed letter to KISS:

Dear KISS:

(Note that the following is not intended as official MIA correspondence because it has not had time to go through the rigorous MIA letter-approval process. I was hoping to catch one of you in a chat to discuss this informally, but I have been unable to, and we would like to get this resolved soon).

To clarify our previous question regarding Construction - we were inquiring how you felt about MIA trading for Construction, not trading it once we have it. We expect TNT to complete it before we do, and we were wondering if KISS thought it might be worth trading for it to speed our entry into the Middle Ages.

Also, some of us have have thinking about the possibility of extending our required time to "end the peace" from 10 turns to a longer period such as 20 turns so we can both attack the other continent more confidently.

Since this is not a formal letter, I do not expect a binding reply - just a knee-jerk reaction from the first couple KISSers who read this to give us an idea whether KISS would consider these ideas or not (essentially the same as would come from a chat).

Thanks.

Chamnix

 

[Chamnix]

That letter is not being sent - I had a very brief chat with Tubby:

Chamnix GA: Howdy
KC Venters: hi there
Chamnix GA: glad I finally caught one of you...
KC Venters: I had to do some wrangling in order to get around the firewall
Chamnix GA: ahhh
KC Venters: whassup?
Chamnix GA: Re - construction...
Chamnix GA: we were curious how you felt about trading for construction from TNT
KC Venters: they have it?
Chamnix GA: not yet, but they will before we can
KC Venters: you still there?
Chamnix GA: yeah
Chamnix GA: something wrong?
KC Venters signed off at 8:02:26 AM.

So I sent him a PM -

Not sure what happened there - here is my transcript:

...

Anyway, I was hoping to talk about how you felt about trading for Construction and also possibly extending our "end the peace" deal from 10 turns to something longer. Hopefully we will connect sometime.

His PM reply:

I guess that I didn't completely get around the firewall . We will have republic on turn 84. I'll try to be online tonight. I'll try to get on AIM again.

Do you have MSN messanger? my login on there is casey.venters@hotmail.com. You'd probably get us better on there. Most all of us on KISS use MSN rather than AIM. A few of us downloaded AIM to talk to Werner (fe3333au).

Tubby

 

[Chamnix]

Some more PMs exchanged between me and Tubby:

I have MSN as well - chamnix@hotmail.com. I'm not as familiar with it, but I will start firing that up as well - I was wondering why it was so hard to catch any KISSers on AIM

Hopefully we will connect later.

I should be home ~ 3PM today. Whomp might be online during the day if he is off. We're "doing" Christmas tonight with my in-laws so I might not be available too long. Is this holding the turn up? If so I can try to call Whomp to see if he can get online and chat with you.

I have to get to work, and I will be unable to chat from there anyway - I won't be home until at least 5PM EST. I don't think we will hold the turn up anyway.

So, if anyone else has the time to chat with a KISSer today, please do. If we are going to research Construction, I would really like to get started on it, but we need to make sure that we will be doing it.

 

[General_W]

I added Tubby to my MSN - so if I see him, I'll ask about Const. and 20 turns before war thing.

 

[peter grimes]

Finally, we ask you to consider in what way MIA could aid in a mission overseas. If you are right about Doughnuts, they would be our first target.

Overseas help... hmmm... I'm not sure how to reply to that. We definitely like the idea of double (or triple) teaming Donuts, but how soon?

I think the natural first step in this talk of war is War Planning. Until there is more intelligence on the layout of Dnut's terrain, there is only so much concrete discussion that can happen.

MIA is in a position to provide KISS with accurate intelligence (not quite maps, though) of Doughnutia. We already have three units scouting, while KISS only has one. Once MIA locates resources, we can tell KISS where to send strike forces.

I see this first phase of our involvement as 'behind a curtain'... DNUT's should not be aware that it is we who are assisting KISS, and we may even have to feign an incident of some sort to keep up appearances that we aren't involved, and are simply a peaceful folk swept up in the tide of History.

KISS has a stronger Military than we do, and I'd like to do everything we can to see that their Military is used on BattleIsle. We should find out if KISS are planning on setting sail immediately after the switch to Republic, or once we're both in the Middle Ages.

