No Barbarians on the map

[Krombacher84]

Hello ^^

First of all, thank you for such a great mod... I cant play another vanilla civ ever again, but thats not necessary since I always have C2C

So here is my question...

I am playing with a SVN version from October 2017:

Was there something changed about Barbarians? Cause when I remember the time back at V36 I played a map with the exact same settings and from the get go I always had barbarians goofing around at my city borders and doing their Forest Mongo things. I also had always barbarian cities near my cities... I destroyed them but a while later they were rebuild at another spot... pesky creatures ^^

Now in the SVN October 2017 version I am playing, I did scout the whole map 120x200 in size and I did one time kill 1 barbarian Neanderthal Axeman... never seen one again... so I am now at the year 53xx something before christ aaaaaand just out of interest I entered world builder and litterally scrolled around the whole map and just found another barb axeman neanderthaler... and some Barb ships pestering the romans but I think those spawned because of a pirate event (I did read something in the log a while back ^^)

So... mind you this is with raging barbs turned off, but in the past I also had it off and had barbs galore... should I turn on raging barbs setting or is there something else I can do or check that would help to figure that out?

Also... ahem... how do I change the raging barb setting in a running game, if I had to? XD

Thanks for reading this.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There have been some recent adjustments of spawn activities. Last week they changed from being active based on the game year to being active based on the techs possessed by players in the game. It sounds like your version is from just before that change though. You should update... doesn't break compatibility and we just fixed some important things to repair. Keep us appraised on this though.

You can change to raging barbs in the worldbuilder under the player controls but option changes mid-game can sometimes destabilize things so its not exactly advised. I THINK this one might be safe to change midstream though.

 

[Krombacher84]

Just in case I end up in some kind of Back to the future Biff World where every corner of the world is full with barbarians... could I in theory change raging barbs back to off If I midstream changed it on or is it always a bigger chance to fk something up if I turn it on off on off like a light switch ^^

Also if I put raging barby on, does it also spawn more animals then? Cause there are quite a lot already ^^

uhm how about the barbarian world setting... does it do anything midstream? Can I even change it midstream or is that one of those settings killing my game?
I have barb to civs off and plan on leaving it off as I already play with quite some civs and its planned to reduce them as the game goes on by war ^^ So just more barbys would be nice... so my soldiers have something for target practice before the real deal (before war).

 

[Thunderbrd]

Just in case I end up in some kind of Back to the future Biff World where every corner of the world is full with barbarians... could I in theory change raging barbs back to off If I midstream changed it on or is it always a bigger chance to fk something up if I turn it on off on off like a light switch ^^

There's a chance but once proven safe it probably is. However, odd bugs can take place that don't manifest until its too late to repair them and sometimes option changes can cause that.

Also if I put raging barby on, does it also spawn more animals then? Cause there are quite a lot already ^^

Shouldn't. Barbarians are still understood to be a different thing.

uhm how about the barbarian world setting... does it do anything midstream? Can I even change it midstream or is that one of those settings killing my game?

Not sure. I haven't attempted to figure out what option shifts are safe and which aren't.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I am playing with a SVN version from October 2017:

You sure it was not October 2016? That would be the v37 Official release. Depends upon where you got this version from.

But...if you are using the SVN to get your versions then an Oct. 2017 vsrsion would be svn versions 9708 thru 9734.

 

[Krombacher84]

You sure it was not October 2016? That would be the v37 Official release. Depends upon where you got this version from.

But...if you are using the SVN to get your versions then an Oct. 2017 vsrsion would be svn versions 9708 thru 9734.

Yeah, I always get the SVN versions... since a long time, since V31 or V32 I think.

I did just check, it was the 9708 I had, pretty early from somewhere in the beginning/mid of October 2017.
I did now update to the latest 9756... I am just unsure about setting it to raging barbarians now, cause I dont want to have that situation where I see too late if my savegame gets screwed over or not... :-\
Dont want to start again... its a really nice map the random gen did spit out this time and I had to gen like 10-15 maps to get that nice map... usually I get NO ocean at all or a lot of ocean... I dont want to play with oceans of 30%... its too much for my taste but since there is just the 30% setting or "minimize ocean" its a chore to set up a new game and get it just right in my sweat spot ^^ Keep in mind I gen big maps with 120x200 which needs a few minutes till I checked it a little on WorldBuilder without too much spoilers... I basically zoom out with closed eyes when world builder did start, so I can just see the basic layout of the mpa, the oceans the landmass and such.... not the resources and details as I want to explore those myself when playing.

Uhm maybe that answer might help me, if someone knows... How long should it take to see those barb spawning change come to live in my game, or more precise, did someone of you guys had the same or similiar situation and can tell me first hand how many turns it might take till I see the full change in barb spawning kicking in? I am just asking about the version change situation.... not included also activating rage barbs, I know that would make a pretty fast difference I guess.

