Next Stage of Agreements with KISS

[classical_hero]

The problem with this is that the deal is outside of the accepted 20% discount we give to each other. We need to remove on tech so that it is much more in our favour sicne we have been giving to them the advantage so no it is their eturn to do so. I would remove Curency from the offer because it will make them give us an advantage this time and it will be easily with in the 20% discount. They must suffer the loss of Currency for there slow research of Republic. That is there fault for not researching fast enough to get it down quick enough. I think with the slow research of Republic, KISS have been playing us for fools. We should have requested them to do it much quicke and thus we both would be in a better situation that we are in now. As you can tell, I am not to pleased with the fact that KISS went slow with there research. I also doubt that the used the money for good purposes that will benefit both teams. I believe that KISS have been selfish with this slow go approach.

EDIT. I also think that KISS are getting worried about us since we are playing a much smarter game than what they thought we would be capable of playing.

 

[peter grimes]

I would be willing to forgoe the 20% discount (or lead, depending on how you look at it) if that meant we both could get out of the Ancient Age and Despotism continuing as allies.

Whomp mentioned that they only lost 5 turns researching Republic - that's really not all that much, considering how many beakers it is. I agree with you that KISS have been selfish. But I still think that keeping them as 'best buds' is in our best interest for the near-term.

 

[fe3333au]

I understand your concern ... (and this reply follows from a chat with Classical_Hero as well) ... however I don't share your thoughts ...

Here is an editted Chat Log

classicalhero7: Hello
fe3333au: hi how you?
classicalhero7: Have you read what i said about KISS and the next stage of the alliance?
fe3333au: just posted?
classicalhero7: yes, just before I contacted you
fe3333au: checking now
classicalhero7: tell me what you think once you have read all of it.
fe3333au: ok

Reading about C_H's concern about KISS getting cash
fe3333au: you don't think us doing absolutely no research from now until we get Construction is compensation enough?
classicalhero7: Well they did limited research so the two cancels each other out ... that would mean that they got lots of money as a result
fe3333au: no we get lots of money cos they will have to finish Republic and then also complete construction ... that is maybe 20+ turns
classicalhero7: Well, didn't they get lots of money as a result of going slow with Republic?

Slider at No Science better than Go-Slow
fe3333au: yes but we stopped them by 10+ turns when we said they have to give us Republic before we give MM ... so now we have 13 turns before Republic and then x turns before they complete Construction ... at zero reserch ... they did not have zero research
classicalhero7: but they would have done it at 10% and that would have given them quite a bit of money
fe3333au: which they spent on 3 embassies ...
classicalhero7: but that would not account for all of the money
fe3333au: 150+ gold
classicalhero7: I'm sure they would have made more than that
fe3333au: sure ... but now they have cash in the bank ... we will tripple that ... or even more
classicalhero7: that is because we are commercial

Add Currency into the equation
fe3333au: yes ... and we will have currency by next turn
classicalhero7: and thus we can gain even more money.
fe3333au: when marketplaces are built
classicalhero7: but I would only start to build market places once we have more luxuries.
fe3333au: yes ... we also only give them currency after Construction

Free Tech when science traited team enters new age
classicalhero7: Whatever you do, do not allow them free acces to our free tech

<I was confused... I thought it was first team to get it>

fe3333au: good point ... how would we word that
classicalhero7: POQQ
fe3333au: ?
classicalhero7: Piss Off Quickly and Quietly
fe3333au: he he I thought there was a piss off in there ;-)
classicalhero7: Obviously not quite like that
fe3333au: yes

Classical_Hero supplies answers
fe3333au: so what are the game mechanics ... the first team into the new age gets free tech?
classicalhero7: Generally it is the least costly teach. AFIAK
fe3333au: But is it that only the first team into the new age gets a free tech or is it all of them?
classicalhero7: this only applies to any team that is Scientific
fe3333au: Oh I see ... so we will be the first scientific team into new age ... I recall that KISS are not scientific or are they?

KISS not Scientific
classicalhero7: They are Agr and Exp I think, but definitely not scientific. TNT are scientific though
fe3333au: therefore we will get a free tech ... excellent

TNT also Scientific
classicalhero7: so will TNT, so perhaps it might be in our best interests that we can get both teams into the next age together and share the free techs with each other.
fe3333au: I doubt we can do that ... I don't trust TNT
classicalhero7: They seem to be trustworthy so far toward us.

Alligning with TNT will effect KISS friendship
fe3333au: but not my decision ... so we would have to discuss this concept cos we would basically being telling KISS that our friendship is over ... I don't trust Provo and he has too much influence ... also KISS will be at war with TNT very soon ... I don't want to be seen as a TNT ally
classicalhero7: Not quite, because we are still dealing with KISS but a new age will mean new opportunities. What techs do we have over TNT?
fe3333au: We have heaps of tech lead on TNT ... they only just got Writing, Myst and HBR from us

Options discussed
classicalhero7: We could say that we are not ready for war and thus we will be neutral for the moment and give the impression that we are not that friendly with KISS as some people might think
fe3333au: I think keeping secret about every deal is important ... but KISS has and still is our best friend
classicalhero7: Impresssions can be used for our advantage ... I know that

How KISS friendship has benefited MIA
fe3333au: yes ... so I am using TNT and Nuts to give us the advantage, but at the same time retaining our agreement with KISS .. this way KISS also benefit from our dealings ... and will continue to share intel ... the only reason we can get good deals is that we share info with KISS
classicalhero7: I am not saying that we give up our friendship with KISS, but we need to be able to explore other options at the same time

Other options ... leaning more towards TNT ??
fe3333au: sure ... but I think trying to take TNT into new age with us ... instead of KISS is not the way to do it
classicalhero7: Obviously we do not gift TNT any techs just to get a possible free tech, that would be crazy, but if TNT can get to the MA close to us, then it would be a good option to use, but we need to see if that is even possible, since TNT are far behind

I can't see how this can be discretely accomplished
fe3333au: How will they get to catch up without KISS knowing?

fe3333au: I will also clean this chat up a lot and post it on the thread cos you raised some good points which others may agree with or have not even thought about
classicalhero7: thanks

These are the bonuses I see in the proposed Deal of the Century.

