Still. Just a tought, can we get a game pace added in that makes sciencer more expensive, like 30% or 50%. Just for the sake of it, Quick and Standard speeds make sure your unique units are obsolete in about 10-20 turns, and longer ones are frustrating to watch 50 turns for a monument.
Next step building adjustments
- Thread starter mystikx21
- Start date
Anastase Alex
Warlord
My take:
Food/Growth Buildings
Granary - No change
Watermill - Maintenance reduced from 2 to 1.
Aqueduct - +1 food to Lakes, Oasis
Garden - +1 food to Citrus, Wine. No terrain prereq. Perhaps a
cost reduction?
Hospital - -1 maintenance. Perhaps a cost reduction?
Medical Lab - No change. Units in and adjacent to the city heal 5 extra HP or start with medic?
Faith Buildings
Shrine - No change
Temple - +1 faith on incense only, -1 maintenance. Shrine no longer a prereq
Culture Buildings
Monument - 2 culture per turn
Amphitheater - 3 culture per turn +1 culture to Dye (no silk, cotton, or furs) monument no longer a prereq
Opera House - 4 culture per turn, +1 culture with Silk. Amphitheater no longer a prereq
Museum - Opera House no longer a prereq
Broadcast Tower - Museum no longer a prereq
XP Buildings
Barracks - +10XP, 1 gold mentainance stationed unit costs no mentainance
Armory - +10XP, 2 gold mentainance each stationed unit reduces vulnerability by 1, you can station 2 units in a city
Military Academy - +10XP, 3 gold mentainance stationed units gain 2XP/turn
Happy Buildings
Colosseum - +1 happy, -1 disorder
Zoo - +1 happy, - 1 illiteracy
Stadium - +1 happy, -1 poverty, reduced cost
Circus - +1 maintenance.
Stables, Forges, and Stone oh my!
Stables - Add +1 production. Now all mounted units gain +15% production.
Forge - +1 production to Iron, Aluminum, Coal, Uranium, Oil.
Stoneworks - No longer has a terrain prereq.
Sea Buildings
Lighthouse - No change
Harbor - No change
Seaport - 25% bonus to naval production. +1 gold in water. Harbor no longer a prereq.
Money Buildings
Market -+1 gold spices and sugar
Mint - +2 gold, +1 gold to copper, silver, gems, gold
Bank - No change
Stock Exchange - No change
Caravansary - +1 gold to all luxury resources, +1 gold to truffles, cotton, fur
Science Buildings
Library - 1 scientist slot (was 0) , no increase in maintenance
University - 1 scientist slot (instead of 2), +1 science to jungles (was 2), +1 maintenance.
Public School - +1 maintenance
Research Lab - +1 science to jungles (was 0), deep ocean tiles have +1 science
+1 maintenance.
Observatory - +2 science and +20% science, mountain tiles have +2 science
Hammer Buildings
Workshop - No change
Windmill - No change
Factory - No change
Hydro Plant - Requires watermill (no aluminum). -2 maintenance.
Nuclear Plant - No change
Solar Plant - No change
Recycling Center - No change
Spaceship Factory - No change
Security Buildings
Constabulary - -1 discontent, poverty. 25% spy reduction
Police Station - -1 discontent, 25% spy reduction
Tourism Buildings
Hotel - No change
Airport - No change
Military Buildings
Courthouse - 140Production cost, +10Production cost per Citizen population. No maintanence cost, higher rush buy cost.
Walls - 100 hitpoints (was 50)
Castle - 150 hitpoints (was 25)
Arsenal - 200 hitpoints (was 25)
Military Base - 250 hitpoints (was 25), -25% damage from aircraft, and -50% damage from nukes.
Bomb Shelter: Removed from game.
Food/Growth Buildings
Granary - No change
Watermill - Maintenance reduced from 2 to 1.
