NiGHTS: Diplomacy

[markusbeutel]

In addition to a positive bonus for the Open Borders, how about some sort of monetary reward for open borders, to simulate foreign trade income? (Either a little income every turn the treaty is in effect or one large lump sum). Make the treaty impossible to break in that time period. It still irks me that the game has no mechanic to represent foreign trade aside from luxury swapping.

Right now there is still almost zero reason to interact with the AI aside from trading luxury resources and declaring war.

This is probably asked daily, Is there ANY way to exchange map info with the AI's ?

I would also like to see diplomatic options available much earlier in the game. Why not have all of the options available with writing? Whats the downside to doing this?

In the game you have to wait forever to get Defensive pacts and the like, but in real history these dealings were commonplace from the start of civilized man.

I've never actually seen a defensive pact occur in a game... But you raise some good points. I'll see what I can do in regards to reorganizing diplomacy options. Also, I know that the VEM mod has a mechanic where gold is transferred with Open Borders, but that mod has a lot of code going on in it, and I haven't really dug into it to find where/how it's implemented. It'll be included eventually.

And currently, trading maps isn't an option. I'd expect it to be re-introduced along with Tech Trading once we get .dll access.

 

[Mu'min]

How about adding a few more diplo options? Like diplomatic missions, where you have a chance of gaining +1, 0, or -1 in relations, the chances modified by AI personality and existing diplo modifiers, for a short while, say 20 turns, being able to repeat every 10 turns.
Or an Ambassador Exchange giving both civs a boost in diplo modifiers.
Both of these could come in at a level before open borders, to enable you to engage with civs that you might not be able to engage with otherwise, becuz you have nothing to trade or don't want join them in a war etc. To get them out of that neutral/hostile rut where they wont have anything to do with you, so you cant improve relationships to get them out of being neutral/hostile.

 

[markusbeutel]

How about adding a few more diplo options? Like diplomatic missions, where you have a chance of gaining +1, 0, or -1 in relations, the chances modified by AI personality and existing diplo modifiers, for a short while, say 20 turns, being able to repeat every 10 turns.
Or an Ambassador Exchange giving both civs a boost in diplo modifiers.
Both of these could come in at a level before open borders, to enable you to engage with civs that you might not be able to engage with otherwise, becuz you have nothing to trade or don't want join them in a war etc. To get them out of that neutral/hostile rut where they wont have anything to do with you, so you cant improve relationships to get them out of being neutral/hostile.

None of this is possible with our current mod tools - but once the .dll is released, I'm planning on going much more in depth in regards to diplomacy options between Civs.

 

[Balerune]

I've run into this several times before (on immortal.)

On one continent contiguous with France who borders Aztec. Aztec wars with France, then me (for a long time I don't sue for peace); Aztec on and off wars with France and America (other contiguous with them) -- BUT within 2 turns --

1) Peace between France and Aztec and Aztec and France friends (according to info addict.)

2) Open Borders between Aztec and France. (France of course was my buffer against Aztec attacks.)

Two turns is too fast for enemies to become friends and sign open borders.

I don't know what causes this and if it can be corrected.

Thanks.

 

[markusbeutel]

I've updated the main Diplomacy thread (first post in this thread) regarding modifiers, and also listed major changes and things to keep in mind when playing.

 

[black213]

Really digging the new diplomacy.

 

[Catalonia]

I can view this diplomacy...

 

[black213]

I think the diplo hit for allying same city-states as an AI is too big. It makes making friends a bit too hard, since the AI also has very high city-state competitiveness.

 

[markusbeutel]

I think the diplo hit for allying same city-states as an AI is too big. It makes making friends a bit too hard, since the AI also has very high city-state competitiveness.

It's one of the bigger hits at the moment - but I find it's generally one of the more plausible reasons for an AI not to like you, horning in on their zone of influence and such, (although it makes less sense when the CS is a continent and an ocean away).

The problem with reducing the penalty is that this would have to be counter-balanced somewhere else to keep the current level of peace/hostility in check. The main reason for the high penalty, though - would be that CS's, despite all their nerfs, are still ridiculously powerful, and any Civ wealthy enough to ally with a lot of them should have some sort of mechanism to reign them in points wise - (and war's and/or general AI aggression are the best ways confront this).

But I'll take a look at all the modifiers and see if anythings worth switching around. Once .dll access is made available, I'd think that this is one area of the game that will receive the most work, (diplomatic modifiers from similar policies/governments being the first thing that comes to mind).

 

[sbq]

How do you ally with a city state that's already allied with an AI? I was allied with Rio and Spain came and took it away, now I can't get it back as no matter how much gold I give I don't go above Friends. I see city states changing allies in the notifications, but I can't ally with a CS since they're all allied with an AI player.

 

[markusbeutel]

How do you ally with a city state that's already allied with an AI? I was allied with Rio and Spain came and took it away, now I can't get it back as no matter how much gold I give I don't go above Friends. I see city states changing allies in the notifications, but I can't ally with a CS since they're all allied with an AI player.