1. MIA will not need to research anything until we get Construction from KISS ... this I feel is more than enough compensation for being slighted by their go-slow on Republic ... since we will be spending NOTHING on science.

2. The resulting healthy MIA treasury will be wonderfully overflowing to the brim, just ready for the new government where we must pay gold to rush things

3. We will also have the advantage of having Currency from now until KISS give us Construction.

4. We are the first scientific team to enter new age and therefore will a free tech

5. It will also give us time, perhaps time enough to change governments prior to entering the next technology age.

I want to send the presentation off soon ...

EDIT ... @ Chamnix - the way I have written the letter to KISS tells them everything ... I have added the cost which informs KISS what has been traded to get the resulting tech.

 

[Chamnix]

I agree with Fe3333au that our having 25+ turns of no research is more than sufficient compensation for KISS' delaying Republic by about 5 turns. I think this is going to be hard enough to sell as it is, and we shouldn't push it - we still want to be friends with KISS for a little while...

@fe3333au - just to clarify... as classical_hero said, all scientific civs get a free tech on entering the Middle Ages - we will get one and TNT will get one, regardless of who enters first.

classical_hero is definitely right that KISS is getting nervous...

 

[peter grimes]

I think it is imperative that we remain The Green Alliance for as long as possible. We are blisteringly ahead of the other continent in terms of settlement, economy, and research. This has only been possible because of the mutual trust and goodwill our two teams have worked so hard to grow.

I think we should make every effort to keep this relationship into the next age, and maybe even beyond. I think back to their original proposal: Remain allies until KISS and MIA are the only remaining teams. We didn't trust them at the time and didn't want our hands tied in diplomatic manouvers, but I have been thinking the original proposal is the best way for us to get a space-race victory. Thus, we should always proceed with KISS in a manner that keeps them liking us more than any other team.

If we conduct a trade with TNT we must make KISS understand how the trade benefits KISSMIA. Anything less has the possibility of engendering mistrust and speculation. Those conditions will poison our chances of a Space Race victory. All trades with TNT must be conducted in order to advance two things, in this order:
1.Our Space Race
2. KISSMIA eliminating the other teams.

We cannot afford to let petty squabbles cloud our vision of how we want our future game to proceed. Whomp understands this, Chamnix understands this.

To end this rambling post: If KISS is getting nervous, that tells me that we are doing something wrong. We need to identify what we're screwing up, and FIX IT.

 

[fe3333au]

Since the actives have seen the proposed corespondence ... and did not indicate any changes were necessary I will now send it as it stands to KISS mail.

The only change was the soundtrack ... instead of The Sting ... which could be misconstued :shakehead: ...

I have changed background tape to Tubular Bells by Mike Oldfield :coool: ... this was also the theme for the Exorcist.

 

[fe3333au]

I have just sent this ...

Dear KISS idiots

I'd like to add yet more issues to take you away from the toils of Empire micro management ... this is incorporating the already proposed technology trades ... so strap in and sit back ... and enjoy the show

<Darkness and Silence>

Cue Spot Light on Presenter ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... Go

Laaaadies and Gentlemeeeeen !!!

Teeeeeam MIA ... Preeeesntzzzz !!!​

Cue Fanfare ... 3 ... 2 ...

Behind the Fanfare Curtain
"Anyway Hans I tell her that what I have is very big, the biggest in the village"
"What did she say to that?"
"Jakob, she did not believe me. So I had to her show my..."
"Damn it all ... Quick !!! ... We must NOW loudly Blow !!!"

TOOO - TA - TOOOO - TA - TOOOOOO​

"Ha Jakob, almost missed the cue ..."
"Shhhhhh !!!"

The Deeeeal of the Centurrrrrrrrry !!!!​

Cue Background Muzak ... 3 ... 2 ...

<Tubular Bells (The Exorcist) Sound Track>

The Background ...

Through the sheer brilliance and deviousness of MIA's Department of Barter and Trade, we have managed to procure for the Green Alliance ...

ALL of the technology required for us the complete the Ancient Age !!!​

Dramatic Pause ending on 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... Go

This through the exchange of minimal technology to the competing Battle Islander factions.

OK ... Here is how it works ... ​

Cue Smart Money ... ending in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... Go

Part 1. KISS presents MIA the knowledge of Republic​

KISS give Republic in return for MIA supplying Literature, Map Making and Mathematics.

>Trade Value Tally ...
MIA goods = 10(300) + 12(360) + 8(240) = 30(900)
KISS goods = 28(840)

Part 2. The Green Cabal livessss onnnn ... in Secret​

MIA will send the Horseback Riding and then later Polytheism in an intermittent random pattern so as not to spread fuel to an already paranoid environment abroad.

>Trade Value Tally ...
MIA goods = 30(900) + 5(150) + 12(360) = 47(1410)
KISS goods = 28(840)

>The Cost ...
Nuts get Literature = 10(300)

Part 3. and then MIA present the Fiiiiinal Countdownnnnn​

And then the coupe de gras ... when KISS supplies Construction, MIA will return with the knowledge of Currency.