Aqueduct - +1 food to Lakes, Oasis
Garden - +1 food to Citrus, Wine. No terrain prereq. Perhaps a
cost reduction?Hospital - -1 maintenance. Perhaps a
cost reduction?Medical Lab - No change. Units in and adjacent to the city heal 5 extra HP or start with medic?
Faith Buildings
Shrine - No change
Temple - +1 faith on incense only, -1 maintenance. Shrine no longer a prereq
Culture Buildings
Monument - 2 culture per turn
Amphitheater - 3 culture per turn +1 culture to Dye (no silk, cotton, or furs) monument no longer a prereq
Opera House - 4 culture per turn, +1 culture with Silk. Amphitheater no longer a prereq
Museum - Opera House no longer a prereq
Broadcast Tower - Museum no longer a prereq
XP Buildings
Barracks - +10XP, 1 gold mentainance stationed unit costs no mentainance
Armory - +10XP, 2 gold mentainance each stationed unit reduces vulnerability by 1, you can station 2 units in a city
Military Academy - +10XP, 3 gold mentainance stationed units gain 2XP/turn
Happy Buildings
Colosseum - +1 happy, -1 disorder
Zoo - +1 happy, - 1 illiteracy
Stadium - +1 happy, -1 poverty, reduced cost
Circus - +1 maintenance.
Stables, Forges, and Stone oh my!
Stables - Add +1 production. Now all mounted units gain +15% production.
Forge - +1 production to Iron, Aluminum, Coal, Uranium, Oil.
Stoneworks - No longer has a terrain prereq.
Sea Buildings
Lighthouse - No change
Harbor - No change
Seaport - 25% bonus to naval production. +1 gold in water. Harbor no longer a prereq.
Money Buildings
Market -+1 gold spices and sugar
Mint - +2 gold, +1 gold to copper, silver, gems, gold
Bank - No change
Stock Exchange - No change
Caravansary - +1 gold to all luxury resources, +1 gold to truffles, cotton, fur
Science Buildings
Library - 1 scientist slot (was 0) , no increase in maintenance
University - 1 scientist slot (instead of 2), +1 science to jungles (was 2), +1 maintenance.
Public School - +1 maintenance
Research Lab - +1 science to jungles (was 0), deep ocean tiles have +1 science
+1 maintenance.
Observatory - +2 science and +20% science, mountain tiles have +2 science
Hammer Buildings
Workshop - No change
Windmill - No change
Factory - No change
Hydro Plant - Requires watermill (no aluminum). -2 maintenance.
Nuclear Plant - No change
Solar Plant - No change
Recycling Center - No change
Spaceship Factory - No change
Security Buildings
Constabulary - -1 discontent, poverty. 25% spy reduction
Police Station - -1 discontent, 25% spy reduction
Tourism Buildings
Hotel - No change
Airport - No change
Military Buildings
Courthouse - 140Production cost, +10Production cost per Citizen population. No maintanence cost, higher rush buy cost.
Walls - 100 hitpoints (was 50)
Castle - 150 hitpoints (was 25)
Arsenal - 200 hitpoints (was 25)
Military Base - 250 hitpoints (was 25), -25% damage from aircraft, and -50% damage from nukes.
Bomb Shelter: Removed from game.
mitsho
Deity
Try a mod like this. They should (I haven't tried it) be compatible with the other mods around here and seem only to change research cost without adjusting buildings or anything else.
I'd be curious how this affects gameplay, but it's certainly nothing for me personally.
@Anastase_Alex I like your idea on Medical Labs. It's a nice small way to make conquest thougher
Being able to garrison two units in one city however is a big no-no from me. Even now focus-fire from one city may be deadly.Try a mod like this. They should (I haven't tried it) be compatible with the other mods around here and seem only to change research cost without adjusting buildings or anything else.
I'd be curious how this affects gameplay, but it's certainly nothing for me personally.