Also If I set raging barbs is there a way I could salvage at least the map, maybe as a scenario or something?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, I always get the SVN versions... since a long time, since V31 or V32 I think.

I did just check, it was the 9708 I had, pretty early from somewhere in the beginning/mid of October 2017.
I did now update to the latest 9756... I am just unsure about setting it to raging barbarians now, cause I dont want to have that situation where I see too late if my savegame gets screwed over or not... :-\
Dont want to start again... its a really nice map the random gen did spit out this time and I had to gen like 10-15 maps to get that nice map... usually I get NO ocean at all or a lot of ocean... I dont want to play with oceans of 30%... its too much for my taste but since there is just the 30% setting or "minimize ocean" its a chore to set up a new game and get it just right in my sweat spot ^^ Keep in mind I gen big maps with 120x200 which needs a few minutes till I checked it a little on WorldBuilder without too much spoilers... I basically zoom out with closed eyes when world builder did start, so I can just see the basic layout of the mpa, the oceans the landmass and such.... not the resources and details as I want to explore those myself when playing.

Uhm maybe that answer might help me, if someone knows... How long should it take to see those barb spawning change come to live in my game, or more precise, did someone of you guys had the same or similiar situation and can tell me first hand how many turns it might take till I see the full change in barb spawning kicking in? I am just asking about the version change situation.... not included also activating rage barbs, I know that would make a pretty fast difference I guess.

Also If I set raging barbs is there a way I could salvage at least the map, maybe as a scenario or something?

Hard to say how long it would take you to see the spawning difference.

If you're going to try to change options, just save a copy of the game as a backup and name it as such so you know that's what that save is for. Then go bold!

 

[Krombacher84]

hahaha then go bold... you made my day ^^
I dont know if I wanted to continue the same game if I play from 53xx something before christ till industrial or modern age and then see "Ok... its screwed up"... I am really afraid of this... I am playing the slowest speed on a really big map... XDDDD thats a lot of time invested ^^

I know I am a pest and want to know every bit in detail... but thats how I am, I just can say "Sorry" in advance XD

Because I have another question XD After the barb spawning rule was changed did someone of the devs play a fresh game and has a little experience about barb spawning as it is now at the moment?
Is it like back in V36 and before in quantity or are there less? or even more barbs what would you say? Just an educated guess or first hand experience... I am not that much Sheldon cooper to need exact values... BUT.... if you have numbers I'll take those XD

 

[Thunderbrd]

Because I have another question XD After the barb spawning rule was changed did someone of the devs play a fresh game and has a little experience about barb spawning as it is now at the moment?

No... too recent.

Is it like back in V36 and before in quantity or are there less? or even more barbs what would you say? Just an educated guess or first hand experience... I am not that much Sheldon cooper to need exact values... BUT.... if you have numbers I'll take those

It's not so easily compared to previous systems since it is an entirely new system since v36 (one of the main reasons for some savegame compatibility breaks).

There are global modifier numbers that can influence things. I'm thinking we need to tune it down a bit on the animals but getting some playthrough feedback from players would be great to have on spawning amounts, particularly as we're trying to get a nice enjoyable v38 out soon.

 

[Krombacher84]

Oh uhm honestly I like the animal spawning at the moment... there were a lot more animals in the past, at some point even so many that it did crash my game on such big maps, I think we did write about it with each other a whole while back and because of that I think the animal spawn rate was changed like 2 or 3 times. I am really happy with the current game... many animals like there would be in reallife and if you have hunters there is always something to do ^^ Not too many animals though for my taste... I think there will be still quite some animals getting really damn rare in the industrial age... so I would not go too low with animal spawning as there were quite many species intact back in those days... modern days of today are a whole other page as there went a lot of animal species basically extinct in the last 40 years or so.

But maybe you are right and it has to be toned down just a little tiny bit, when I have seen the impact of barb spawning... cause if I get something like 25% of animal pop on top as barbarians in numbers it might be just like the joker said "Sometimes a little push is all you need", and my game will do the whole Hindenburg Experience on me ^^

But if its just basically 100% animals + 5-10% of that amount (or even less?! idk) as barbs then its not a performance prob at all.