>Trade Value Tally ...
MIA goods = 47(1410) + 16(480) = 63(1890)
KISS goods = 28(840) + 20(600) = 48(1440)

>The Cost ...
TNT get Writing, Mysticism and Horseback Riding
= 8(240) + 4(120) + 5(150) = 17(510)

How would you like to join hands with us and hand in hand, together drive the Green Alliance into the next Age together ...​

Cue Big Men in Funny Little Cars

"Brrrrrmmm Brummmm"
"Peddle Faster"
"Brrrrrrmmmmm"

Loooong Live theeeee Alliance ... Greeeen Forrrreverrrr !!!!
​

We will await your thoughts and then our scribes will prepare a document.

We remind you that this is TOP SECRET !!!!


Good fortune to you

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

Foreign Staff ... Kentharu and Classical_Hero are also at your service.

 

[peter grimes]

You've outdone yourself this time, Fe

 

[fe3333au]

I stayed awake until mid AM ... but didn't see any KISS araound on AIM ... then I received this e-mail from Daghie

Lovely looking proposal Fe! I guess we'll have to give this some thinking over and then come back. Maybe it needs some "polishing", heh.
//Daghie

So it has been posted in the KISS thread ... hopefully will catch up with someone before the turn comes ... either way we have informed KISS and therefore fullfilled our duty to the Alliance

When the turn does come back, we shall agree to the deal and add Currency to the bank

Damn even flued, tired and hay fevered ... I've still got it

 

[fe3333au]

Finally caught one of them ... spoke to Tubby

Not as well as I liked but at least we have begun the process ...

Wasn't sure how to edit ... cos Tubby and I were focused on different issue and then swapping focus to answer ... almost juggling during the chat ... here goes

Debate of Concerns

KC Venters: are you still up?
fe3333au: yes just
KC Venters: are you able to talk?
fe3333au: yes
KC Venters: or too sleepy?
fe3333au: if it gets heavy I'll just say so ... shoot
KC Venters: ok....

To Business
KC Venters: so if I understand the fanfare correctly
fe3333au: he he he
KC Venters: republic for Lit, MM, & MAth
fe3333au: yes

Warning !!! ... Mega Microscopic Analytical approach ... change focus !!!
fe3333au: But thats not how to look at it ... look at the over all ... first swap is as you say ... then followed intermittent by Poly and HBR just to make it less suspect and then finally for construction we give currency
KC Venters: ok ... I got all that.

Focus on the trading deals
KC Venters: What is the deal with Nuts get Literature
fe3333au: Poly for lit
KC Venters: who gives the nuts Lit?
fe3333au: we do
KC Venters: why?
fe3333au: so we get poly
KC Venters: why is TNT getting Writing, Myst, & hbr?
fe3333au: for currency ... and we want the war to last ... tnt will get steam rolled

The expected - How come we have to research while you sit back and get cash - whine
KC Venters: so you guys don't research currency but expect us to trade Constr. for it?
fe3333au: someone has to

Expressions of respective preceptions
fe3333au: and you have beaten us to punch with other stuff ... so our turn
KC Venters: I'm concerned as are others that you guys are trading up a storm and sticking us with the research

Tubby Bites
KC Venters: we HAVE NOT beaten anyone to the punch
fe3333au: and we have been reasearching max so have only 10gp ... sloww reasearch
KC Venters: those 4-5 turns of min research only cost that 4-5 turns
fe3333au: and getting to the luxes
KC Venters: we have been forbidden to trade since we are researching Republic
KC Venters: not our fault ... on the luxses ... there's plenty for everyone
fe3333au: sure
KC Venters: so don't bring it up if it is a non-issue

<Ouch ! ... maybe shouldn't have brought Luxes up ... but then again, why the F not>

Look at the numbers ... very much good deal for KISS
fe3333au: but big picture you get better tech deal
KC Venters: no way
fe3333au: why not?

This is unexpected !!!
KC Venters: We are currently soliciting deals with the Nuts and TNT for REpublic
KC Venters: your free MA tech is also a concern of ours

The brokering deals for Republic spinout issue
fe3333au: are you ... thats interesting ... whomp said that you would only be trading it with us
KC Venters: nothing is in writing yet

The SGL (Scientific Great Leader) ... IMHO a non-issue ... but lets talk traits then
fe3333au: so is your ag trait
fe3333au: so you expect us to just watch you out expand and then tie our hands with tech ?

Getting a bit heated and swapping conversations ... almost parry thrust
KC Venters: when did Whomp say that we were only trading it with you?
fe3333au: many many times

KC Venters: you expect us to what you out-tech us and sit back and take it?
fe3333au: in fact every time it has come up in conversation

We are not out-teching we are sharing !!!
fe3333au: but we are giveing you 63 levels of tech for 48
KC Venters: You guys have had more chances for a SGL ... what's that worth?

Tubby on about SGL issue while I focus on KISS out settlering us
fe3333au: you are not giving us any cities
fe3333au: lucky at best <chance to get SGL >

Deep breath ... Chillin Out
KC Venters: I'm just expressing some concerns that are coming from our team

My point was to be SGL is rare so not an issue ... foolish I analogied with tech from a goody hut
fe3333au: how many goody huts have you popped a tech from instead of barbs? ... is the same chance of getting SGL
KC Venters: 1

<Wrong approach with a man intimate with the game engine>

KC Venters: barbs pop up 65% of the time on Emperor ... if you plant a city next to them then the chance drops to 0% ... rules of the game you should know

<Here comes the ACTUAL probability >

KC Venters: as a SCI civ you have a 5% everytime you are first to discover a tech

< blah blah Missing the Point !!! >

KC Venters: how many have you researched first?
fe3333au: ok ... my point is SGL is a very very rare thing ... and if we get it ... well good luck to us ... it is not an issue
KC Venters: it is to us

Calming down now
KC Venters: as the ag trait is to you
fe3333au: so that cancels out ... and ag does not rely on random factors ... probability