@Anastase_Alex I like your idea on Medical Labs. It's a nice small way to make conquest thougher
Snap. Can anyone get me a non steam workshop link? Seems not to be workin with me., pref for all the versions, not sure what is best
yes, but for now, could anyone get me something like a dropbox link? Workshop seems not to be workin with me
OKEY, no need, seems to be working again.
Being able to keep 2 units in the same city would be extremely beneficial, reducing vulnerability or not. Probably too strong in fact
I'm not sure it would be beneficial in the sense of adding something we want to balance (it could be imbalancing in an undesirable way). To rephrase. Considering I also think it would need some code adjustment to make work (because of a building, rather than changing 1UT in general), it definitely becomes a highly sketchy suggestion that we should ignore.
I'm not even sure it adds that much to the building either though. You can already do this with stationing a naval unit in the city and bombarding or stacking air units. Another machine gun or artillery unit really going to add much?
I'd rather have hospitals add to healing for units nearby, med lab could just go straight up and give the medic promotion. As one way to make them more valuable. Cost adjustment down is fine. Med Lab in CEP also had +1 population, or was intended to. That'd be fine with me as well.
Other thoughts
1) I'd be fine with the windmill coming off the hill requirement (and being reduced in cost).
2) Dumping the forge and spreading out the +1 on strategic resources would be fine.
3) Amphitheater at +2, GW slot, +1 to dyes would be okay. Opera House at +3, GW slot and +1 to silk. GW slots should be bumped with aesthetics for tourism, so the extra culture here could be canceled out.
4) I still think we could redo hotels to add tourism to NWs directly instead of culture multiplied.
5) The basis for not having the caravansary give +1 to all luxuries as CEP did was hashed out earlier in the thread, but it's basically to prevent a gold glut by doubling up the extra gold provided on luxuries (extra gold is available on plantations or camps by default, and then provided on various luxuries through other buildings instead). They do fine as is by being a little cheaper, adding a little gold, adding some gold for flavor in some cities, and making land routes effective in the early and mid game. It should not add +1 to all luxuries as a result.
I'm not even sure it adds that much to the building either though. You can already do this with stationing a naval unit in the city and bombarding or stacking air units. Another machine gun or artillery unit really going to add much?
I'd rather have hospitals add to healing for units nearby, med lab could just go straight up and give the medic promotion. As one way to make them more valuable. Cost adjustment down is fine. Med Lab in CEP also had +1 population, or was intended to. That'd be fine with me as well.
Other thoughts
1) I'd be fine with the windmill coming off the hill requirement (and being reduced in cost).
2) Dumping the forge and spreading out the +1 on strategic resources would be fine.
3) Amphitheater at +2, GW slot, +1 to dyes would be okay. Opera House at +3, GW slot and +1 to silk. GW slots should be bumped with aesthetics for tourism, so the extra culture here could be canceled out.
4) I still think we could redo hotels to add tourism to NWs directly instead of culture multiplied.
5) The basis for not having the caravansary give +1 to all luxuries as CEP did was hashed out earlier in the thread, but it's basically to prevent a gold glut by doubling up the extra gold provided on luxuries (extra gold is available on plantations or camps by default, and then provided on various luxuries through other buildings instead). They do fine as is by being a little cheaper, adding a little gold, adding some gold for flavor in some cities, and making land routes effective in the early and mid game. It should not add +1 to all luxuries as a result.
4) I still think we could redo hotels to add tourism to NWs directly instead of culture multiplied.
This is going to make the hotels close to useless as NWs are extremely rare. Also this would effectively cut off one forth of your tourismoutput.
5) The basis for not having the caravansary give +1 to all luxuries as CEP did was hashed out earlier in the thread, but it's basically to prevent a gold glut by doubling up the extra gold provided on luxuries (extra gold is available on plantations or camps by default, and then provided on various luxuries through other buildings instead). They do fine as is by being a little cheaper, adding a little gold, adding some gold for flavor in some cities, and making land routes effective in the early and mid game. It should not add +1 to all luxuries as a result.