By the way I am so happy with that version right now... I just get crashes after playing for 8h or more on such huge maps with a lot of stuff going on and even using world builder a few times to monitor some stuff sometimes or to give a CPU some resource if they have poor starting locations. But I guess if I would not play with so many extreme settings it might not crash at all... its definitely a VRAM or RAM bottleneck I walk into sometimes, which is totally my own fault... like I said I am so happy about the magic you guys did do with that game. I think you guys should get mentioned more in the gaming community and the mod should be more known as its a thing a lot of people would like to play and quite some people are fed up with the trend of games dumbing down more and more... C2C is the total opposite... its always challenging to play it and thats what I like... even if you think "cool I can handle that AI pretty ok" then C2C comes around the other corner, clubing your head and telling you "Yeah but did you keep your crime rates in check you noob?" XD

I like that... its the most complete civ of all times and even the most complete Empire manager in general... I dont know anything more complex but in the same way enjoyable to play ^^

 

[Thunderbrd]

Thanks for your kind words. I read some more negative stuff yesterday so its good to hear. We certainly don't mind having folks spread the word!

 

[Krombacher84]

Thanks for your kind words. I read some more negative stuff yesterday so its good to hear. We certainly don't mind having folks spread the word!

What? Why? Here on the forums?
BTW I am not the only person I know that loves C2C a lot and those people could also never bother to play a new vanilla civ.... its C2C or Bust... for example my wife loves it a lot (she studied english and ethnology at the uni). She always bothers me "can you update my C2C also with the newest SVN?" XDDDD And its not that easy to get her interested in strategy games at all... at around christmas we run a test drive with stellaris multiplayer and rimworld sk hardcore mod with the multiplayer mod on top... I fear the worst for my endeavors as it is like I said for her "C2C or Bust" ^^

Btw... Years ago I tried to play C2C multiplayer on 2 PCs over LAN with my wife and it did always desync... so we had to play Hotseat which takes ages... is C2C now playable without desync or at least more stable in this regard? Cause I would like to also give that another try ^^

 

[Thunderbrd]

My wife and I haven't tried playing together much lately and its always easy to accidentally introduce a new OOS error spot but if its still as stable as it was last we tried, it should be playable. There are still some known OOS bugs to hunt down and once I get some other things stabilized here, going back on the hunt for more of those is a priority for me because we'd like to play a game ourselves soon. They're some of the toughest things to debug but its worth it when its done.

As to where... as you said, there is a larger gaming community out there. I've been pretty active on Twitter myself. (not just with C2C of course)

 

[Krombacher84]

Yeah but who is honestly such a monster and rubs "I dont like your mod" or something like that into a modders face?
Its worse enough for people that get payed to program games if people say "this **** sucks ass" about their work... but for modders... eh... I totally cant understand this.
There are just a few ways to do it the right way:

1. If you dont like a mod, stay away from it without demoralising the people working on it FOR FREE!!!
2. If you dont like some aspects of a mod try to mod it yourself to your flavor or ask politely if the mod authors could add it as a option or something like that...
3. If you like the mod, tell the creators... they work a lot for that mod to work in their unpaid freetime, just because they are fans of the game... thats a precious thing that can not be fostered and protected enough in my opinion.

I've seen a lot of good and already really great mods that still had a lot of promise with them getting even bigger and better and it was quite sometimes ruined by a toxic community and it angers me a lot. All this "Why is your 5gb big mod not updated yet" after the second day of a game patch coming out and that kind of crap... sure I also always have mods I am waiting on, sometimes for a long time, but I always think about the people behind it... cant blame them if they are fed up with that much work in their freetime if a community gets that toxic... and thats a real shame... everyone does lose if something like that happens... even the modders do lose, as they trash their project and maybe a while later they are biting their ass, cause they wanted to do so much more with it and are now unsatisfied because they did discontinue it, because of some run off the mill goons that had the loudest voices on the Internets...

That said.... I am so happy you guys did stick such a long time with C2C and I hope you will continue with it for a really long time... I can not imagine a civ-world without C2C... civ 5 or 6 could never replace this here... not even if you put them on "steroids" like the Batman-comic "Bane"... I know tons of mods for tons of games and there is nothing like C2C out there that I am aware of... its unique... its that one snowball that did not melt in hell... I dont know what to say on top of that so that you see how precious it is what you have created, even tho it does not feel so sometimes, because of some unsatisfied people. Its usually not even about the mod... people have their own problems which usually dont have to do anything with the place where they address them to ^^

 

[Thunderbrd]

I suppose when you're out wandering the web looking for commentary on your mod and you find the stuff that comes up in debates it's a little different than someone coming into the forum trashing things. Not that that hasn't happened too but usually folks are respectful here in our lair on CivFanatics.

Negative feedback can also galvanize us into making damn sure those flaws can't keep being brought up. Some things cannot be fixed overnight but we've done a lot to improve things I'd say and at this rate we may well end up making the points we set forth to make to the gaming community as a whole with this mod.

btw, as a comic fan, I'm loving the references!