KISS advantage is always on ... science trait different
fe3333au: ag is constant
KC Venters: so is your free tech

Yeah Yeah ... But MIA doesn't benefit from KISS ag trait
KC Venters: which could be more powerful
fe3333au: so our traits are of concerns to both parties ... but we just have to get over it
KC Venters: we picked our civs for reasons that were important to each of us
fe3333au: free tech means that you have access to it through our favoured nation status
KC Venters: so yes we have to get over it

Break the Ice
fe3333au: OT ... seems that TNT didn't pick the correct team LOL
KC Venters: hahaha
fe3333au: according to Provo comment

Back to discussion
fe3333au: Both teams have traits which we are using ... but the big difference is that Green Alliance means that benefits are passed on
KC Venters: I'm going to have to run.... my daughter needs to wathcha a movie

Next Step
fe3333au: so what do we do have a big chat or just get over it and accept that we are both playing to win ... however KISS and MIA play fair and help each other?
KC Venters: we prolly need a big chat later

Well I say ... we are in a position where we finally out played them ... so they will have to get over it ... End result is that KISS get a better technology deal and that Battle Islanders are kept away from Map Making and also Republic ... and KISS and MIS enter the new age with exactly the same techs.

This will be my main argument and all that stuff about free techs and SGL is not the issue ... the agricultural trait bonus is always on and constant ... and MIA get no benefit from that while KISS ultimately benefit from our science trait.

 

[Chamnix]

Well, Tubby Rower has been one of the more hotheaded KISSers throughout. Maybe Whomp will be more amenable to the deal, but we knew this was going to be a tough sell. Here's what I suggest:

First, they need to forget the SGLs. SGLs are very valuable if you get one. We didn't. If they think a "chance" at an SGL is so valuable, then we are doing them a favor by letting them research Construction first - obviously that's absurd.

Second, Literature for Polytheism with Donuts is a done deal. We will give KISS Polytheism. They should under no circumstances give up anything for Polytheism - it makes no sense.

Third, the Currency deal is not a done deal yet - we obviously don't have KISS' approval, and AFAIK we don't even know if TNT approved it. However, it is the minimum we can reasonably give up for Currency, so unless they are stupidly planning on outbidding us again, they should let this deal go ahead.

Fourth, they are (justifiably) concerned that we are not going to research for a while, and they had limited trading opportunities. Solution - they can convince a Battle Islander to research Construction and trade them for it (possibly giving Republic). I don't think Battle Islander's stand to benefit much from Republic anyway, and that way KISS has something to trade. KISS also gets a research break (if they finish Republic soon....). I would say that KISS should get gold in a Construction for Republic deal - if they do, then the first 12 should be ours since we spent that getting techs that we later gave to KISS; the rest really should be shared equally (I don't really care about the gold, but if you can convince KISS, the better off we are).

Fifth, our free tech is also a non-issue. We gained nothing (except less space) from their being agricultural. They are also religious - I somehow doubt they are willing to go through 8 turns of anarchy for the sake of being "fair" with us. We will be happy to trade our free tech under MFN once they can pay for it.

 

[fe3333au]

Just woke up ... and chated to Daghie

I was open and direct ... I liked this one better.

I did leave my computer on ... and when I was crashed in bed ... Whomp tried to chat ... I hate beeing sick

Computer On ... and Bang
sixpackholiday: Hi Pyro man
fe3333au: hi
sixpackholiday: wassup?
fe3333au: very fluey
sixpackholiday: sick?
fe3333au: yes
sixpackholiday: too bad ... get well

Better to talk business
fe3333au: had a chat to Tubby ... have you seen the transcript?
sixpackholiday: yes i have ... i have some personal thoughts on that ... what other thoughts can you have lol
fe3333au: lol

fe3333au: do tell
sixpackholiday: once upon a time
sixpackholiday: ...
fe3333au: as long as happy ever after

Getting serious
sixpackholiday: i had the feeling that by doing mutual research ... we could leave others behind ... act like one nation ... on double research speed ... by keeping techs among ourselves they would have to do all by themselves ... or co-op ... which they obviously couldn't
fe3333au: we too think this

< The mutual research speed reference cracked me up ... also One Nation ... however one of the heads in this two-headed beast is sick of not getting to eat first >

Continued
sixpackholiday: it would be a safe way to leave them in the dust ... and attack when WE had chiv/powder ... and the were still doing, say, currency

We put spanner in that one ... sorry for not asking first Massa Bwana ... but then again havn't KISS done this to us before ????
sixpackholiday: that has gone all out the window ... we are helping them to keep up
fe3333au: they already have currency
sixpackholiday: both of us ... by trading with them

OK Currency was bad example
sixpackholiday: replace currency with optional AA tech ... point is they still be in AA while we are MA
fe3333au: yes ... my deal ensures this ... leaves them way behind

TNT is an REAL issue in this point methinks
sixpackholiday: but tnt gets a lot of techs
fe3333au: got 3 minor ones NOT worth much
sixpackholiday: i think it would be more efficient if we stopped trading overseas all in all ...