Fine, guess you can add some fun stats to it in commerce.
This is going to make the hotels close to useless as NWs are extremely rare. Also this would effectively cut off one forth of your tourismoutput.
5) The basis for not having the caravansary give +1 to all luxuries as CEP did was hashed out earlier in the thread, but it's basically to prevent a gold glut by doubling up the extra gold provided on luxuries (extra gold is available on plantations or camps by default, and then provided on various luxuries through other buildings instead). They do fine as is by being a little cheaper, adding a little gold, adding some gold for flavor in some cities, and making land routes effective in the early and mid game. It should not add +1 to all luxuries as a result.
Fine, guess you can add some fun stats to it in commerce.
4) I mean specifically for how they interact with natural wonders. Not to replace their multiplier effect from other things (wonders). Add some raw tourism instead so they interact with all natural wonders regardless of policies/WC effects. (also reduces the value of high culture NWs for culture wins versus just having a couple natural wonders around).
5) I don't know that it needs much from the tree. Trade routes maybe in commerce, or a bonus to city connections for caravan/harbors. I'm not sure I'd want to put a multiplier or raw gold on them.
5) I don't know that it needs much from the tree. Trade routes maybe in commerce, or a bonus to city connections for caravan/harbors. I'm not sure I'd want to put a multiplier or raw gold on them.
mitsho
Deity
Good to hear, sorry I was off yesterday just after the post. Not sure why you had problems, I just searched for "slower research" on the workshop and posted that link
Regarding the numbers:
2) The "build units faster" effect would fit quite well with the barracks or armory while not making them overpowered. This would also make sense thematically and be similar gameplay wise.
Barracks: Garrisoned Units pay no upkeep (1st to build means it's a quick fix for your money problems in new cities and early on)
Armory: 10% to unit building, +1 production on iron (for those specialising, but is the building too late for the iron boost?)
The military academy then is the open question.
4) Very convincing, and flavourful. Bought.
5) A buff to gold infrastructure in the commerce tree seems fine. It'll already be overloaded with gold so yes, agree that straight gold is needed, but trade route bonus, production, great person rate or science would all fit somehow. Kinda depends on what commerce'll need.
Another possible merge would be to merge the caravanserai with the stables, but the way we have them, they seem distinct enough already.
EDIT: Giving the medic promotion away on a building seems like a nerf to the Pentagon, the promotion in general and perhaps the AI. The AI will already struggle with bringing their units back to heal around those cities, but on the other hand it will make it tougher to conquer those cities as on defense, the units will be in proximity of the city... A similar problem is with the +1 population if we put that on medical lab, as that effect already belongs to the CN Tower, no?
Agreed, free promotions is wonder/national wonder material, too good for random buildings. Especially advanced promotions like medic.
Healthcare does tend to make people happy, unless they are Americans ofc.
So I agree, lowering something seems solid, probably poverty?
For the military buildings, based on the poll it looks like that people are good with buffs to the armories and MA. But the barrack looks good, so lets leave that alone.
I would be good with 15/20/30...or 15 all but with other bumps...but I really don't want to see the barracks changed, as there appears to be no real need for it.
I would be good with 15/20/30...or 15 all but with other bumps...but I really don't want to see the barracks changed, as there appears to be no real need for it.
You should probably lower the baracks to make up for increases to the other ones, you can't have units spawning with that much extra experience. Also it totally makes the brandenburg gate look horrible. Something like 10/15/20 with bonus effect seems more reasonable. 10/15/25 could work aswell.
Anastase Alex
Warlord
In defence to my proposal of 2 units per city I am proposing that due to having played with whoward's mods no more civilian trafic jams and 2 units per tile, and I can say it really really changes the game in a positive way. However I can understand that it is not a necessary adition. In that case, I would prefer to simply add a +1 production to baracks, +2 to armory and +3 to military base, or a +10% military units production to each one of them.
