[Vote] (7-74) Spain Tweaks... Again

[pineappledan]

I would rather we support the conquistador’s settle properly. The settle is a vanilla ability, and spawning new civilian units off disembarkation just creates new problems.

 

[gwennog]

I would rather we support the conquistador’s settle properly. The settle is a vanilla ability, and spawning new civilian units off disembarkation just creates new problems.

If AI can do it I can only agree with you, if it can't I think it's a real problem given all the talk there is about human/AI balance for vanilla VP.
It's even a huge hitch in the "VP standard".

 

[pineappledan]

Do you want to add India's old ability as well? Where your cities instantly convert to your religion when you Found? That reminds the weirdness with pantheon pressure as well as the incentive to wait until you found before settling too much.

Could add this as an invisible bonus to counter the stickiness of your pantheon, yeah. A lot of pantheon pressure for Spain is something I am actually very ok with. That is reminiscent of how durable bullfighting has been as a cultural practice, and its origins as a pagan ritual. Attempts to stamp out the practice by both Christian, Islamic, and “enlightened” authorities have all failed, and the pre-Christian tradition remains one of the most recognizable expressions of Spanish culture.

 

[pineappledan]

If AI can do it I can only agree with you, if it can't I think it's a real problem given all the talk there is about human/AI balance for vanilla VP.
It's even a huge hitch in the "VP standard".

My own personal view on the AI games stuff has been modified significantly since @L. Vern made his first post.

I think we have made a huge amount of progress equalizing victory types and timings, but with iterations of the tests across versions we have also come to understand the data better. Part of that has been that AI personalities and victory pursuits are heavilly predictive of win rate, and might be more important than the actual kits.

While I have always said we don’t want perfect balance, the effects of AI personalities has convinced me that we might not even want decent balance. Going further in balancing the game might mean making all civs more similar in personalities. It’s not worth sacrificing the AI’s individual personas if it means making games less fun for players.

 

[Rekk]

explorer boat that could explore and plant a fishing boat

Unrelated. The AI currently doesn't allocate military units to do worker tasks.

 

[gwennog]

Unrelated. The AI currently doesn't allocate military units to do worker tasks.

Why unrelated? I was referring to the two major AI/human differences that I see in the game, a combat or exploration unit does not plant a city or improvement, namely the Spain or Polynesians.
I find it a pity.

 

[gwennog]

While I have always said we don’t want perfect balance, the effects of AI personalities has convinced me that we might not even want decent balance. Going further in balancing the game might mean making all civs more similar in personalities. It’s not worth sacrificing the AI’s individual personas if it means making games less fun for players.

I agree with you but this is a really strong component of the game. If I had a very good idea, I would give it but that is not the case. I find that you often have very good ones and I think that you can offer better than that and correct this important bias.

 

[Rekk]

Why unrelated? I was referring to the two major AI/human differences that I see in the game, a combat or exploration unit does not plant a city or improvement, namely the Spain or Polynesians.
I find it a pity.

Yes, but military units not creating improvements is a different problem from military units not settling. The first issue is not related to UNITAI tags.

 

[gwennog]

Yes, but military units not creating improvements is a different problem from military units not settling. The first issue is not related to UNITAI tags.

Ok, I didn't know, sorry but thanks for the clarification.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Cant speak for the performance of Spain in AI hands, but in human hands she is very strong. Bullring is meh but the rest are good, and especially the Conquistador is an absolute wrecking ball. One of the strongest units I have used, those two promotions are incredibly strong and has +6 cs over the explorer. Please dont nerf

 

[rkkn]

Unrelated. The AI currently doesn't allocate military units to do worker tasks.

AI can't make use of this part of Rome and Polynesia?
is AI Polynesia building work boats for no reason?

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Oh and btw I think Spain should have a stronger inquisitor than other civs, kinda like a small 5th UC. Inquisitors at 50% is too weak in general imo, should be at least 65%

 

[Tekamthi]

AI personalities and victory pursuits are heavilly predictive of win rate, and might be more important than the actual kits.

This is fine imo and not the kind of balance we should have in mind so much if you ask me. For example tic tac toe is very balanced win rate game, all teams there get 0% win rate and 100% tie rate unless deliberately played poorly. Nevermind how simple it is, this "balance" alone makes it incredibly boring.

Once every civ can achieve some minimal threshold of win rate, should turn our attention to making it as interesting to play as possible for human.

 

[pineappledan]

Sponsor note:
This proposal requires the addition of the following new abilities:

Newly-settled cities start with enough pressure from your capital's majority religion (including pantheon) to convert them​

This might require some consultation with @Rekk , because he is the religious pressure guy​

the rest is SQL and text work that I would be able to assist with. I think. I'm pretty sure the conquistador change should be a simple matter of removing their unique settle ability and just giving them the settle ability of a normal settler.

 

[Rekk]

Newly-settled cities start with enough pressure from your capital's majority religion (including pantheon) to convert them

a. All newly-settled cities already start with enough pressure to start with a pantheon (if you haven't founded yet)
b. We have a mod option that causes cities to be founded with your (majority? founded?) religion, so this UA can key off of an if-statement that already exists.

 

[azum4roll]

What's the exact amount of followers you want newly founded cities to have?
Barely enough for majority?
Barely enough for (Population - 1) followers?
Flat 1000 pressure?

 

[pineappledan]

What's the exact amount of followers you want newly founded cities to have?

b. We have a mod option that causes cities to be founded with your (majority? founded?) religion, so this UA can key off of an if-statement that already exists

If there is code that already does this, and can be modified for this purpose, then however it works is fine.

 

[axatin]

Sponsor note:
This proposal requires the addition of the following new abilities:
Newly-settled cities start with enough pressure from your capital's majority religion (including pantheon) to convert them This might require some consultation with @Rekk , because he is the religious pressure guy

I can sponsor that part.

 

[KungCheops]

AI can't make use of this part of Rome and Polynesia?
is AI Polynesia building work boats for no reason?

I'm pretty sure that is the case, yes.

 

[Recursive]

I still want my Inquisition joke.

Updated.

Given you are the most knowledgeable one about the diplomacy and flavours, @Recursive I hoped I might consult you on them.
The Primary and secondary victory pursuits both being domination pretty clearly seems to be a bug.
Given I think Spain has the capacity with her econ and faith bonuses to take a swing at diplomacy if conquest stalls, I thought I would mellow her out on both major and minor approach biases.

Her gold and religion flavours seem conspicuously low compared to her unit flavors, so I increased the former and toned down the latter. I also lowered some of her flavours across the board because she is posting 7's for almost everything.

I missed this, sorry.

In my version of LeaderPersonalitySweeps.sql, Domination is listed as the primary pursuit with no secondary pursuit. Where are you getting a secondary pursuit of Domination from?