< Philosophers can always see the other point >

sixpackholiday: although i see the point in trying to get some of their gold ... but that could make us both a bit greedy perhaps

Enough don't call MIA greedy !!!
fe3333au: you benefit more than us with my deal ... and the GSL issue is bull****
sixpackholiday: easy now, we voted for no sgl's ... we don't like em at all ... but since they're in they have to be counted as a factor
fe3333au: irrelivant ... Tubby's harping about GSL is a chance at best ... all civs have that chance also ... but your benefit with Ag is not chance it is always there
sixpackholiday: correct
fe3333au: so irrelivant to the deal I proposed

And another thing about exclusivity to Republic
fe3333au: Tubby also mentioned that KISS were planning to trade Republic to others as well
sixpackholiday: we're openly discussing all possibilities, thet's all. I think you're doing the same ... weighing pros and cons

< missed these Magic Words ... Daghie being a soothing balm >

sixpackholiday: i'm very much for resolving any issues btw us

< I continue my stream of consciouness babble >

fe3333au: with our proposed deal ... that is last trade and then we go boldly and fast into new age

< I suspect ... the Real issue ??? >

fe3333au: I think Tubby faction was pissed about us taking a rest while you research construction ... that is the issue
sixpackholiday: you proposal is in no way discarded you know
fe3333au: I felt from Tubby it had been

Research turned to 10% NOT the issue ... but shows a symptom
sixpackholiday: we've said we're willing to compensate for the slow burn which in fact made only 4-5 turns short ... we've talked about the pics ... or some gold
fe3333au: yes but we have been fast tracking research and only have 10 gold left atm
sixpackholiday: then we both should go full speed
fe3333au: so we need to get cash researvs up (as you have)

< Why we need cash ... we don't want embassies built by others !!! >

fe3333au: and also we want to establish embassies
sixpackholiday: understood
fe3333au: very expensive

Sharing thoughts about last chat
fe3333au: Tubby was very paranoid ... didn't like it
sixpackholiday: i only think he wants to get as good deal as we can get, no paranoia

< I then added that I'm sick is reason for my brick subtle approach to diplomacy atm >

sixpackholiday: all talks are about how the alliance should look like, not about cancelling it
fe3333au: Yes but our deal is a good deal for you and for us ... Tubby wants for KISS to get more benefits
sixpackholiday: thumbs up for Tubby LOL
fe3333au: but you have beaten us in embassies and other things ... MIA is the better (but only just) in this deal ... doesn't mean it is bad deal
sixpackholiday: seriously, i'm conviced we both have seen the benefits

Lets stay calm ... Ohmmmmmmm
sixpackholiday: and really want this co-op to continue 4 a while ... but let's be patient with each other and allow us to do some haggling
fe3333au: us too ... imagine us both in republic and middle ages ... speeding ahead

Military thoughts
fe3333au: we have to think about the next stage as well .. the battles with TNT and Nuts
sixpackholiday: in the end we'll work something out

< No we discuss it now Mr. Mister !!! >

fe3333au: you obviously will tackle TNT ... but Nuts are tougher ... and they are our direct neighbours
sixpackholiday: when we get chiv/powder we hit
fe3333au: so we have to coordinate

Interim measures
fe3333au: and make sure TNT isn't too weak and that Nuts walk over them
sixpackholiday: i'm no military expert, but ... i'm thinking of joining one side ... together, MIA/KISS

< here it comes ... 3 onto 1 in favour of KISS >

sixpackholiday: say, Nuts, then we sail towards TNT coast and hit them from N ... while Nuts are coming from S.

< Sure Sure ... and then >

sixpackholiday: When TNT are gone we're in place to keep rolling ... southward bound
fe3333au: Sure and that is very beneficual to KISS ... Nuts is our direct neighbour and tough ...
sixpackholiday: Nuts have said they don't mind losing game as long as TNT goes first

Good sentiments shared all round
fe3333au: lol ... I think everyone want that ... maybe even some of Provo's teammates
sixpackholiday: now you're being paranoid, take an aspirin
fe3333au:

sixpackholiday: i guess we will decide upon the current situation
fe3333au: yes

Seeing our POV
sixpackholiday: but yes, Nuts look stronget ATM

< asking about no-one being on AIM lately led to talk of seasonal plans in RL >

sixpackholiday: about the deal, i think we both are a bit paranoid because we want to win in the end ... and that's cool
fe3333au: sure but this is the best deal ... Tubby was talking about trading republic to everyone ... that is very bad strategy
sixpackholiday: but i will work hard to get a decent agreement in effect
fe3333au: cool ... thanks my friend

Sentiment to put things into prospective
fe3333au: and botom line ... I am enjoying the game ...
sixpackholiday: yes, very much lol ...
fe3333au: especially diplomacy ;-)
sixpackholiday: yeah, we'll have a good laugh when the treads open
fe3333au: Whatever happens I think I gave you guys a laufg with the proposal

< Added Special inserts for Daghie >
fe3333au: did you get the references ... I put 2 DK in there fore you
sixpackholiday: it was way cool especially the Dead Kennedys mini cars
fe3333au: the 4 dollars shirts also ... very young Jello and band
sixpackholiday: old punks never die
fe3333au: exactly
sixpackholiday: ok, cya doode
fe3333au: cya

EDIT ... just read Chamnix's comments

Totally agree ... especially the Religious trait benefit ... good ammo for future talks.

I am taking hard line ... I do NOT want anything watered down ... we shall see ...

Hmmmm ... one fall back option I would agree to is this ...

It is for us to research Construction, commissioned and paid by KISS at an agreed upon rate of X gold per turn ... this to get to Construction quicker with our superior research ability.

Maybe that will be cool and agreeable to KISS ... BUT I suggest that MIA research as a +1 gold per turn level as well ... Lets us Take No Prisoners

I honestly feel we are in a very good position in this debate ... KISS has a damaged pride and didn't expect us to be acting soo strongly ... bad luck for them ... get used to it boyz

EDIT ... What is the worst case scenario ??? ... we can research Republic now and still match them !!!

 

[Chamnix]

I agree the object was to leave the other continent behind. Under the proposal (even assuming the worst case that KISS trades Republic to Donuts for Construction), KISS and MIA are both in the Middle Ages, and

Donuts lack: Map Making and Currency.
TNT lacks: Philosophy, Code of Laws, Map Making, Literature, Polytheism, and Republic.