As far as eliminating the pentagon bonus, indeed that makes my idea about medical labs and hospitals a bit less fun. However I find pentagon rarely worth getting personally, because if I am warmongering I am either doing it early on, and if I get to that point in the technology tree it means I am going for another victory type where I might have to build medical labs, and defence. If medical labs gave the medic promotion that would help me defend while people are attacking me in the late stages of the game. Perhaps changing the pentagon would be nice in general, even if we do not add anything to the hospital/medical lab.
However no one commented on these three proposed changes:
Research Lab - +1 science to jungles (was 0), deep ocean tiles have +1 science
+1 maintenance.
Observatory - +2 science and +20% science, mountain tiles have +3 science remove restriction of where to build them.
Seaport - 25% bonus to naval production. +1 gold in water tiles. Harbor no longer a prereq.
Which I believe would make observatories very interesting, and make ocean tiles more interesting too.
As far as eliminating the pentagon bonus, indeed that makes my idea about medical labs and hospitals a bit less fun. However I find pentagon rarely worth getting personally, because if I am warmongering I am either doing it early on, and if I get to that point in the technology tree it means I am going for another victory type where I might have to build medical labs, and defence. If medical labs gave the medic promotion that would help me defend while people are attacking me in the late stages of the game. Perhaps changing the pentagon would be nice in general, even if we do not add anything to the hospital/medical lab.
However no one commented on these three proposed changes:
Research Lab - +1 science to jungles (was 0), deep ocean tiles have +1 science
+1 maintenance.
Observatory - +2 science and +20% science, mountain tiles have +3 science remove restriction of where to build them.
Seaport - 25% bonus to naval production. +1 gold in water tiles. Harbor no longer a prereq.
Which I believe would make observatories very interesting, and make ocean tiles more interesting too.
mitsho
Deity
Well, the science to jungles equalises the one you took away on universities, so that's a non-starter. The (very) slight buff to coastal cities with 1 science on ocean tiles works as well for me. No comment usually means approval here
As for the Seaport, I must have overlooked it, I prefer this to be the production focused naval building (while lighthouse is food and harbor is gold).
Observatories are fine with the "within 2 tiles of a mountain" and the lowered %. I would probably never work a 3-science mountain unless I've built Macchu Picchu or have a NW around, so I don't think we need the bonus at all. It's more clutter than anything else.
As for the barracks line, I disagree the need not to buff barracks. If we buff the later ones with effects useful for all cities, then it seems clunky to have barracks be a "useless" prerequisite. If we keep the line at the experience bonuses, then of course it doesn't need a buff. I'm not convinced that "no upkeep" is a huge buff though, it'll save you some precious gold, but unless in a very wide empire, the amount will be low. An in a wide empire, you will not need many units in the center of your empire, so it just avoids a net loss for a happy gain.
The merge of forge and armory however seems quite logical and straightforward to me, any objections? To keep it in the same sense, one could then give the Military academy further % to unit production and the -1 to disorder, you got to be rewarded for building the whole line. I'm not sure delinking the line is a good idea on the other hand.
As for the Seaport, I must have overlooked it, I prefer this to be the production focused naval building (while lighthouse is food and harbor is gold).
Observatories are fine with the "within 2 tiles of a mountain" and the lowered %. I would probably never work a 3-science mountain unless I've built Macchu Picchu or have a NW around, so I don't think we need the bonus at all. It's more clutter than anything else.
As for the barracks line, I disagree the need not to buff barracks. If we buff the later ones with effects useful for all cities, then it seems clunky to have barracks be a "useless" prerequisite. If we keep the line at the experience bonuses, then of course it doesn't need a buff. I'm not convinced that "no upkeep" is a huge buff though, it'll save you some precious gold, but unless in a very wide empire, the amount will be low. An in a wide empire, you will not need many units in the center of your empire, so it just avoids a net loss for a happy gain.