 

[Chamnix]

I finally caught a KISSer:

Chamnix GA: Hi there
sixpackholiday: hello cham

Your buddy has a new Buddy Icon. Take a look!
Chamnix GA: Did Tubby mention what we wanted to talk about?

Absent Buddy
sixpackholiday: have you connected with fe?
Chamnix GA: no
Chamnix GA: no news from him at all
sixpackholiday: too bad. wondering how he's doing completely cut off from the MTDG LOL
sixpackholiday: we've had lots of fun
Chamnix GA: we miss him a lot

To Business
sixpackholiday: Tubby made a brief note
Chamnix GA: first, we were wondering what you thought about trading for Construction instead of researcing it
sixpackholiday: oh, right..how'd ya wanna go about it?
Chamnix GA: TNT will have it before we can
sixpackholiday: will tnt get first?
Chamnix GA: lol yeah

Laughing at TNT
sixpackholiday: the mausoleum guys :-D
Chamnix GA: yeah - interesting choice of wonders
sixpackholiday: very intersteng indeed

Trade Details
Chamnix GA: they have asked us a few times what we would offer for Const.
sixpackholiday: and you're thinking?
Chamnix GA: they want Poly to go for Monarchy
Chamnix GA: i'm sure they would want something else too
sixpackholiday: mon seems like a choise for them
Chamnix GA: yeah - i doubt donuts or TNT could afford republic
sixpackholiday: if they don't clean up....no
sixpackholiday: and i don't think they will 4 a while
Chamnix GA: hope not
sixpackholiday:

Trade sounds OK
sixpackholiday: well, there have been less activity during holidays
sixpackholiday: so it hasn't been discussed much
sixpackholiday: personally i see no immediate reason not to
Chamnix GA: do you think poly and lit for Const is reasonable?
sixpackholiday: if they plan on going mon instead of rep....fine for us
sixpackholiday: i'm poor on beaker-math
Chamnix GA: poly -12, lit -10, const-20
sixpackholiday: fair enough
sixpackholiday: some g's maybe
Chamnix GA: we will definitely try
sixpackholiday: if they're so eager they should be willing to
Chamnix GA: but we are afraid donuts may be winning, and we don't want to take too much, lol
sixpackholiday: good point

Donuts vs. TNT
sixpackholiday: donsig seem at ease in turn tracker
sixpackholiday: but we have really no idea on how it's going
Chamnix GA: donuts built a couple towns on the west coast
Chamnix GA: tnt built a tomb
Chamnix GA: doesn't sound good
sixpackholiday: nope
sixpackholiday: looking at their screenies.....
sixpackholiday: at lot of thing seems no good over there
sixpackholiday: curious mm'ing lol

Back to Business
Chamnix GA: so your gut reaction is trading for const is ok?
sixpackholiday: mine is...yes.
Chamnix GA: we will send you the details before it is final
sixpackholiday: that'd be good
Chamnix GA: but we don't want to waste $ researching if we are planning on trading
sixpackholiday: reasonable

Next issue
Chamnix GA: second question...
sixpackholiday: shoot
Chamnix GA: do you think it makes sense to extend our "end the peace" deal from 10 turns to something longer?
sixpackholiday: we could discuss that, yes
sixpackholiday: peace has served us well so far
Chamnix GA: definitely
Chamnix GA: it seems that now that an overseas attack is becoming realistic, 10 turns seems too short
sixpackholiday: you mean us being attacked?
Chamnix GA: either MIA or KISS
sixpackholiday: i don't see that happen in quite a while
Chamnix GA: i don't either
sixpackholiday: they are stalling each other
sixpackholiday: we can improve and grow...
sixpackholiday: it is personal overseas, not buissness