We are leaving Battle Island behind. It would be even better if KISS gets Construction from TNT (which is more likely anyway since TNT is probably researching it now) for something like Polytheism and Code of Laws.

I think KISS is more likely to agree to get Battle Island to research Construction than to pay us to do it...

 

[peter grimes]

Yes, we are in a good situation. We may want to propose no more trading with the BattleIslanders after this round (which will put KISSMIA into the Middle Ages).

Then one of us should beeline to Education, (maybe have the other team go slower and help out with gold) nullifying any Great Library shenanigans. AFter that, go for Military techs and get ready to whack the BattleIslanders.

Once we're in the Middle Ages I don't really see any need to explain ourselves to the BattleIslanders, so we KISS and MIA can trade techs amongst ourselves all we want. TNT and DNUTs will realize what's been going on, but it won't do them any good. It'll be too late.

 

[Chamnix]

I don't think there is anything wrong with trading to Battle Islanders in general, as long as we do not overpay, and as long as KISSMIA share and don't trade for the same techs. For example, if we trade Literature for Polytheism, then KISS trades Map Making for Polytheism, then we have a problem.

On the other hand, if we pay a fair price for Currency, and KISS pays a fair price for Construction, then KISS and MIA swap, then there is nothing wrong, especially if we manage to pay with the same techs (i.e. we trade Literature for Currency from TNT, KISS trades Literature for Construction from Donuts).

 

[peter grimes]

The only reason I'm 'against' trades with BI's is that the more of a research gap there is between KISSMIA and the others, the easier our conquest will be.

The others are useful to help KISSMIA get out the the Ancient Age, but after that I can't see them being of any help at all (research-wise)

I think the above post by Chamnix (#35) should be sent to KISS. I'm sure they are thinking the same thing, but it might be good for them to hear it again.

 

[fe3333au]

Finally chat with Whomp

The Cast
Skippyshutt has entered the room.
bawhomp has entered the room.

<hello and banter>

bawhomp: fe you avoiding me?
fe3333au: no I thought you were me ... even had a bath
bawhomp: no love
fe3333au: no shave though thought you might like the rugged look
Skippyshutt: u had a bath for whomp? that worries me
fe3333au: I wanted to have one with him but Holly said NO
bawhomp: he lives in the wilderness bro
fe3333au: Had a spin out the other day

< lightning storm story ... yawn for you ... still exciting for me >

To Business
fe3333au: So whomp can we talk business?
bawhomp: Yes sir
fe3333au: good
bawhomp: First let me say I feel my words were taken out of context
fe3333au: Now our proposal ... I thought you guys would be really happy about it ... didn't expect such a reaction as I got
Skippyshutt: WTH happened?
bawhomp: I think the concern is we would not be at tech parity
fe3333au: I think real reason is that you don't like us waiting around getting big bank account while you have to research ... am I correct
bawhomp: no but it didn't sound like we'd be getting all the techs already researched
Skippyshutt: brb, need to go read up
fe3333au: yes you would get all of them
bawhomp: that's good
fe3333au: we eneter the new age together ... equal in tech
bawhomp: with your MA tech?

< ooops didn't pick up on that ... will address later after we discuss >

fe3333au: poly ... which we were going to aquire from Nuts ... but they popped it ... so we will be reaserching it now
bawhomp: huh?
fe3333au: cos we will not trade any of the other techs like MM with them to get it
bawhomp: they popped poly?
fe3333au: no they popped Lit ... they are reasearching Poly
bawhomp: ok

Bit confused Whomp
bawhomp: are you researching lit?
fe3333au: No we got Lit
bawhomp: and map making?
fe3333au: we are about to pop our reamianing huts (2) ... so are changing to Republic and see if we get lucky with popping a tech ... then we will change to Poly
bawhomp: but they are researching poly ... why not currency?
fe3333au: yes ... but we don't want either of the Battle Islanders to get too far advanced
fe3333au: We got last turn

The TNT Deal
bawhomp: How?
fe3333au: TNT swapeed for Writing, Myst and HBR
bawhomp: with who?
fe3333au: TNT
bawhomp: how did they get writing?
fe3333au: It was all in the proposal
bawhomp: with you?
fe3333au: We traded Writing, HBR and Myst to TNT in return for them giving us Currency
bawhomp: ............

< dramatic pause ... and boy was it pregnant, let me tell you that >

fe3333au: happened turn 73
bawhomp: so how do we fit into all this?
fe3333au: what you mean ... we together end up in middle ages faster and together and then leave the others behind
bawhomp: so what are we down now? ... hbr ... currency ... map ... lit

Ummm ... it's all there in Black and White
fe3333au: have you read my proposal
bawhomp: yes
fe3333au: I have outlined proposed tech swapping schedule

1. KISS give Republic in return for MIA supplying Literature, Map Making and Mathematics
2. MIA will send the Horseback Riding and then later Polytheism in an intermittent random pattern so as not to spread fuel to an already paranoid environment abroad

bawhomp: currency and HBR?