You have to spend more money than the AI, and unfortunately there's no way to see how much an AI has spent. Its a problem in vanilla as well...

A couple policies in the patronage tree that boost your influence gained through gold gifts can really help in these situations.

 

[sbq]

You have to spend more money than the AI, and unfortunately there's no way to see how much an AI has spent. Its a problem in vanilla as well...

A couple policies in the patronage tree that boost your influence gained through gold gifts can really help in these situations.

is it cumulative throughout the entire game? I just tested and found it took 4000 gold to get to ally with one of the city states. I know I didn't see it like this in vanilla Civ V, but I know the AI didn't pursue the city states as much there.

 

[markusbeutel]

is it cumulative throughout the entire game? I just tested and found it took 4000 gold to get to ally with one of the city states. I know I didn't see it like this in vanilla Civ V, but I know the AI didn't pursue the city states as much there.

It is cumulative, although not all cases are this extreme, (but the AI does go for them much more aggressively than in vanilla).

 

[Huck Finn]

Is there any way to prevent the constant flip flopping of city-states, particularly in the late game?

If a UN election is coming up, I buy the CS one turn, the other AI's buy them the next, back and forth, like a ping pong effect.

Maybe a 5 turn guarantee you will remain their Ally?

Also, it would be nice if they didn't hate you so quick for accidentally strolling through their lands.

 

[markusbeutel]

Is there any way to prevent the constant flip flopping of city-states, particularly in the late game?

If a UN election is coming up, I buy the CS one turn, the other AI's buy them the next, back and forth, like a ping pong effect.

Maybe a 5 turn guarantee you will remain their Ally?

Also, it would be nice if they didn't hate you so quick for accidentally strolling through their lands.

I can reduce the likelihood of the AI going for them, (although I can't limit the rate they pursue them regarding any particular era/time).

It's a tough thing to balance, but I think I'd rather they pursue them aggressively, as opposed to in vanilla where they sit on mounds of gold... (although they still do that on occasion). Putting in a minimum ally period would just end up wrecking the end diplo-game, as you could easily time your victory. I think a better solution would be to limit the amount of bribes/gifts you can make to some extent. Something to think about anyways.

I can, however, reduce the rate at which you lose influence for trespassing. I'll tweak this slightly in this weekend's update.

 

[Heiggwinie]

v1.7. Just a comment I noticed on the Diplomacy.

I joined a bunch of nations and we all declared war on the Mongols. I decided to give 500 gold to a city-state so I would not take a hit on their friendliness since i had to move a bunch of units through their territory to get around to attack a Mongol city on the backside. The turn after I give the city-state the money everybody who I had joined in attacking the mongols all hit me with a denouncing and the next turn they all declared war on me. I thought this was rather brutal so I reloaded the game a few turns back and this time I did not give that city-state any money and I was not denounced and nobody declared war on me.

 

[markusbeutel]

v1.7. Just a comment I noticed on the Diplomacy.

I joined a bunch of nations and we all declared war on the Mongols. I decided to give 500 gold to a city-state so I would not take a hit on their friendliness since i had to move a bunch of units through their territory to get around to attack a Mongol city on the backside. The turn after I give the city-state the money everybody who I had joined in attacking the mongols all hit me with a denouncing and the next turn they all declared war on me. I thought this was rather brutal so I reloaded the game a few turns back and this time I did not give that city-state any money and I was not denounced and nobody declared war on me.

Basically all of the things you can do in the game to anger the AI work contribute to a threshold level, where once you reach certain thresholds, the AI will react. Unfortunately, the AI isn't programmed to interpret these situationally, and once certain thresholds are triggered (you giving money to CS's they've also probably given money to), they'll react - in this case negatively, regardless of current events occurring on a broader scale.

This is why when CIV V first came out, you'd have chain denouncements, and AI's all attacking you on the same turn. There were/are literally 20+ different things you can do to set off the AI, and each AI reacts the exact same way if they're more or less within your sphere of influence regarding your specific actions against them, (settling proximity, CS relations, etc).

You'll notice this happens far less in the mod, as some additional positive modifier have been added, and other negative modifiers have been muted - all to fit better within the context of having grand empires, as opposed to a few patchwork cities. Having said that, situations like the one you mentioned still happen, (as CS competition represents one of the harsher penalties in the mod).

 

[dropdome9]

I only want to download the diplomacy changes from NiGHTS. Is there anyway I can download only this part of the mod?

 

[markusbeutel]

I only want to download the diplomacy changes from NiGHTS. Is there anyway I can download only this part of the mod?

Its not currently standalone, but this might be a good thing to release. I'll upload just the diplomacy changes to the browser over the next few days.

 

[dropdome9]

Its not currently standalone, but this might be a good thing to release. I'll upload just the diplomacy changes to the browser over the next few days.

Thanks. I really love what you did to improve the diplomacy aspect of the game, which needed many of these changes.