Timeline
Chamnix GA: when do you think you might be ready to attack over there
sixpackholiday: I'd say sometime before we do the education swap and well before they get powder
sixpackholiday: hard to say in turns
Chamnix GA: understood
sixpackholiday: i'd like us to have chiv when going over
Chamnix GA: you prefer knights to GS?
sixpackholiday: nice combo for attacking
sixpackholiday: but I'm not the warmonger on KISS
Chamnix GA: yeah - i wasn't sure the extra expense would be worth it
sixpackholiday: other have far better skills
sixpackholiday: main thing is they don't have muskets and if they don't even have pikes.....gung-ho
sixpackholiday: but we have not troops enough for quite a while
sixpackholiday: still weak to them..
Chamnix GA: and were weak to you, lol
sixpackholiday: yeah, you better watch out lol

Buttering me up
sixpackholiday: you're doing good under the Cham regime
Chamnix GA: lol
sixpackholiday: really nice growth
Chamnix GA: even as pres/turn player, i don't make a lot of decisions
Chamnix GA: domestic decides what to build...
sixpackholiday: it took a while to get that set. fac. going didn't it?
Chamnix GA: defense decides what units to build and where to go...
Chamnix GA: yeah, i guess so

To Republic
sixpackholiday: oh yeah, you have that "ordered" goverment, hehe
Chamnix GA: we need a coup....
sixpackholiday: you'll soon about to revolt anyways
Chamnix GA: yeah - hopefully we'll end up in a "people's Republic" with nice phony elections
sixpackholiday: *that was a wiered sentence*
sixpackholiday: i don't know the exact number of turns but rep is soon in
Chamnix GA: cool
Chamnix GA: we will leave the other continent even further behind...

Back to Construction
sixpackholiday: you think that's why tnt will get constr. before you....the anarchy?
Chamnix GA: they started before us too
sixpackholiday: aha, so they're telling you they do constr.? I wondered about that
sixpackholiday: how would you know?
Chamnix GA: why would they lie?
Chamnix GA: they are trying to trade it
sixpackholiday: not saying they do
sixpackholiday: i suppose nuts will go monarchy too
Chamnix GA: they probably should
Chamnix GA: unit support would kill them in rep
sixpackholiday: yup, and units are what they build (cept for strange wonders)
Chamnix GA: lol
Chamnix GA: my gf is getting impatient for breakfast...

Final Questions
sixpackholiday: have you thought through our reply
Chamnix GA: reply for what
sixpackholiday: you had q's about our "x-mas treaty"
sixpackholiday: i answered some and sent it
sixpackholiday: about 3 days ago
Chamnix GA: right - main q was about trading for const.
Chamnix GA: the others seemed ok
Chamnix GA: table the edu discussion for now
sixpackholiday: yeah i think we better
sixpackholiday: the mechanichs on tech swap?
Chamnix GA: seems ok to me

Conclusion
sixpackholiday: fine...well, we'll await your word on the constr deal
sixpackholiday: then we can write the other stuff up
Chamnix GA: ok - i'll see if someone on our team knows how to put together an official parchment like fe used to
sixpackholiday: give it a try
sixpackholiday: go eat ;-)
Chamnix GA: thanks - see ya later
sixpackholiday: cya

What I think we should do - send them a proposal:

1. As soon as Republic is completed, KISS provides Republic to MIA for Horseback Riding, Polytheism, Currency, Map Making, and Literature.

2. As soon as MIA has obtained Construction, they will provide it to KISS. If MIA spends any money researching Construction or trading for it, KISS will reimburse to MIA 50% of the money spent.

3. MIA and KISS will stay at peace for the foreseeable future. Neither side may break the peace without providing at least 20 turns notice to the other.

I'm not sure they like the extended peace, but I think we want it considering we are weak to them and the longer we go without war, the more it plays into MIA's hands. I think we put it in the treaty so either they accept it (even if they don't really want to), or they specifically reject it, in which case we know KISS is not planning on staying nice.

 

[peter grimes]

Excellent work!

If I have few minutes later on I'll put together a parchment (I'll also make a template that can be used in future instances).

Maybe we should elect 'Dear Leader Chamnix' as the new 'Most Revered Foreign Relations Deputy'?.... After all, he has mentioned several times looking forward to leading us into a new Age under the banner of a People's Republic of MIA

EDIT: I've already done most of the work on a new scroll, but I really have to start working at my real job. I'll finish the scroll later today, and email it to our gmail as well as post it to image shack.