3. And then the coupe de gras ... when KISS supplies Construction, MIA will return with the knowledge of Currency.

Finally Feedback
bawhomp: too late
fe3333au: ok ... thats what I wanted feedback for
bawhomp: we'd rather have things we can use ... hbr we don't need

< Yes craving feedback ... but only got silence and then ... >

fe3333au: but I was just getting agro vibes from Tubby
bawhomp: i think the feeling is we've been told to shut up and not trade and we were not going to be at parity
fe3333au: no problems .. but either way we will give HBR before we enter the next age
bawhomp: yes but it's the least needed tech

KISS concerns finally outlined ... which I was waiting for
bawhomp:
1. lit for libs
2. currency for markets
3. map making for boats

Tubby's disturbing talk addressed
fe3333au: Tubby said that you were going to trade Republic for outstanding techs to Battle Isdlanders
bawhomp: If we weren't at tech parity we have to
fe3333au: I sent the proposal and then got silence ... when I touched base got agro
bawhomp: we didn't see all techs in the proposal

< ummm ... missed that one whomp ... so I continued ... >

fe3333au: and then saying that you were going to trade with Battle Islanders anyway ... this was a surprise ... cos you said you only trade with us
bawhomp: Only if we are not at tech parity
fe3333au: and tubby said Nothing in Writing
bawhomp: he was being defensive
fe3333au: then he goes on about unfair that we have a slight chance of getting a SGL
bawhomp: it's not that important
fe3333au: Why did you guys not contact me or MIA through writing or PM or chat
bawhomp: it's slight but not that important
fe3333au: silence was unexpected
bawhomp: I was looking for you

Trait comparison
fe3333au: our trait is a chance in happening ... your trait is constant ... and then Religion also has a big benefit when is comes to govt change
bawhomp: commercial is very powerful ... traits are traits
fe3333au: are you going to have a period of anarchy to compensate

< Rhetorical >

fe3333au: No of course not
bawhomp: religion is the least attractive
fe3333au: so why bring up SGL then
bawhomp: Don't get hot he was protecting our interests.
fe3333au: anyway ... in my defence I was very very allergied and grumpy at the time of that conversation
bawhomp: Both of you were
fe3333au: so I may have come across as heavy
bawhomp: Both seem aggressive

When did the relationship start to sour ... hmmm
fe3333au: Bottom line ... we (well me personally) felt slighted that you embassied us without warning
bawhomp: As well as us on the tech trade with tnt
fe3333au: that was not kosha ... and trust level went down ...

< Don't start on TNT trading issue >
fe3333au: the TNT was outlined in proposal ... i would have expected that you get back to us and say no ... anyway what done is done

Battle Island techs
fe3333au: We both don't want Battle Island to get too tough
bawhomp: they are gaining a lot of techs
fe3333au: KISSMIA have only 2 outstanding techs to research ... after you complete Republic

No surprise here
bawhomp: Donut wants to trade lit and poly for republic. lol
fe3333au: of course they do ... They are trying to play au against each other (as we both would play it)
bawhomp: i saw it and played along with it
fe3333au: But we don't want Nuts to get anymore techs ... agreed ... after all they are our neighbors
bawhomp: played really dumb


TNT Update
fe3333au: TNT won the last battle
bawhomp: really? ... what have you heard? ... i'm sure they're pre building

< Great Library Threat >
bawhomp: we don't want tnt to get glib
fe3333au: Sure so we decided not to trade Lit

< Our responce to TNT attempt to restrict Currency trade >
fe3333au: They sent currency for the 3 techs ... and then after sent a caveat about not trading it on ... we had just accepted and sent save to you ... so we have said bad luck guys ... too late

<important to stress this point >
fe3333au: we would not have traded if that was imposed before the deal was done ... cos we will give to you

A Matter of Timing ... just tell us what you want
bawhomp: when can we get these techs? i've let donut know we were putting republic out to bid
fe3333au: Whomp, as mentioned after you get republic ... the 2 outstanding techs is Construction and Poly ... which would you prefer us to research?
fe3333au: We prefer to do poly

< Tell us what you want !!! .... what best for you ?!? >
fe3333au: What is your best scenario to swap ... the techs ... I've outlined a potential delivery date ... I thought it would have been a bit suss if you all of a sudden in one turn got them all

Finally the what KISS want Feedback
bawhomp: well i'd like lit, maps and currency and we can explain it as a trade for republic
fe3333au: I see no problem

and later research for new age
fe3333au: and you will reasearch construction
bawhomp: i think if we research construction and you poly then we can research the most expensive MA tech in exchange for yours
fe3333au: what if one of us goes for Education

Counter Great Library
fe3333au: we want to counter the Great Library threat
bawhomp: it depends on your free tech
fe3333au: yes ... i only got reminded about that one recently
bawhomp: we may not be able to avoid the Glib issue
fe3333au: also saved 2 huts for popping in mddle ages ... but was told only ancient techs come from huts
bawhomp: barbs like crazy
fe3333au: We can rush quickly for it ...
bawhomp: not really it's 3 techs
fe3333au: But Great Library was a threat either way ... and what we must do is make sure aggro levels are always maintained between the two

Research rate ... interesting comment :hmmm:
fe3333au: We are faster so maybe it could be us to go for it
bawhomp: I think we are faster but if you prefer

Quick Answer me this !!
fe3333au: Do you see Green Alliance going into middle ages ... I do
bawhomp: yes

< So back to research question >
fe3333au: OK ... so who ever faster will go for Education

Whomp still on my snap question
bawhomp: the confusion to me was it didn't look like tech parity
fe3333au: I was looking at the beaker value ... and was going for a one upmanship ... just as you have done to us ...
bawhomp: we can send the pictures if you'd like
fe3333au: I'd like that .. but only if you want

Screenie Capital Shots was not really the issue
fe3333au: I have been using that as an example ... but the main issue (for me) was not the fact that you did embassies
bawhomp: ok that's fine i'll send them
fe3333au: it was that you placed one one us ... without warning
bawhomp: it was done without consideration to who
fe3333au: and the only reason you could was that you were slooow research 10%
bawhomp: Bede saw cash and established them
fe3333au: while we were researching at deficit
bawhomp: but research on republic allows for that

< missed that bit about Republic allows 10% research rate >

fe3333au: I understand ... but that for me was a trust breaker
bawhomp: that's unfortunate you feel that way
fe3333au: Hence my proposal ... which in the big picture only ment that we had a period of grace to get cash researves up ... ultimately we would both have gotten ALL techs