 

[Krombacher84]

I suppose when you're out wandering the web looking for commentary on your mod and you find the stuff that comes up in debates it's a little different than someone coming into the forum trashing things. Not that that hasn't happened too but usually folks are respectful here in our lair on CivFanatics.

Negative feedback can also galvanize us into making damn sure those flaws can't keep being brought up. Some things cannot be fixed overnight but we've done a lot to improve things I'd say and at this rate we may well end up making the points we set forth to make to the gaming community as a whole with this mod.

btw, as a comic fan, I'm loving the references!

Yeah... its like in Minecraft... that one creeper that is sitting on your roof, waiting for you to leave your house... so he can finally ruin your day ^^
Or like in 7D2D its always that one zombie that somehow gets near you no matter what... if it shall happen in that moment, then it will happen... sometimes you can not even do ANYTHING about this.

I just hope you guys get never frustrated or demotivated too much by this... I am sure the biggest part of the people playing C2C is thankful and quite some people know how hard it must be sometimes to fix something... like those OOS errors you mentioned. I just sometimes change mods so they are a little more to my liking and one time back in the day I had my private "little" Ultima Online shard just as an experiment scape for me where I had custom ores and such... I could never code a mod from scratch or something like that... and I am like 20 years away from figuring out OOS errors XDDD But I know how difficult it must be, as you are basically hunting a ghost with a butterfly net and even if you made the impossible possible and you did see the ghost and somehow you caught it, even if it was like I did write IMPOSSIBLE... then you also have to put him into a glass jar and seal it... which is also impossible as a ghost is not some kind of matter ^^ At least thats how I think it is to hunt down OOS errors...

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah... its like in Minecraft... that one creeper that is sitting on your roof, waiting for you to leave your house... so he can finally ruin your day ^^
Or like in 7D2D its always that one zombie that somehow gets near you no matter what... if it shall happen in that moment, then it will happen... sometimes you can not even do ANYTHING about this.

I just hope you guys get never frustrated or demotivated too much by this... I am sure the biggest part of the people playing C2C is thankful and quite some people know how hard it must be sometimes to fix something... like those OOS errors you mentioned. I just sometimes change mods so they are a little more to my liking and one time back in the day I had my private "little" Ultima Online shard just as an experiment scape for me where I had custom ores and such... I could never code a mod from scratch or something like that... and I am like 20 years away from figuring out OOS errors XDDD But I know how difficult it must be, as you are basically hunting a ghost with a butterfly net and even if you made the impossible possible and you did see the ghost and somehow you caught it, even if it was like I did write IMPOSSIBLE... then you also have to put him into a glass jar and seal it... which is also impossible as a ghost is not some kind of matter ^^ At least thats how I think it is to hunt down OOS errors...

It's more like searching for that needle in a haystack by inspecting each straw in the stack one at a time and a needle can look exactly like a straw. You need to build a sensor to do it and build a unique (but they are cheaply made) one for each straw that you suspect is worthy of further analysis because it has a pointy end.

I don't get demoralized but some might. I'm too affixed to my goals here. But I do have some other goals in life that may eventually take more and more of my time than this. It's helpful to know folks appreciate the mod because it's really the reason to do it!

 

[JosEPh_II]

And then you have a grumpy , a low level modder on the team, that argues over Mod concepts to deal with too! And that can get irritated with players for wanting to constantly change how it works.

@Krombacher84,
Thank you for having this dialogue with T-brd. And Thank you and the Mrs. for playing this Mod.
@T-brd,
And Thank You for putting up with crusty bah humbug all these years!

 

[Raven Destroyer]

certain things will always have people on opposite ends of the spectrum which never truly get satisfied regardless of effort, I can only bring praise to the work that has been done, and the work that's being done right now,
So many things that most people believed impossible is mostly working as intended, which is just amazing, Yeah some things could use some (or a lot) of spit and polish, but it's a mod there will always be some rough edges, but comparing this to Vanilla is like comparing an old Mini Cooper to a Ferrari, C2C will just leave Vanilla in the dust,

on the regards of animals there will be always discussion, I personally would like an option to boost the land animals a bit in numbers,

in any case keep up the good work, Can't wait to see where things will be ending up a year from now, seeing the phenomenal work that has been done in the past one

 

[Thunderbrd]

The main criticism of this mod that I read out there is really mostly towards its entire intent. It's the arguments over whether more is more or... not. The amount of times I've seen someone referred to A New Dawn over complaints about complexity and slow turns and rough AI, 'outright chaos', and so on... SMH. I must admit, sometimes I feel the bug reports are just too neverending to ever get anything accomplished.

But you know the whole adage about eating an elephant. One bite at a time and all. So I've broken down the tasks as much as I can and it's been helping.