The merge of forge and armory however seems quite logical and straightforward to me, any objections? To keep it in the same sense, one could then give the Military academy further % to unit production and the -1 to disorder, you got to be rewarded for building the whole line. I'm not sure delinking the line is a good idea on the other hand.
Anastase Alex
Warlord
Then how about we add +4 science to mountains with observatory?
+2 science on ocean tiles on research lab?
As far as the Natural Wonders, I realy dislike the fact they count as mountains. In CEP, if I recall correctly that had been fixed.
I find that sea and ocean tiles are not really competitive right now. I believe that in the late game, a coastal tile is not worth it unless it has a sea resource on it. I would like it to have someting like 3 food 1 gold for coastal and 3 food 2 science on ocean tiles to make the choice of where you put your citizens to work more interesting.
For the baracks line, yes merging the forge and the armory is one good way to go, and keeping them tied to each other sounds good.
+2 science on ocean tiles on research lab?
As far as the Natural Wonders, I realy dislike the fact they count as mountains. In CEP, if I recall correctly that had been fixed.
I find that sea and ocean tiles are not really competitive right now. I believe that in the late game, a coastal tile is not worth it unless it has a sea resource on it. I would like it to have someting like 3 food 1 gold for coastal and 3 food 2 science on ocean tiles to make the choice of where you put your citizens to work more interesting.
For the baracks line, yes merging the forge and the armory is one good way to go, and keeping them tied to each other sounds good.
The science to jungles is fine. I don't see that as a non-starter. The university is very good right now by default. Reducing the scientist slots and reducing the jungle science would both work fine. I'm okay with a science on deep oceans, but it's pretty slight. I don't think it should be higher than +1. The jungle bonus and the +50% on the lab is sufficient already to make it quite good.
Seaport, my preference is to leave the gold/production on regular tiles. If we add gold to all coastal tiles instead (but bump the unit production bonus as intended), then I'd want the upkeep or cost increased. I agree this would make coast tiles worth a little more. Which is fine with me. Ocean tiles should be somewhat like tundra or desert and not usually worth working.
Observatory bonus on mountains would be good if, as mitsho points out, there are other bonuses on the mountains. It doesn't need to be raised on its own to make the science worthwhile rather than a flavor change. We could add a yield to some other buildings late game (tourism or culture for instance).
Barracks line options
1) Reduce the barracks XP to 10 or leave it at 15. "Buff" it with the iron bonus from the forge (or put that on the armory, but that's fairly late relative to the stable bonus on horses)
2) Armory, leave at 15 or raise to 20, doesn't matter to me much. Could be improved by moving the 10% unit from the forge slightly or the iron bonus as well.
3) military academy - raise XP (30 is easiest). Disorder bonus seems appropriate.
I would not raise the upkeep on these.
Seaport, my preference is to leave the gold/production on regular tiles. If we add gold to all coastal tiles instead (but bump the unit production bonus as intended), then I'd want the upkeep or cost increased. I agree this would make coast tiles worth a little more. Which is fine with me. Ocean tiles should be somewhat like tundra or desert and not usually worth working.
Observatory bonus on mountains would be good if, as mitsho points out, there are other bonuses on the mountains. It doesn't need to be raised on its own to make the science worthwhile rather than a flavor change. We could add a yield to some other buildings late game (tourism or culture for instance).
Barracks line options
1) Reduce the barracks XP to 10 or leave it at 15. "Buff" it with the iron bonus from the forge (or put that on the armory, but that's fairly late relative to the stable bonus on horses)
2) Armory, leave at 15 or raise to 20, doesn't matter to me much. Could be improved by moving the 10% unit from the forge slightly or the iron bonus as well.
3) military academy - raise XP (30 is easiest). Disorder bonus seems appropriate.
I would not raise the upkeep on these.
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