Reverse it back onto Whomp
fe3333au: How would you have reacted
Skippyshutt: more dirinkng
bawhomp: an embassy is not an issue for me
Skippyshutt: more drinking
fe3333au: LOL
fe3333au: LOL
fe3333au: good one skippy
fe3333au: Whomp how would you have reacted
bawhomp: i have no issues withs someone establishing an embassy
fe3333au: The propsal was a draft as I mentioned but I never got any feedback

Fishing for intel exchange
fe3333au: Can we trade screenies of city production?
bawhomp: i don't know ... F1?
fe3333au: when we can ... I would like your capital
bawhomp: I don't think we'd have any issue with that

Very eager
bawhomp: I'll check do you want it next turn?
fe3333au: that for me is good faith ... mind you if you don't that is no big deal either ... ... I just gotta try old chap

< Strictly not MIA official stance >
fe3333au: The embassy swap and capital picture is not a deal breaking issue as far as MIA are concerned ... so I will leave it upto you
bawhomp: ok i don't think giving our picture and the other two are an issue

< Cash Value >
bawhomp: that's 165g value btw
fe3333au: We must establish on TNT and Nuts before they do us ... Nuts the bigger threat

< Cash value responce >
fe3333au: I know ... as mentioned we have 10gp in bank ATM

Back to Juicy Gossip
bawhomp: what's up with the war from what you've heard? ... nobody has been very vague
fe3333au: I heard from Greekguy before I sent the very diplomatic bad luck we have Currency your restriction came too late letter

<breath>

fe3333au: he mentioned that they were successful last battle ... does that mean that they are now in GA?
bawhomp: yes
fe3333au: anyway to confirm
bawhomp: if they've won with an immortal
fe3333au: All we have is a battle report ... it may be mis information

Unit Strength
fe3333au: we can see units strength ... but all I get from Military pophead is that everyone is stronger than us LOL
bawhomp: F11 should help. neither of us should be #2 in economic #'s

Personal Disclaimer
fe3333au: btw ... I was never pissed off during the whole cold war detante sessions with Tubby or Dags ... I was liking it very much ... what a great game that can do this
bawhomp: It was not chosing the right words
fe3333au: We got only 4 players atm ... gen_W on holiday in Mexico
bawhomp: on both ends not talking it out ...

Trading Assurance
fe3333au: Just to clarify ... we will not trade with another unless consultation takes place?

<Whomp still on previous thoughts >
bawhomp: We felt we've held out diplo with the other teams because we carry the jewel

An Answer
bawhomp: correct
fe3333au: I'll be anal ... we is defined as KISS and MIA
bawhomp: ok

We are agreed ... Defcon back to Groovy
fe3333au: anyway I got the gist of the trading you want ... so I will redraft ... you got Republic in 12?
bawhomp: ok so can you send the techs. I can explain it away as our deal for republic
fe3333au: yes
bawhomp: I didn't check today how many
fe3333au: around that figure

Nitey Night Sweetie
fe3333au: I just gotta say We Wuv U Whomp :kissy:

Finally all I wanted was to start a hagglin' ... here is how I see it

1. The Big republic
KISS give Republic in return for MIA supplying Literature, Map Making, Mathematics and Currency

2. This is the End ... or on to the Middle
2. The coupe de gras ... when KISS supplies Construction, MIA will return with the knowledge of Polytheism and Horseback Riding.

3. Discussion before Action
3. No trade with Battle Islander unless agreed to by other party in Green Alliance

Outstanding Issue ... Our free MA tech ...
> maybe we could sell it ???
> or it compensates our period of anarchy with Govt change
> ... will need MIA team discussion

I'm just relieved that we are back on track and Green Alliance seems to have firmed up again

EDIT : maybe sending Mathematics next turn as a good will gift would be prudent

 

[Chamnix]

Good deal It is in fact exactly what we offered them before in total, but they get Currency sooner - I see no problem. I don't really understand how they didn't think they were getting all AA techs before, but whatever.

I don't see any way KISS will go for extended anarchy, and that's not really good for KISSMIA anyway. Our free MA tech will be for sale under MFN - once they research something else, they can have it.

 

[peter grimes]

Glad to see that things are back on track.

One thing I get from reading Whomp is that it seems like they want Lit Cur and MM to be traded right now before they've completed Republic. I can certainly understand that they might want to get building a harbor or marketplace or something. It just makes me nervous that things are not all hunky-dory - that there is still an outstanding issue to be resolved.

If they want those techs before the REP trade, I suggest that we work out an arrangement that involves our Middle Ages tech. They have been hot to get our MA freebie from the very first conversation, and it seems to be something that we've put off thinking about because (until now) it's been so far in the future. Well, now we have to deal with it.

I think they will be insulted if we charge them a fee for it. I know I would be. It'll be much more productive to talk about this once we have the freebie in hand, but we should try and brainstorm a few ways to play it.

I also think we should get some hard numbers on their beakers/turn, compare that number to ours, and then figure out who does Construction. Likewise, that info is needed to discuss the Education sprint.

EDIT: Just checked the Vault: there is no written agreement regarding the MA freebie. Maybe something was mentioned in a chat, but as of now, there is nothing inked. Personally i think we should let KISS know that there is NO WAY we are giving that freebie to a BattleIslander, but KISS won't receive it until they've got something to trade in return. This will reduce the likelihood of any Great Library problems.

 

[fe3333au]

I don't think they want technology now ... or at least I don't read it like that ... however we could give them Mathematics that way when we trade for Republic, we can send them Currency straight away.

Literature should NOT be traded as it is the crux of the Nut deal to KISS

Anyone else feel that this is a good idea?